Quote:Hey! You don't respond to a post containing a link to information from 10/29/2015 with a post containing information from 2013. It's not yellow journalism. It is called the affects of time and economics upon unrealized plans and expectations. When you grasp those nuances then your Rep will go up.

My post was dripping with enough sarcasm to fill Charlie Weiss' belly.

With respect to the legal question, "is there a contigency in the GOR's such that the inability or unwillingness of ESPN to create an ACCN triggers a termination clause?"

The theory is that certain schools were induced into entering into the GOR's in exchange for the ACCN. Since revenue issues were being hotly debated at the Bd of Trusteee level when the GOR was signed, observers feel that such a provision would have been added prophylactically.

I chuckle at the intelligence of these observers, and of the admins whom they are observing.

(10-29-2015 09:19 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The way I read this is ESPN wants to sell the ACC Network bundled with its own renewal rights for ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and the SEC Network.

But the SEC Network launch last year was when ESPN renewed and sold the SEC Network bundled with their own channels. So I gotta ask ... just how long is that deal? Which expires first ... the ACC GOR in 2022(?) or the ESPN bundle? My guess is the former.

That makes at minimum 8 years of the SEC and B1G dropping 7 or even 8 figures more PER SCHOOL into the piggy bank. That's very bad for the stability of this conference as well as its ability to compete in the sports that matter.

The Mouse Fuhrer's price cutting measures at ESPN have scared them off of any investment without immediate ROI. They wildly overpaid for the NBA. They are probably overpaying for the NFL. And they are wildly overpaying their on-air "talent" and they have a wildly huge surplus of it since they insisted upon putting everybody they could find under contract to try to starve FS1 of talent when they launched.

As far as I'm concerned, the ACC Network is dead until further notice. But GTS, you're saying, they both want to do a network? And I'm saying you're looking at about a decade before that happens. A decade. Turn the clock back a decade and Miami/VT/BC are playing their first full ACC season. The WAC is still around. Alabama is in the toilet. The SEC East is dominant. The ACC just had a year in which they were the best conference in the Sagarin. Etc. College sports is moving fast. A decade is a LONG time. The SEC and B1G will grow tremendously more advantaged in the next few years. That's bad news for the Big 12 and now without a network bad news for the ACC.

It is difficult to imagine the Big 12 and ACC looking like they do today the exact same by the time the ESPN renewal window comes back up. If the ACC does get split up, partially liquidated, and partially merged among the AAC/B1G/SEC ... you can thank Swofford's chronic ineptitude at media rights negotiation for being the down fall. He set the dominoes of realignment into motion only to have other people hand him his *** at media rights negotiations.

Cable companies are finally listening to their customers. Suddenlink decided only get sports content for people who wants it. They are trying to get MLB Network. MLB Network wants a lot of money and forced it in every household. Suddenlink told them that there are only so many people wants it. The next time renewal contracts come about. Suddenlink will tell ESPN that the ACC, SEC, Longhorn Network and the Big 10 Network will be treated like the HBO of sports. If ESPN refuse and tried to force these channels? Cable companies will decide to drop ESPN completely. These suits at ESPN and other major cable channels are greedy trying to go after money when there is not the demand by everybody. We lost the Viacom channels because of ESPN.

(10-29-2015 11:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 10:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Thing is, for football, there really is no sense of a unified ACC. Fans care about their schools, but nobody cares about "the ACC". It's a sprawling disjointed polyglot.

Disagree. ACC identity and unity is South of DC. But FSU, Clemson, and increasingly GT are not content with in state SEC rivals getting a 7-8 figure annual advantage.

I partially agree. IMO, there is a core-ACC that consists of the 8 schools in Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia Tech that care about "ACC football" as such. The Florida schools do not, the ACC is just a convenient home so as to be in a Power conference.

Add it all together - the Florida schools and those north of DC, and that's a significant amount of disunity, IMO.

And yes, it's tough for schools like FSU, who already felt that they were falling behind the SEC revenue-wise, to see area schools like Florida, Georgia, and Auburn suddenly get a $10 million a year raise on top of that existing advantage via the SECN.

How much money is really needed to win in football? The ACC makes enough money to buy everything that you need to build a solid program. Isn't there a law of diminishing returns in this situation?

I fear that a few respectable schools in the ACC are about to get royally screwed in this whole deal.

(10-30-2015 01:37 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 09:19 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The way I read this is ESPN wants to sell the ACC Network bundled with its own renewal rights for ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and the SEC Network.

But the SEC Network launch last year was when ESPN renewed and sold the SEC Network bundled with their own channels. So I gotta ask ... just how long is that deal? Which expires first ... the ACC GOR in 2022(?) or the ESPN bundle? My guess is the former.

That makes at minimum 8 years of the SEC and B1G dropping 7 or even 8 figures more PER SCHOOL into the piggy bank. That's very bad for the stability of this conference as well as its ability to compete in the sports that matter.

The Mouse Fuhrer's price cutting measures at ESPN have scared them off of any investment without immediate ROI. They wildly overpaid for the NBA. They are probably overpaying for the NFL. And they are wildly overpaying their on-air "talent" and they have a wildly huge surplus of it since they insisted upon putting everybody they could find under contract to try to starve FS1 of talent when they launched.

As far as I'm concerned, the ACC Network is dead until further notice. But GTS, you're saying, they both want to do a network? And I'm saying you're looking at about a decade before that happens. A decade. Turn the clock back a decade and Miami/VT/BC are playing their first full ACC season. The WAC is still around. Alabama is in the toilet. The SEC East is dominant. The ACC just had a year in which they were the best conference in the Sagarin. Etc. College sports is moving fast. A decade is a LONG time. The SEC and B1G will grow tremendously more advantaged in the next few years. That's bad news for the Big 12 and now without a network bad news for the ACC.

It is difficult to imagine the Big 12 and ACC looking like they do today the exact same by the time the ESPN renewal window comes back up. If the ACC does get split up, partially liquidated, and partially merged among the AAC/B1G/SEC ... you can thank Swofford's chronic ineptitude at media rights negotiation for being the down fall. He set the dominoes of realignment into motion only to have other people hand him his *** at media rights negotiations.

Cable companies are finally listening to their customers. Suddenlink decided only get sports content for people who wants it. They are trying to get MLB Network. MLB Network wants a lot of money and forced it in every household. Suddenlink told them that there are only so many people wants it. The next time renewal contracts come about. Suddenlink will tell ESPN that the ACC, SEC, Longhorn Network and the Big 10 Network will be treated like the HBO of sports. If ESPN refuse and tried to force these channels? Cable companies will decide to drop ESPN completely. These suits at ESPN and other major cable channels are greedy trying to go after money when there is not the demand by everybody. We lost the Viacom channels because of ESPN.

Suddenlink just added the SECN and LHN last year. Maybe you want them to do that, but there's no basis for your opinion.

There are too many power teams imo for a P4. Not a good way to cobble them together to make sense (yes, 4 conferences of 16 could happen, but it would overlap, be a geographical mess, and politically not feasible).

If the ACC gets picked off for example, the only places that make sense financially are the SEC and B1G...that's only room for 4 teams. Maybe the B12 can take 4-6 or the ACC poach the B12 for replacement and growth but none of the schools would be excited by that scenario, nor would it be necessary.

Most likely, the B12 expands with 2 from the American and the ACC would backfill with the AAC creating a vacuum in the American and a domino effect in the G5. You're still left with a P5 but really a P3, mid 2, and G 4-5

(10-30-2015 08:07 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  How much money is really needed to win in football? The ACC makes enough money to buy everything that you need to build a solid program. Isn't there a law of diminishing returns in this situation?

I fear that a few respectable schools in the ACC are about to get royally screwed in this whole deal.

Let's give an example that pertains just to GT: Bobby Dodd Stadium. Being in the city of Atlanta it is subject to ATL code. That's a problem for a stadium built in the 1910's. It means if you touch ANY part of the stadium -- even just to renovate a bathroom -- BOOM you're subject to all Atlanta code for that entire standalone building. Which is why all the stands and buildings of BDS are deliberately separate, so that you only eat the renovation cost to meet code of just the piece you work on. I believe GT is still in debt from the HIDEOUS North Endzone expansion to appease O'Leary. A huge chunk of that cost was renovation of the entire East Stands to meet code. The club level was relatively cheap, and the North Endzone was cheap for the number of seats it added. The East Stands were expensive and actually had no net capacity increase ... just better facilities (bathrooms/concessions/etc).

For BDS to be brought into the modern era it would need to either go over Techwood Drive (which the city of Atlanta flat out refuses to allow happen) or they'd need a total demolition and rebuilding of not just the stadium but also the Bill Moore Student Success Center, Edge Center, Wardlaw Building, Lyman Hall, Emerson Building, and possibly even the Physics Lab on Bobby Dodd Way. You're talking a $500-$800m project. The GTAA is bankrupt*. Not only does it not have that ... it doesn't have much of anything these days. And the ACC payouts falling further and further behind UGAg and the SEC aren't helping things.

So there ya go. Almost A BILLION DOLLARS. Just for the football stadium. I'll grant you this is a unique challenge due to the nature of being shoehorned into downtown Atlanta, whereas a cow college can just pave over a corn field. But I'm sure GT isn't the only one with unusual facility challenges (the Carrier Dome's inflatable roof is becoming untenable on maintenance, for example)


* Dan Radakovich, former AD, built a ton of new facilities that were desperately needed. An on campus softball field (previously none). A renovated Alexander Memorial Coliseum (it needed constant repair, particularly the dome roof, and was inadequate. A renovated tennis court complex. An indoor practice facility. Some renovations to the baseball field. All this was put on credit card. Granted, at historically low interest, but still, it is debt that must be serviced. Also, they're still paying Paul Hewitt not to coach. Also, they only just in the last 24 months stopped paying Gailey to not coach. Also, they're about to pay Brian Gregory to not coach. And maybe Danny Hall too.

If you can't make things work financially making 20 million a year from your TV deal then that's a you problem. Houston built a brand new stadium, Cincy renovated the oldest stadium in the country that has zero space to work with, and Temple is potentially about to build a brand new stadium in Philly, and they are all doing it on AAC money.

(10-30-2015 09:25 AM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  If you can't make things work financially making 20 million a year from your TV deal then that's a you problem. Houston built a brand new stadium, Cincy renovated the oldest stadium in the country that has zero space to work with, and Temple is potentially about to build a brand new stadium in Philly, and they are all doing it on AAC money.

Let me know when you find examples that aren't also bankrupt, k?

Quote:Debt-ridden athletics department costs U. of Cincinnati students $1,000 each a year

Writing in CityBeat Cincinnati, the students uncovered a nearly $22 million “subsidy” from student fees and general-fund money that school officials gave to athletics in 2013, “to cover the difference between revenue and expenses”:

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/22381/

(10-30-2015 01:37 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 09:19 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The way I read this is ESPN wants to sell the ACC Network bundled with its own renewal rights for ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and the SEC Network.

But the SEC Network launch last year was when ESPN renewed and sold the SEC Network bundled with their own channels. So I gotta ask ... just how long is that deal? Which expires first ... the ACC GOR in 2022(?) or the ESPN bundle? My guess is the former.

That makes at minimum 8 years of the SEC and B1G dropping 7 or even 8 figures more PER SCHOOL into the piggy bank. That's very bad for the stability of this conference as well as its ability to compete in the sports that matter.

The Mouse Fuhrer's price cutting measures at ESPN have scared them off of any investment without immediate ROI. They wildly overpaid for the NBA. They are probably overpaying for the NFL. And they are wildly overpaying their on-air "talent" and they have a wildly huge surplus of it since they insisted upon putting everybody they could find under contract to try to starve FS1 of talent when they launched.

As far as I'm concerned, the ACC Network is dead until further notice. But GTS, you're saying, they both want to do a network? And I'm saying you're looking at about a decade before that happens. A decade. Turn the clock back a decade and Miami/VT/BC are playing their first full ACC season. The WAC is still around. Alabama is in the toilet. The SEC East is dominant. The ACC just had a year in which they were the best conference in the Sagarin. Etc. College sports is moving fast. A decade is a LONG time. The SEC and B1G will grow tremendously more advantaged in the next few years. That's bad news for the Big 12 and now without a network bad news for the ACC.

It is difficult to imagine the Big 12 and ACC looking like they do today the exact same by the time the ESPN renewal window comes back up. If the ACC does get split up, partially liquidated, and partially merged among the AAC/B1G/SEC ... you can thank Swofford's chronic ineptitude at media rights negotiation for being the down fall. He set the dominoes of realignment into motion only to have other people hand him his *** at media rights negotiations.

Cable companies are finally listening to their customers. Suddenlink decided only get sports content for people who wants it. They are trying to get MLB Network. MLB Network wants a lot of money and forced it in every household. Suddenlink told them that there are only so many people wants it. The next time renewal contracts come about. Suddenlink will tell ESPN that the ACC, SEC, Longhorn Network and the Big 10 Network will be treated like the HBO of sports. If ESPN refuse and tried to force these channels? Cable companies will decide to drop ESPN completely. These suits at ESPN and other major cable channels are greedy trying to go after money when there is not the demand by everybody. We lost the Viacom channels because of ESPN.

Here's the problem with your point about the cable companies. They can't drop sports, or treat them like HBO. The second ESPN, BTN, NBCSN, Fox, etc. become available as standalone subscriptions, the last major barrier to cord cutting is gone and huge numbers of additional people leave cable.

Nobody likes cable. They pay cable "tribute" to be allowed to see the content that cable has held hostage. Once that content is available directly through other means no one needs to pay the middleman anymore.

Well, Tulane had issues with developing their OCS. We had downsize the stadium to a meager 30k max capacity (23k chair-backs) due to city restrictions and NIMBY-types screaming about new development. Mind you, Tulane can pull around a city like New Orleans - Atlanta is too big and diverse for GT to do the same.

(OT: Our school also has some small budgeting issues that the new president is dealing with as well. Cowen didn't allocate money properly and was bad at his job.)

As for GT, I was not aware that it is THAT expensive to do anything in Atlanta. Sounds like a nightmare of a place to work if that's the case. Perhaps I am underestimating the maintenance costs of an expanded P5 athletics department. This is actually an aftershock of the arms race that started at a few places and is now forcing ADs that are NOT in positions to expand to do just that. It's a dangerous game.

As for the AAC examples, let's see how the money pans out for all of those. They could turn into white elephant projects for a few of those schools.

(10-30-2015 08:53 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-30-2015 08:07 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  How much money is really needed to win in football? The ACC makes enough money to buy everything that you need to build a solid program. Isn't there a law of diminishing returns in this situation?

I fear that a few respectable schools in the ACC are about to get royally screwed in this whole deal.

Let's give an example that pertains just to GT: Bobby Dodd Stadium. Being in the city of Atlanta it is subject to ATL code. That's a problem for a stadium built in the 1910's. It means if you touch ANY part of the stadium -- even just to renovate a bathroom -- BOOM you're subject to all Atlanta code for that entire standalone building. Which is why all the stands and buildings of BDS are deliberately separate, so that you only eat the renovation cost to meet code of just the piece you work on. I believe GT is still in debt from the HIDEOUS North Endzone expansion to appease O'Leary. A huge chunk of that cost was renovation of the entire East Stands to meet code. The club level was relatively cheap, and the North Endzone was cheap for the number of seats it added. The East Stands were expensive and actually had no net capacity increase ... just better facilities (bathrooms/concessions/etc).

For BDS to be brought into the modern era it would need to either go over Techwood Drive (which the city of Atlanta flat out refuses to allow happen) or they'd need a total demolition and rebuilding of not just the stadium but also the Bill Moore Student Success Center, Edge Center, Wardlaw Building, Lyman Hall, Emerson Building, and possibly even the Physics Lab on Bobby Dodd Way. You're talking a $500-$800m project. The GTAA is bankrupt*. Not only does it not have that ... it doesn't have much of anything these days. And the ACC payouts falling further and further behind UGAg and the SEC aren't helping things.

So there ya go. Almost A BILLION DOLLARS. Just for the football stadium. I'll grant you this is a unique challenge due to the nature of being shoehorned into downtown Atlanta, whereas a cow college can just pave over a corn field. But I'm sure GT isn't the only one with unusual facility challenges (the Carrier Dome's inflatable roof is becoming untenable on maintenance, for example)


* Dan Radakovich, former AD, built a ton of new facilities that were desperately needed. An on campus softball field (previously none). A renovated Alexander Memorial Coliseum (it needed constant repair, particularly the dome roof, and was inadequate. A renovated tennis court complex. An indoor practice facility. Some renovations to the baseball field. All this was put on credit card. Granted, at historically low interest, but still, it is debt that must be serviced. Also, they're still paying Paul Hewitt not to coach. Also, they only just in the last 24 months stopped paying Gailey to not coach. Also, they're about to pay Brian Gregory to not coach. And maybe Danny Hall too.

In hindsight, GT should have considered having a new football stadium built during the Olympics.

If you are defining "bankrupt" as needing to use student fees then you are gonna have a really short list of schools that aren't bankrupt.

(10-29-2015 11:05 PM)rednblackattack Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 11:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 09:25 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Atlantic Central Conference

full merger of the big 12 and ACC + uconn and cincy for 27 teams and 3 pods of 9 ++ convert the LHN into an ACCN.

Why not add Memphis for a fourth pod of seven to make it an even 28 teams?

Never on Memphis

why not Memphis??? The ACC taking Louisville was universally accepted as a sign the ACC is less strident about academics. Louisville sticks out like a sore thumb academically in the ACC. Might as well have 2 sore thumbs. Cheers!

Ultimately, I think the ACCN is a go but through the existing ESPN networks and ESPN3. It may not be a stand alone station. Cord cutters, reduction of cable subscribers, and streaming are going to dramatically change the cost of rights. The Big Ten and SEC were visionary. The PAC 12 took a chance by owning their network. The ACC is behind. The Big XII foolishly let Texas have their own network (and lost Nebraska, Texas A&M, and Missouri).

I hope that Youtube bids for a conference. Why else would anyone pay $10/month for their service?

ESPN is going to screw the ACC eventually soon as it makes business sense to do so. 4 conferences is a lot more tidy than 5 to deal with and pay. Consolidate reduce the mouths at the table to feed. ACC fed on the old Big East, destroyed it. Reincarnated at as the "American". Karma is a beach you wash up on.

(10-30-2015 09:55 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Well, Tulane had issues with developing their OCS. We had downsize the stadium to a meager 30k max capacity (23k chair-backs) due to city restrictions and NIMBY-types screaming about new development. Mind you, Tulane can pull around a city like New Orleans - Atlanta is too big and diverse for GT to do the same.

(OT: Our school also has some small budgeting issues that the new president is dealing with as well. Cowen didn't allocate money properly and was bad at his job.)

As for GT, I was not aware that it is THAT expensive to do anything in Atlanta. Sounds like a nightmare of a place to work if that's the case. Perhaps I am underestimating the maintenance costs of an expanded P5 athletics department. This is actually an aftershock of the arms race that started at a few places and is now forcing ADs that are NOT in positions to expand to do just that. It's a dangerous game.

As for the AAC examples, let's see how the money pans out for all of those. They could turn into white elephant projects for a few of those schools.

Atlanta is a nightmare to work with. A few years back the paper reported a business license that took 5 weeks in neighboring Cobb County (where the Braves are moving) took 42 weeks in the city of Atlanta.

(10-30-2015 10:20 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 11:05 PM)rednblackattack Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 11:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(10-29-2015 09:25 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Atlantic Central Conference

full merger of the big 12 and ACC + uconn and cincy for 27 teams and 3 pods of 9 ++ convert the LHN into an ACCN.

Why not add Memphis for a fourth pod of seven to make it an even 28 teams?

Never on Memphis

why not Memphis??? The ACC taking Louisville was universally accepted as a sign the ACC is less strident about academics. Louisville sticks out like a sore thumb academically in the ACC. Might as well have 2 sore thumbs. Cheers!

I just wish we could get a crack at Loserville on the gridiron this year. Would be fun to watch Lynch hang about 60 on them.

(10-30-2015 12:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-30-2015 09:55 AM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Well, Tulane had issues with developing their OCS. We had downsize the stadium to a meager 30k max capacity (23k chair-backs) due to city restrictions and NIMBY-types screaming about new development. Mind you, Tulane can pull around a city like New Orleans - Atlanta is too big and diverse for GT to do the same.

(OT: Our school also has some small budgeting issues that the new president is dealing with as well. Cowen didn't allocate money properly and was bad at his job.)

As for GT, I was not aware that it is THAT expensive to do anything in Atlanta. Sounds like a nightmare of a place to work if that's the case. Perhaps I am underestimating the maintenance costs of an expanded P5 athletics department. This is actually an aftershock of the arms race that started at a few places and is now forcing ADs that are NOT in positions to expand to do just that. It's a dangerous game.

As for the AAC examples, let's see how the money pans out for all of those. They could turn into white elephant projects for a few of those schools.

Atlanta is a nightmare to work with. A few years back the paper reported a business license that took 5 weeks in neighboring Cobb County (where the Braves are moving) took 42 weeks in the city of Atlanta.

I remember reading a saying that goes like this: "Modern day Atlanta is what 250,000 Confederates died to try to prevent."

(10-30-2015 10:11 AM)pirates4lyfe Wrote:  If you are defining "bankrupt" as needing to use student fees then you are gonna have a really short list of schools that aren't bankrupt.

A small student fee is one thing. But dinging students A GRAND a semester? And that's over, above, and on top of a 7 figure transfer from the academic side. That, my friend, is functionally bankrupt. Which is the state GT is in. It requires a 7-figure transfer out of academics. There are student fees but they are low three figures.

And I would agree -- MOST of FBS is functionally bankrupt. But at the clip the SEC and B1G are taking in TV dollars, they and almost only they will be able to avoid these problems.