(08-15-2004 02:52 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

Quote:I did not know that.

I stated, at the beginning, that I had no idea who she was.

Fair enough. Kind of surprised you've never heard of her, though, given your interest in the launch of Air America a while back. Her show, "Majority Report" (title referring to the neverending 2000 election, of course) is one of the main programs on AA.

Moreover, thus makes clearer my very first post in the thread, making an analogy to the reaction if a Bill O'Reilly made this sort of comment about a Democratic Afr-American.

Quote:Elder is way, way way out of step with the African-American community...

Yes, I submit that he IS out of step with the We-Need-Big-Spending-to-Survive mentality. But by the same token, isn't possible that members of the African-American Community could be too stubborn to entertain new ideas, as contradictory to the commonly accepted line of thinking, that may actually help them? By calling Elder an Uncle Tom and the like, the terms suggest Elder is merely "switching sides" and is being programmed by the White Establishment (whatever that is). The idea that Elder sees a method that could, in the long run, help everyone out - blacks and whites alike - is not even entertained and scoffed at by reverends and other self-appointed leaders. If he's not standing on a rooftop shouting 'poor me and my peoples', he's just labeled a sell-out.

Quote:...85 percent of which is going to vote against Bush this fall.

...

56 percent of whites identified this as a "big problem," or "somewhat of a problem."
83 percent of blacks identified this as a "big problem," or "somewhat of a problem."

Further, 52 percent of blacks felt so strongly about it, they identified it as a "big problem," versus just 24 percent of whites.

I realize and agree with your point about how most black people disagree with Elder's platform. I'm not arguing this.

But because x% majority believes something doesn't necessarily make it right. How many awful decisions made throughout history were approved by a majority percentage of the population? Hence, the dark side of majority-rule democracy. So, in the above example, I could simply provide the opinion that 83% of blacks polled are wrong, while 17% are right.

Now, let's check Elder's points out one by one.

Quote:1. Abolish the IRS and pass a national sales tax.

Sounds like a good idea worthy of discussion, even among the African-American community.

A VAT or national sales tax would translate into 'the more you buy, the more you pay taxes'. So, at the end of the day, the rich will still wind up paying more (and the idea has floated around that essentials like food would be exempt). Instead of penalizing hard work, an added sales tax penalizes your next luxury SUV or iPod purchase. This is similar to why I favor toll roads. If you choose to use a highway, you are directly going to contribute to its maintenance costs.

Quote:2. Reduce Government by 80 percent
3. End Welfare, Entitlements and Special Privileges

Aside from some affirmative action, which I understand, why is it automatically understood that certain minority groups need government handouts more than others? And why is this not an issue for, say, Asian groups? This is the cycle-rut I was talking about earlier. Perhaps Elder is getting tired of people equating "black" with "welfare and handouts" (FWIW, I'd prefer a reduction in government by 50 percent along with keeping modest welfare, and not the elimination of it)

And, by the way, let's call Special Privileges what it is: Racial discrimination. You may support these special entitlements and provide lucid arguments about why they should exist. But the fact - not opinion - is that this is providing a different service to different people based solely on the color of skin. It's the textbook defintion.

Quote:4. Abolish the Minimum Wage

Instead of a store hiring 2 black youths for $10 an hour (the usual suggestion by the Greens) and working them to the bone while 2 others remain unemployed, they can hire all 4 black youths for $5 an hour.

And don't you see the strange part about a third-party interfering with what two people mutually agree upon as conditions for work? If someone is willing to shovel snow off my driveway for $10, why should an outsider step in and insist I pay $20 (or get arrested)? Given this stipulation, I may wind up shoveling it myself because now the labor's worth is beyond what I was willing to buy it at, and the teenage worker is getting $0 instead of the $10 I was willing to pay him. All because the labor wage demand-supply was thrown out of whack by government.

Quote:5. Legalize Drugs

Thus, freeing thousands of black people out of prisons whose only original crime was to sell/smoke a little somethin' to get high. Also, by taking the sky-high profit out of dealing drugs, inner-city destructive street gangs look less and less desirable to join.

Watch the film Traffic. A must-see.

Quote:6. Take Government Out of Education

Thus allowing the parents flexibility to send their kids to the schools of their choice, if their local educational pen is a mess. Also, forcing the schools to be held accountable for their standards. (BTW, most who want gov't out of eduction still promote free education or money vouchers to those who cannot afford it) Schools would also be able to be flexible, without adhering to a one-size-fits-all form of rigid education cirriculum.

Quote:7. Drop the Davis-Bacon Act

Not sure what this even is. Too lazy to look it up right now. :D

Quote:8. Eliminate Corporate Taxes

...and thus raising employment.

Quote:9. Charity from People Not Government

It's a good adage to abide by. Charity groups (both secular and religious) are far more effective in collecting and distributing help than the government. And people are more willing to volunteer their help to area causes, while fed extractions-by-force are cold and distant. There's a reason why people have no problem emptying their wallets for a cause, but despise April 15.

Quote:10. End Protectionism

Therefore, it would allow for cheaper products at the local inner-city store.

Not to mention simply allowing people to choose what they want to buy and from whom. This rabid "Buy American and Buy Union, or You're A Traitor" thinking is complete bollocks.

Quote:That's a nutty agenda

It's only "nutty" because many people are completely sold on the "government service is enlightened, private or volunteer service is not" idea. While I don't fully subscribe to Elder's views - replace 'eliminate' with 'reduce' in his points to allign moreso with my thoughts - there are essays upon essays that provide good reasons why individual interaction and civil dynamics generally lead to a better system than central-statist wealth distribution by force.

Meanwhile, the EU's "non-nutty" agenda has resulted in consistent 10%+ unemployment rates, rationing and long waiting lists at hospitals, and budget woes and recessions that make ours look like a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Quote:-- far, far far to the right of President Bush

But it doesn't take much to be "right" of Bush. Bush has been a fiscal liberal, expanding government largess faster than any president before him, and rarely (if ever?) vetoes a spending bill. He's also not been shy about slapping tariffs and other protectionism on foreign goods to cater to domestic special interests. And there's the Medicare expansion and No Child Left Behind Act. This is far right?

Quote:Is it stiffling debate?

Yes.

Quote:Or is it simply shorthand for "Larry Elder is nuts" -- a conclusion most African-Americans would come to themselves after a close review of Elder's ten point plan?

At the risk of ruffling a few feathers here... no, most African-Americans haven't and won't take a close review of Elder's ten point plan. Simply hearing the three words "Cut Social Spending" is enough to conclude that Larry Elder is nuts without learning more about why he thinks the way he thinks.

For instance, on the surface, the idea of legalizing marijuana scares people more than a horror flick. But give me 15 minutes, and I can convince a good number of them to change their minds (and, just to clear any personal misconceptions, I don't touch the stuff).

Quote:This "all-for-one mentality," as you put it, also helped integrate America's schools, put an end to Jim Crow laws and restore the right to vote to millions of Americans.

The reality is, three hundred years of slavery and oppression has fused together a distinct sense of community, unity and shared values among African-Americans.

I agree with you here. But I'm referring to the dark side of the "all for one" mentality. When unity and shared values goes a bit too far. The suffocating peer pressure that disallows any opinion that is automatically viewed, rightly or wrongly, as an affront to "Our Race".

And there's this anti-establishment/anti-ambition atmosphere that tends to take over the ghetto. The idea of submitting to being destitute and adopting the victim status as a way of life. The extreme being that any black person who leaves the ghetto to make a good living, buy a nice car and condo, and live in a 'whiter' neighborhood is, in fact, considered Uncle Tom-ism. I've already written a short novel here, so I won't go into my first-hand account of my friend originally from Detroit who experienced this.

Quote:It is no more bigoted than the kind of stuff cranky ol' Bill Cosby has been saying lately -- which is to say, it ain't bigoted at all. It is simply part of the rhetorical debate within the African-American community.

Inferring that the Bush-Powell relationship is simply an 1800s slave-slaveowner relationship is a bigoted comment. Instead of merely criticizing Powell for not standing up to people within his own party (which is obviously widespread in politics), Belafonte decided to make skin color the issue. If Powell were white, it's just beltway politics. But since Powell is black, it must be a skin hue issue. The bigotry here is as clear as day.

Sorry for my long-windedness. Lots of topics in this thread.