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(10-17-2015 02:30 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear ESSSS,
All of those that were mentioned, if given some aid or help may be able to improve their standards and move up in society. Wouldn't that be better than to have a growing lower class? Why are you so against helping someone? What skin is it off of your nose anyway?

Bribing the poor to stay poor is not good for the poor, and it is even worse for our economy.

There is no shame in being or wanting to be weathy; even filthy rich. Indeed that is what drives and motivates in a capitalistic society. We shouldn't punnish those who dare to achieve the American dream. We should reward. It is immoral to take from someone who has earned and give it to someone who hasn't. Even if the person who hasn't has good reasons for needing it. It is virtuous for the person who has to share with someone who doesn't; that is called charity. When someone or something foces what you have out of your hands and decides what to do with it, that is called steeling.

No matter what the Dem's always say, the tax always seems to come out of my wallet; regardless of the tax bracket I have been in. bernie sanders free programs will not be paid for by The top 1% . those who work, those who save, those who invest, those who produce will pay for everything. And soon enough they will get sick of it, and even Democrats will say, "it wasn't supposed to work this way"

The closest prescription for the land of milk and honey is getting back to free enterprise capitalism, with limited regulations.

Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

Quote:Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

You either haven't read my responses closely, or you simply don't understand them.

Though government programs HAVE "changed or altered my life" I haven't expressed "worry" (or even concern) about any of them.

I simply asked you why you consider certain groups of people "working class", and not others.

You haven't responded yet.

(10-18-2015 09:31 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

You either haven't read my responses closely, or you simply don't understand them.

Though government programs HAVE "changed or altered my life" I haven't expressed "worry" (or even concern) about any of them.

I simply asked you why you consider certain groups of people "working class", and not others.

You haven't responded yet.

Now I get it. They either don't read responses closely or don't understand.

I would venture to guess that they read them close enough to understand. But they deflect because there isn't an adequate response to either persuade otherwise or simply justify the position.

Dear ESSS,
Go to page four, second response. I explain who the working class people are. So if someone is having reading or understanding problems it's not me.

Quote:Dear ESSS,
Go to page four, second response. I explain who the working class people are.

I'm not sure what they teach you at EMU.

But just saying something doesn't make it so.

I'll try one more time.

Quote:I simply asked you why you consider certain groups of people "working class", and not others.

Dear ESSSS,
Way back in this discussion you asked who I thought were working class people. I gave you my definition of whom I think they are. Now you want to argue my definition. If you want some kind of philosophical argument about working class people, I suggest you read Karl Marx, and see if that helps you. I was discussing political parties and what they have or have not done for the American people.
You have a belief, and I have a belief. If you believe that rich people should be able to hold onto all of their wealth, then so be it. I just disagree with that.

What am I missing here? Isn't Wikipedia working these days? There have been lengthy discussions about what defines the "middle class" or the "working class" throughout history.

To use it as a trump card challenge on a web board really rings hollow and insincere. Maybe the direction of this discussion should be to find common ground on what you think the class names are and how they're defined first?

Quote:Dear ESSSS,
Now you want to argue my definition. If you want some kind of philosophical argument about working class people, I suggest you read Karl Marx, and see if that helps you.

I haven't tried to argue about anything with you.

Before any meaningful discussion can be had, the involved parties need to define their terms.

A "list" is not a definition.

And for some reason, you still refuse to explain your use of the term "working class".

Maybe that's because you aren't capable of doing so.

I have better things to do with my time.

You might consider returning to the EMU board where I'm sure your level of discourse is more accepted.

Quote:What am I missing here? Isn't Wikipedia working these days? There have been lengthy discussions about what defines the "middle class" or the "working class" throughout history.

Wikipedia isn't involved in this discussion.

And there is no indication that KB has any understanding of what he means with HIS USE of this term.

Quote:Maybe the direction of this discussion should be to find common ground on what you think the class names are and how they're defined first?

I thought that's what I was doing.

(10-18-2015 09:16 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

Yes!! Every hour of every day my life is altered. I have far less to spend than I would but for government tax and spending, and while both parties have contributed to the socialistic trend in America over the past few decades, the democrats have led the charge. The fact that we have someone who proudly declares himself as a socialist, with a philosophy that would make Marx smile, leading the race for the dem nomination says it all.

(10-18-2015 12:46 PM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:Dear ESSSS,
Now you want to argue my definition. If you want some kind of philosophical argument about working class people, I suggest you read Karl Marx, and see if that helps you.

I haven't tried to argue about anything with you.

Before any meaningful discussion can be had, the involved parties need to define their terms.

A "list" is not a definition.

And for some reason, you still refuse to explain your use of the term "working class".

Maybe that's because your aren't capable of doing so.

I have better things to do with my time.

You might consider returning to the EMU board where I'm sure your level of discourse is more accepted.

No, no, no. Not so fast.

I have asked him to answer both my questions and take his lists and put them into questions.

I'm

(10-18-2015 02:42 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 09:16 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

Yes!! Every hour of every day my life is altered. I have far less to spend than I would but for government tax and spending, and while both parties have contributed to the socialistic trend in America over the past few decades, the democrats have led the charge. The fact that we have someone who proudly declares himself as a socialist, with a philosophy that would make Marx smile, leading the race for the dem nomination says it all.

Change it up, starting with our local court systems. Those employees should be part time at most. Some real world perspective would make a huge impact on the quality of work we get. Then move that model to the federal level.

Leverage that work above throughout the rest of the public sector and then we will have a society where government isn't the largest employer.

Be a great first step towards the goal of a more capitalistic society.

(10-18-2015 07:29 PM)rtletterman Wrote:  I'm

(10-18-2015 02:42 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 09:16 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

Yes!! Every hour of every day my life is altered. I have far less to spend than I would but for government tax and spending, and while both parties have contributed to the socialistic trend in America over the past few decades, the democrats have led the charge. The fact that we have someone who proudly declares himself as a socialist, with a philosophy that would make Marx smile, leading the race for the dem nomination says it all.

Change it up, starting with our local court systems. Those employees should be part time at most. Some real world perspective would make a huge impact on the quality of work we get. Then move that model to the federal level.

Leverage that work above throughout the rest of the public sector and then we will have a society where government isn't the largest employer.

Be a great first step towards the goal of a more capitalistic society.

Not surprisingly, you are one who would advocate eliminating the real core government functions like the courts in order to go forward with a socialist agenda. Capitalism requires the courts, but I know you already knew that comrad.

Even the most "progressive" Democrats from ages ago would be shocked and disappointed at what their party has become, and would never believe what the current candidates are proposing. Our founding fathers, on the other hand, would be demanding that we leave our rakes in the field and take arms. They would remind us that the purpose the second amendment was put in the Constitution wasn't to protect hunting rights or self defense.

I'm familiar with the west Michigan GOP the same types that gave us
Cindy Gamrat type state legislatures. Rage about the working poor and keep them down while we enjoy our business tax breaks that the rest of Michigan society pays for through higher income taxes. Tell others how to conduct themselves in their bedrooms but don't look under our sheets. Point the finger at those welfare types but keep dolling out those business tax breaks and job tax credits like candy and avoid free capitalism and competition. Socialism is when it someone else's pigs at the trough besides your own.

Socialism is the government mandated redistribution wealth. Snyder and the Michigan legislature have done that with their business tax cuts and raising individual state income taxes. You GOP types must be proud of your Komrades.

Full disclosure: I am on welfare. I work full-time, I conduct a lot of consulting worldwide, I’ve written five books, and I own multiple properties, yet I’m on welfare. How can that be? Well, every year that I file my taxes, my CPA asks the following questions that lead to government subsidies (welfare) that support my lifestyle:

1. Q: Would you like the government to reduce the interest that you pay on your mortgage?
A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for my house!

2. Q. Would you like the government to reduce the interest that you pay on your mortgage for your lake property? A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for my frivolous recreational lake house!

3. Q: Would you like the government to subsidize you and help pay for improvements and repairs on your rental property? Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for improvements and repairs on my rental property!

4. Q. Would you like the government to help pay for the computer, printer, webpage, cell phone, office supplies, books, car expenses, travel, hotels, client meals and entertainment and related business expenses from your consulting work? A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for all of those things and fatten up my wallet with OPM (other people’s money). I got about $36,000.00 in welfare last year from the government, and I was happy to take it.

Bottom line: this is a capitalist economy with voluminous examples of socialism from which we all benefit. I don’t really know what the big deal is with admitting that, nor admitting that the privileged class benefits more than those without privilege. With all of the great benefits that I get, I can hardly imagine what the very privileged individuals and corporations get in terms of welfare. For example, Obama paid lower tax rate than secretary.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/...secretary/

Quote:I work full-time, I conduct a lot of consulting worldwide, I’ve written five books, and I own multiple properties

How many hours do you work (on average) each week?

Did you work very hard to achieve your current professional and financial status?

(10-19-2015 05:39 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 07:29 PM)rtletterman Wrote:  I'm

(10-18-2015 02:42 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 09:16 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear brovol and ESSSS,
Can either of you really say that your lives have been changed or altered by government programs that were set up to help other Americans? You both worry too much about things that really have no effect on you. If you want to worry or complain about something I suggest that you be concerned about all the taxes that the huge corporations avoid every year with all their loopholes, thereby making the rest of us pay through the nose.

Yes!! Every hour of every day my life is altered. I have far less to spend than I would but for government tax and spending, and while both parties have contributed to the socialistic trend in America over the past few decades, the democrats have led the charge. The fact that we have someone who proudly declares himself as a socialist, with a philosophy that would make Marx smile, leading the race for the dem nomination says it all.

Change it up, starting with our local court systems. Those employees should be part time at most. Some real world perspective would make a huge impact on the quality of work we get. Then move that model to the federal level.

Leverage that work above throughout the rest of the public sector and then we will have a society where government isn't the largest employer.

Be a great first step towards the goal of a more capitalistic society.

Not surprisingly, you are one who would advocate eliminating the real core government functions like the courts in order to go forward with a socialist agenda. Capitalism requires the courts, but I know you already knew that comrad.

Even the most "progressive" Democrats from ages ago would be shocked and disappointed at what their party has become, and would never believe what the current candidates are proposing. Our founding fathers, on the other hand, would be demanding that we leave our rakes in the field and take arms. They would remind us that the purpose the second amendment was put in the Constitution wasn't to protect hunting rights or self defense.

Not a full time, bloated bureaucracy like we have now, with lawyers making laws, policies and procedures designed to line their pockets first, serve the citizens second. It's blatant justification of their own existence on a daily basis.

Good work if you can get it, trust me, I'm jealous.

(10-19-2015 09:48 AM)BCBronco Wrote:  Full disclosure: I am on welfare. I work full-time, I conduct a lot of consulting worldwide, I’ve written five books, and I own multiple properties, yet I’m on welfare. How can that be? Well, every year that I file my taxes, my CPA asks the following questions that lead to government subsidies (welfare) that support my lifestyle:

1. Q: Would you like the government to reduce the interest that you pay on your mortgage?
A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for my house!

2. Q. Would you like the government to reduce the interest that you pay on your mortgage for your lake property? A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for my frivolous recreational lake house!

3. Q: Would you like the government to subsidize you and help pay for improvements and repairs on your rental property? Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for improvements and repairs on my rental property!

4. Q. Would you like the government to help pay for the computer, printer, webpage, cell phone, office supplies, books, car expenses, travel, hotels, client meals and entertainment and related business expenses from your consulting work? A: Me: yeah, great, I’d love for the government to subsidize and help pay for all of those things and fatten up my wallet with OPM (other people’s money). I got about $36,000.00 in welfare last year from the government, and I was happy to take it.

Bottom line: this is a capitalist economy with voluminous examples of socialism from which we all benefit. I don’t really know what the big deal is with admitting that, nor admitting that the privileged class benefits more than those without privilege. With all of the great benefits that I get, I can hardly imagine what the very privileged individuals and corporations get in terms of welfare. For example, Obama paid lower tax rate than secretary.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/...secretary/

Well said.