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stever20 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
Of course Richmond's president would try to say that.

The thing is, fox would have some say in the matter- and I don't see Fox interested in Richmond whatsoever. I mean a Richmond/Georgetown game doesn't move the meter 1 centimeter.
09-29-2015 02:03 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 02:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Of course Richmond's president would try to say that.

The thing is, fox would have some say in the matter- and I don't see Fox interested in Richmond whatsoever. I mean a Richmond/Georgetown game doesn't move the meter 1 centimeter.

I think the two of you are mixing concepts.

You're saying that VCU is more popular than Richmond in the Richmond market, which is true.

He's saying that Richmond is alongside SLU and Dayton as a Big East candidate (as opposed to VCU), which is also likely true.

To me, institutional fit is going to trump all other issues in Big East expansion (just as it would for Big Ten or SEC expansion). If there isn't an institutional fit, then the school won't be added even if they bring all of the TV eyeballs in the world to Fox. That is the major problem with VCU's Big East candidacy. I know that plenty of people don't want to believe that institutional fit should be that important, but they're not the university presidents that are making the decisions.
09-29-2015 02:15 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 02:15 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 02:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Of course Richmond's president would try to say that.

The thing is, fox would have some say in the matter- and I don't see Fox interested in Richmond whatsoever. I mean a Richmond/Georgetown game doesn't move the meter 1 centimeter.

I think the two of you are mixing concepts.

You're saying that VCU is more popular than Richmond in the Richmond market, which is true.

He's saying that Richmond is alongside SLU and Dayton as a Big East candidate (as opposed to VCU), which is also likely true.

To me, institutional fit is going to trump all other issues in Big East expansion (just as it would for Big Ten or SEC expansion). If there isn't an institutional fit, then the school won't be added even if they bring all of the TV eyeballs in the world to Fox. That is the major problem with VCU's Big East candidacy. I know that plenty of people don't want to believe that institutional fit should be that important, but they're not the university presidents that are making the decisions.

That's why I think the AAC is making a huge strategic blunder. They will have a nice football league--maybe they even eventually get perceived as kind of a "tweener" league. But I doubt they can ever get to the point where people see it as a power football conference. But in basketball---they can add a few non-football schools and cement their position as a true basketball power conference. Add VCU, Wichita, and maybe one other A-10 school---and you have a VERY powerful basketball conference that can consistently spin off 4-6 bids a year--more on occasion. The Big East has taught us that there is media value in being a power basketball league. No reason not to be a power where you can. Improving the AAC basketball profile does not necessarily prevent it from continuing to develop as a football league. The two goals are not mutually exclusive (or at least they need not be).
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2015 02:31 PM by Attackcoog.)
09-29-2015 02:28 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.
09-29-2015 04:28 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 02:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Of course Richmond's president would try to say that.

The thing is, fox would have some say in the matter- and I don't see Fox interested in Richmond whatsoever. I mean a Richmond/Georgetown game doesn't move the meter 1 centimeter.

Richmond has been solid for a long time, longer than VCU.

And they are private.
09-29-2015 04:33 PM
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Jet915 Offline
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(09-28-2015 09:44 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I'm basically in agreement with the video commentary from the OP - SLU and Dayton are probably the top options if the Big East were to expand today, with Davidson, Richmond and VCU being the alternatives. I would consider SLU to be a lock in any future expansion because they hit all of the metrics that have mattered the most in conference realignment: TV market, academic profile, institutional fit, etc. It would be better if they were on more of an upswing on-the-court, but the Big East is in the position where it's looking for long-term marriages, so the off-the-court metrics matter much more. Dayton has performed better on-the-court and has one of theb best fan bases in college basketball, but their location being so close to Xavier is going to be a major negative (even though Dayton is technically a separate TV market from Cincinnati). There's also the issue of the Big East schools wanting balance between Eastern schools and Midwestern schools.

IMHO, Davidson is really on the upswing. They adjusted well to moving up to the A-10 last year, it's a legitimately elite academic institution with massive wealth, it's located in the Charlotte TV market, it opens up the state of North Carolina for recruiting and it's an Eastern-based school that would make Georgetown happy. (When it comes to the Big East expansion, Georgetown and Marquette are going to be the most important decision-makers.) It also doesn't hurt that Steph Curry is a walking billboard for that school right now for future recruits. (That's not to say that Davidson is competing with UNC and Duke for top players, but I feel that the school can get guys that can compete well in the Big East long-term.) The only negative that I see is how small the school is enrollment-wise, but I've always felt that sheer enrollment is an overrated factor by fans in conference realignment, particularly when dealing with a private school league like the Big East where its viewership generally comes from outside of its own alumni base. Dave Gavitt put together the Big East nearly 4 decades ago almost entirely based on TV interests, and that continues to this day.

Richmond has a lot of the attributes that Davidson has - the main differences are that Richmond is a larger school but in not-quite-as-good of a TV market and location. VCU has little chance of getting into the Big East with it being a public university, although it at least has the argument that it is really similar institutionally as a lot of Big East schools as a major urban university (similar to DePaul and St. John's except that it happens to be a public school). Wichita State has ZERO chance of getting into the Big East - there is absolutely no institutional fit there at all. (That is a pure fan-based wish that ignores all of the off-the-field/court factors that drive conference realignment. It would be akin to saying that Boise State ought to be getting an invite from the Pac-12 soon, which we know won't happen no matter how many wins the Broncos might have.)

I agree with most of what you said here but I can't imagine Davidson being an option. Charlotte is a nice city to be in but their enrollment is like less than a 1000 students. They are one of the smallest D1 schools out there. Is anyone is Charlotte really aware of them other than Steph Curry is an alum?
09-29-2015 06:36 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-28-2015 02:12 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(09-28-2015 11:23 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  St, Louis makes sense because it adds a new TV market, while having history with DePaul and Marquette.

Dayton is to close to Xavier and does not add any TV market value. I think they are a no go.

VCU is a good choice and a competitive basketball program. They are the second best basketball program in the state of Virginia behind UVA. They would add a good share of the Virginia TV market.

So I would add St.Louis and VCU. 07-coffee3
Denver has poured money into its baskets program, but hasn't seen results yet.

Denver would be a travel partner for St Louis or Creighton. DU is already in the Big East in lax, and is also a perennial power in ice hockey and was national champions in men's lax. Denver doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Denver basketball has never even been to one basketball NCAA tournament EVER.
09-29-2015 06:38 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....
09-29-2015 06:40 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 01:30 PM)bostonspider Wrote:  If you added a "western" and "eastern" team and moved to a two division 16 game schedule, then all the traditional Big East teams would still be playing home and homes. And you would add 6 more games to Fox Sports inventory (16x6=96 versus 18x5=90).

It was made very clear to me during the formation of the new Big EAst by Marquette posters that home-and-homes with the East Coast schools were VERY important to Marquette (and DePaul).

You could actually go with a two-division 18 game schedule (home-and-home in your division, 2 cross-division home-and-homes, 2 cross-division road games and 2 cross-division home games). So you'd see and visit the cross-division rivals 2 years out of 3. Still no dice.
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?
09-29-2015 07:00 PM
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CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?
Since the WCC is an ESPN property, Fox could come in and gut it to the point where there would be little value left, and little opportunity for recovery.

Gonzaga/Portland
San Francisco/St. Mary's
St. Louis/Creighton
Marquette/DePaul
Providence/Villanova
Seton Hall/St. John's
Georgetown/Richmond
Xavier/Butler

If Fox really wanted to screw with ESPN, it could get the Big East to add BYU (with Denver as #18), then give BYU football a Notre Dame-style TV deal among the Fox platforms.

The WCC would then have six members, and would probably take Grand Canyon (the last private school available) and then work on transitioning a school from Division II since all the remaining WAC schools are public. The WAC is down to six members, and works on trying to get two schools to leave the Summit and/or Southland (probably Omaha and Texas A&M-Corpus Christi), and with Grand Canyon gone, could even make a play for Texas-Arlington and Little Rock.
09-29-2015 08:33 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 08:33 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?
Since the WCC is an ESPN property, Fox could come in and gut it to the point where there would be little value left, and little opportunity for recovery.

Gonzaga/Portland
San Francisco/St. Mary's
St. Louis/Creighton
Marquette/DePaul
Providence/Villanova
Seton Hall/St. John's
Georgetown/Richmond
Xavier/Butler

If Fox really wanted to screw with ESPN, it could get the Big East to add BYU (with Denver as #18), then give BYU football a Notre Dame-style TV deal among the Fox platforms.

The WCC would then have six members, and would probably take Grand Canyon (the last private school available) and then work on transitioning a school from Division II since all the remaining WAC schools are public. The WAC is down to six members, and works on trying to get two schools to leave the Summit and/or Southland (probably Omaha and Texas A&M-Corpus Christi), and with Grand Canyon gone, could even make a play for Texas-Arlington and Little Rock.

Fox/Big East could effectively gut the WCC just by taking Gonzaga, immediately turning it into a one-bid league (especially if that drives BYU out). I can't imagine San Francisco or Portland doing much for them, and St. Mary's wouldn't exactly be a Gonzaga travel partner.

I presume that if Gonzaga ever leaves the WCC, Seattle immediately gets the call. I remember reading that Gonzaga has been the main/only reason Seattle hasn't already been invited. Grand Canyon as a for-profit school probably would not pass muster with the largely-Catholic WCC; they'd take Seattle and hold steady or take Denver if BYU also left.
09-29-2015 09:04 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 09:04 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 08:33 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?
Since the WCC is an ESPN property, Fox could come in and gut it to the point where there would be little value left, and little opportunity for recovery.

Gonzaga/Portland
San Francisco/St. Mary's
St. Louis/Creighton
Marquette/DePaul
Providence/Villanova
Seton Hall/St. John's
Georgetown/Richmond
Xavier/Butler

If Fox really wanted to screw with ESPN, it could get the Big East to add BYU (with Denver as #18), then give BYU football a Notre Dame-style TV deal among the Fox platforms.

The WCC would then have six members, and would probably take Grand Canyon (the last private school available) and then work on transitioning a school from Division II since all the remaining WAC schools are public. The WAC is down to six members, and works on trying to get two schools to leave the Summit and/or Southland (probably Omaha and Texas A&M-Corpus Christi), and with Grand Canyon gone, could even make a play for Texas-Arlington and Little Rock.

Fox/Big East could effectively gut the WCC just by taking Gonzaga, immediately turning it into a one-bid league (especially if that drives BYU out). I can't imagine San Francisco or Portland doing much for them, and St. Mary's wouldn't exactly be a Gonzaga travel partner.

I presume that if Gonzaga ever leaves the WCC, Seattle immediately gets the call. I remember reading that Gonzaga has been the main/only reason Seattle hasn't already been invited. Grand Canyon as a for-profit school probably would not pass muster with the largely-Catholic WCC; they'd take Seattle and hold steady or take Denver if BYU also left.

Grand Canyon apparently is transitiong back to a non-profit university, so I'd believe that the proposed non-denominational status would pass muster. Oh, and if Fox ever encouraged the Big East to go West, you you darn well that ESPN would retaliate.
09-29-2015 09:26 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 06:36 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-28-2015 09:44 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I'm basically in agreement with the video commentary from the OP - SLU and Dayton are probably the top options if the Big East were to expand today, with Davidson, Richmond and VCU being the alternatives. I would consider SLU to be a lock in any future expansion because they hit all of the metrics that have mattered the most in conference realignment: TV market, academic profile, institutional fit, etc. It would be better if they were on more of an upswing on-the-court, but the Big East is in the position where it's looking for long-term marriages, so the off-the-court metrics matter much more. Dayton has performed better on-the-court and has one of theb best fan bases in college basketball, but their location being so close to Xavier is going to be a major negative (even though Dayton is technically a separate TV market from Cincinnati). There's also the issue of the Big East schools wanting balance between Eastern schools and Midwestern schools.

IMHO, Davidson is really on the upswing. They adjusted well to moving up to the A-10 last year, it's a legitimately elite academic institution with massive wealth, it's located in the Charlotte TV market, it opens up the state of North Carolina for recruiting and it's an Eastern-based school that would make Georgetown happy. (When it comes to the Big East expansion, Georgetown and Marquette are going to be the most important decision-makers.) It also doesn't hurt that Steph Curry is a walking billboard for that school right now for future recruits. (That's not to say that Davidson is competing with UNC and Duke for top players, but I feel that the school can get guys that can compete well in the Big East long-term.) The only negative that I see is how small the school is enrollment-wise, but I've always felt that sheer enrollment is an overrated factor by fans in conference realignment, particularly when dealing with a private school league like the Big East where its viewership generally comes from outside of its own alumni base. Dave Gavitt put together the Big East nearly 4 decades ago almost entirely based on TV interests, and that continues to this day.

Richmond has a lot of the attributes that Davidson has - the main differences are that Richmond is a larger school but in not-quite-as-good of a TV market and location. VCU has little chance of getting into the Big East with it being a public university, although it at least has the argument that it is really similar institutionally as a lot of Big East schools as a major urban university (similar to DePaul and St. John's except that it happens to be a public school). Wichita State has ZERO chance of getting into the Big East - there is absolutely no institutional fit there at all. (That is a pure fan-based wish that ignores all of the off-the-field/court factors that drive conference realignment. It would be akin to saying that Boise State ought to be getting an invite from the Pac-12 soon, which we know won't happen no matter how many wins the Broncos might have.)

I agree with most of what you said here but I can't imagine Davidson being an option. Charlotte is a nice city to be in but their enrollment is like less than a 1000 students. They are one of the smallest D1 schools out there. Is anyone is Charlotte really aware of them other than Steph Curry is an alum?

It's like closer to 2000 students. That was discussed earlier in the thread.
09-29-2015 10:38 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 06:38 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-28-2015 02:12 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(09-28-2015 11:23 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  St, Louis makes sense because it adds a new TV market, while having history with DePaul and Marquette.

Dayton is to close to Xavier and does not add any TV market value. I think they are a no go.

VCU is a good choice and a competitive basketball program. They are the second best basketball program in the state of Virginia behind UVA. They would add a good share of the Virginia TV market.

So I would add St.Louis and VCU. 07-coffee3
Denver has poured money into its baskets program, but hasn't seen results yet.

Denver would be a travel partner for St Louis or Creighton. DU is already in the Big East in lax, and is also a perennial power in ice hockey and was national champions in men's lax. Denver doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Denver basketball has never even been to one basketball NCAA tournament EVER.

Indeed has never been to one ever. Wait a second. Does that mean they've been to one? Regardless, they've only been Division 1 for about a dozen years. They do have a great arena and decent fan support. They averaged 3,119 per game in 2014. For comparison sake, WCC average was 4,111 and MVC was 5100. What Denver does have that makes them appealing is a very good all around sports program and one of the largest athletic budgets for non-football playing schools. They've led the Director's Cup, which awards points for NCAA appearances and success, for non-football playing D1 programs for something like 5 years running. They'd be a great add to MVC, WCC, or the Big East. Geography is the trick.
09-29-2015 10:46 PM
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "basketball-only" membership - unlike football, a school must place all of its sports into the same conference where its a basketball member (assuming that the conference sponsors a sport - i.e. Arizona State can place its hockey team in the Big Ten or NCHC because the Pac-12 doesn't sponsor the sport).

So, you can't just look at it as Gonzaga just being a men's basketball-only member in the Big East, where you could conceivably make the argument that it's "only" one trip to the West Coast per year taking a direct charter jet. You have multiply those trips to the West Coast for all of the non-revenue sports where they have to fly commercial where they almost assuredly have to make connecting flights because Spokane is such a small airport and/or fly into a place like Seattle and then drive several hours. That's simply untenable.

People make such a big deal out of "bad geography" when we're talking about the Big Ten adding Rutgers and Maryland or the SEC adding Missouri, but those were all contiguous additions to those leagues' existing footprints. In contrast, Gonzaga in the Big East is BAD GEOGRAPHY, and BAD GEOGRAPHY invites instability (which is exactly what the Catholic 7 were running away from). Even West Virginia in the Big 12 is a cakewalk geographically by comparison.

Maybe the Big East schools can make a concerted effort to schedule a few games with Gonzaga in the non-conference season, but making them a member is an entirely different matter altogether. University presidents are willing to stretch geographic boundaries, but not completely obliterate them.
09-30-2015 11:22 AM
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Post: #77
RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-30-2015 11:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "basketball-only" membership - unlike football, a school must place all of its sports into the same conference where its a basketball member (assuming that the conference sponsors a sport - i.e. Arizona State can place its hockey team in the Big Ten or NCHC because the Pac-12 doesn't sponsor the sport).

So, you can't just look at it as Gonzaga just being a men's basketball-only member in the Big East, where you could conceivably make the argument that it's "only" one trip to the West Coast per year taking a direct charter jet. You have multiply those trips to the West Coast for all of the non-revenue sports where they have to fly commercial where they almost assuredly have to make connecting flights because Spokane is such a small airport and/or fly into a place like Seattle and then drive several hours. That's simply untenable.

People make such a big deal out of "bad geography" when we're talking about the Big Ten adding Rutgers and Maryland or the SEC adding Missouri, but those were all contiguous additions to those leagues' existing footprints. In contrast, Gonzaga in the Big East is BAD GEOGRAPHY, and BAD GEOGRAPHY invites instability (which is exactly what the Catholic 7 were running away from). Even West Virginia in the Big 12 is a cakewalk geographically by comparison.

Maybe the Big East schools can make a concerted effort to schedule a few games with Gonzaga in the non-conference season, but making them a member is an entirely different matter altogether. University presidents are willing to stretch geographic boundaries, but not completely obliterate them.

From what I can tell, Gonzaga plays six Big East-sponsored sports (men's/women's basketball, men's/women's soccer, baseball, women's volleyball) that involve full conference schedules (they also have cross country, but there's only the one conference meet). Obviously there's more financial considerations than if it were just men's basketball, but it's certainly feasible.

The Big East has already obliterated geographic boundaries with schools in Illinois, Wisconsin and now Nebraska. Now it's a matter of what degree are they willing to expand them? And is Gonzaga enough of a basketball asset and institutional fit to make the extra miles worth it? I say yes, understanding that it may well never happen.

Let's put it this way: Gonzaga gets in before VCU.
09-30-2015 12:50 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-30-2015 12:50 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-30-2015 11:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 04:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I read Gonzaga and St. Mary's Cal. is on the Big East's expansion Candidates. Seattle/Spokane markets and San Francisco. If those to do move? BYU might go back all in the MWC, or move their Olympic sports into the WAC.

I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "basketball-only" membership - unlike football, a school must place all of its sports into the same conference where its a basketball member (assuming that the conference sponsors a sport - i.e. Arizona State can place its hockey team in the Big Ten or NCHC because the Pac-12 doesn't sponsor the sport).

So, you can't just look at it as Gonzaga just being a men's basketball-only member in the Big East, where you could conceivably make the argument that it's "only" one trip to the West Coast per year taking a direct charter jet. You have multiply those trips to the West Coast for all of the non-revenue sports where they have to fly commercial where they almost assuredly have to make connecting flights because Spokane is such a small airport and/or fly into a place like Seattle and then drive several hours. That's simply untenable.

People make such a big deal out of "bad geography" when we're talking about the Big Ten adding Rutgers and Maryland or the SEC adding Missouri, but those were all contiguous additions to those leagues' existing footprints. In contrast, Gonzaga in the Big East is BAD GEOGRAPHY, and BAD GEOGRAPHY invites instability (which is exactly what the Catholic 7 were running away from). Even West Virginia in the Big 12 is a cakewalk geographically by comparison.

Maybe the Big East schools can make a concerted effort to schedule a few games with Gonzaga in the non-conference season, but making them a member is an entirely different matter altogether. University presidents are willing to stretch geographic boundaries, but not completely obliterate them.

From what I can tell, Gonzaga plays six Big East-sponsored sports (men's/women's basketball, men's/women's soccer, baseball, women's volleyball) that involve full conference schedules (they also have cross country, but there's only the one conference meet). Obviously there's more financial considerations than if it were just men's basketball, but it's certainly feasible.

The Big East has already obliterated geographic boundaries with schools in Illinois, Wisconsin and now Nebraska. Now it's a matter of what degree are they willing to expand them? And is Gonzaga enough of a basketball asset and institutional fit to make the extra miles worth it? I say yes, understanding that it may well never happen.

Let's put it this way: Gonzaga gets in before VCU.

But it's NOT obliterating geographic boundaries. Many people here make a big distinction between the East Coast and Midwest in our brains because of cultural differences, but in terms of sheer mileage, it's still manageable overall (i.e. around 2 hours on a plane and generally accessible by direct flights). This is quite different than flying (a) cross-country to a airport hub like Seattle for 6 hours and (b) THEN having to drive over 4 more hours to Spokane after that. A lot of fans tend to overrate how far apart the Eastern and Midwestern schools are from each other while underrating how far apart all of the Western schools are from each other (especially the ones that aren't near a major international airport, such as Gonzaga is with Spokane).

I know that university presidents pay only cursory lip service to student-athlete concerns (and I call them out on their hypocrisy as much as anyone), but even they understand that any of the East Coast-based Big East schools going to Spokane is an insane trip to have to make every year for non-revenue sports.
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2015 01:22 PM by Frank the Tank.)
09-30-2015 01:21 PM
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Post: #79
RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
I would say the other thing about Gonzaga is the time zone difference. If a Big East school played at Gonzaga on Saturday night at 8pm local time- game ends at 10pm local. By the time they got back to lets say DC it would be like noon on Sunday. How would a kid be able to handle a 8am class Monday morning?
09-30-2015 01:23 PM
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Post: #80
RE: CBS Sports College Hoops Mailbag: Big East Expansion?
(09-30-2015 01:21 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-30-2015 12:50 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-30-2015 11:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 07:00 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(09-29-2015 06:40 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  I'd like Gonzaga/BYU added to the Big East. Gonzaga is a top flight program and BYU has a huge following. Gonzaga AD in the past has said they they are interested. The east coast Big East presidents are not though....

That I don't get. It's only one trip to the West Coast every season, and probably not even that since the double round-robin would surely be gone with expansion past 10, and the East Coast teams likely would not see a yearly home-and-home with them. If Gonzaga is willing to take a few trips to the Midwest and occasionally the East Coast, why not?

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "basketball-only" membership - unlike football, a school must place all of its sports into the same conference where its a basketball member (assuming that the conference sponsors a sport - i.e. Arizona State can place its hockey team in the Big Ten or NCHC because the Pac-12 doesn't sponsor the sport).

So, you can't just look at it as Gonzaga just being a men's basketball-only member in the Big East, where you could conceivably make the argument that it's "only" one trip to the West Coast per year taking a direct charter jet. You have multiply those trips to the West Coast for all of the non-revenue sports where they have to fly commercial where they almost assuredly have to make connecting flights because Spokane is such a small airport and/or fly into a place like Seattle and then drive several hours. That's simply untenable.

People make such a big deal out of "bad geography" when we're talking about the Big Ten adding Rutgers and Maryland or the SEC adding Missouri, but those were all contiguous additions to those leagues' existing footprints. In contrast, Gonzaga in the Big East is BAD GEOGRAPHY, and BAD GEOGRAPHY invites instability (which is exactly what the Catholic 7 were running away from). Even West Virginia in the Big 12 is a cakewalk geographically by comparison.

Maybe the Big East schools can make a concerted effort to schedule a few games with Gonzaga in the non-conference season, but making them a member is an entirely different matter altogether. University presidents are willing to stretch geographic boundaries, but not completely obliterate them.

From what I can tell, Gonzaga plays six Big East-sponsored sports (men's/women's basketball, men's/women's soccer, baseball, women's volleyball) that involve full conference schedules (they also have cross country, but there's only the one conference meet). Obviously there's more financial considerations than if it were just men's basketball, but it's certainly feasible.

The Big East has already obliterated geographic boundaries with schools in Illinois, Wisconsin and now Nebraska. Now it's a matter of what degree are they willing to expand them? And is Gonzaga enough of a basketball asset and institutional fit to make the extra miles worth it? I say yes, understanding that it may well never happen.

Let's put it this way: Gonzaga gets in before VCU.

But it's NOT obliterating geographic boundaries. Many people here make a big distinction between the East Coast and Midwest in our brains because of cultural differences, but in terms of sheer mileage, it's still manageable overall (i.e. around 2 hours on a plane and generally accessible by direct flights). This is quite different than flying (a) cross-country to a airport hub like Seattle for 6 hours and (b) THEN having to drive over 4 more hours to Spokane after that. A lot of fans tend to overrate how far apart the Eastern and Midwestern schools are from each other while underrating how far apart all of the Western schools are from each other (especially the ones that aren't near a major international airport, such as Gonzaga is with Spokane).

I know that university presidents pay only cursory lip service to student-athlete concerns (and I call them out on their hypocrisy as much as anyone), but even they understand that any of the East Coast-based Big East schools going to Spokane is an insane trip to have to make every year for non-revenue sports.

But again, how often are the East Coast teams going to Spokane? I think it's safe to presume that Gonzaga's addition would mean the Big East was going to at least 12, which means no double-round robin and thus either divisions or pods. In either case, the East Coast teams would make the cross-country trip once every other year, or maybe three years out of five. Plus, assuming that they don't charter, they'd fly to Spokane with a layover instead of trying to bus from Seattle.

I'm well aware how far Spokane is from the major East Coast cities (3,000 miles, give or take). But it's not as though these schools don't play on the West Coast (hell, Villanova's playing Oklahoma in Pearl Harbor this season). I think the benefits in terms of further establishing the Big East as a national conference while not conceding institutional fitness far outstrip the costs of adding a couple of West Coast trips to the schedule.
09-30-2015 02:57 PM
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