I would like to raise several points re: capacity.

Where will the students sit? How much seating for students? How much seating for the buying public?

What happens when a student can’t get into a game due to limited capacity? Does that student get a refund on a portion of that student’s athletic fees?

The Hall has always had a capacity larger than the size of the undergraduate student body. It seems to me that a 4,500 capacity, split between students and the buying public, creates some issues.

I will close with this stink grenade. Are the students being moved to behind the basket? Is the student lounge a shiny object to distract students from the fact that their seat allotment is being slashed drastically, and that their sideline seating will disappear?

And if the student seating is not being affected, well, that doesn’t leave many seats for the buying public, if capacity is to be 4,500.

It is an absolute shame that this project, so sorely needed, has a “capacity” issue, perceived by long-time stakeholders and alumni, and perhaps not realized by those “newbies”, consultants or otherwise, who may fail to think this through.

Why is it that those who want to go to the Dance also have no problem with shrinkage of the Hall? When the Dance is made, Nirvana will be achieved (tic), and a 4,500 building will not cut it.

Never lose sight of the fact that the ability of William and Mary to fit its entire student body in the Hall is a feature that many schools do not have, and would love to have. Throwing that away “to create demand” for men’s basketball tickets, in my view, goes against the core mission of the College.

(02-04-2020 07:22 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  All this speculation on the seating of which nobody on this board is certain. We should be reveling in this terrific new complex that is going to be a showplace after years of complaining about our current facility. Whatever the capacity, it will be a great addition.

Unremarkable post.

Ok, so if it seats 500 people, it will be a great addition? Whatever the capacity, right? No, not right...it needs to accommodate our fanbase and that of visiting fans. There's a reason I don't drive a '63 vette.

Try to push down the relentless desire to tow the company line, Bubba. I think everyone on this board is 100% behind better facilities...we just want it to be an acceptable layout in 15 years, too.

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(02-04-2020 09:22 AM)nj alum Wrote:  I would like to raise several points re: capacity.

Where will the students sit? How much seating for students? How much seating for the buying public?

The students will be seated where the Precarious Pavilion is now, from what I have heard.

(02-04-2020 10:17 AM)TribePride52 Wrote:  The students will be seated where the Precarious Pavilion is now, from what I have heard.

Capacity aside (which is still a major issue), I think this is the right location for the student section. It's generally more impactful than sideline seats and in line with many other schools. I remember as a student we convinced the AD to let us have behind the basket bleachers set up for students. So I think that's a move in the right direction.

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Students should definitely be under the basket, as virtually every major program in the country does to create maximum atmosphere.

And while I still don't believe the capacity is only going to be 4,500 as that just doesn't add up with the pictures released (and would support it being about 5,500) - even if it were, we are leading the CAA in attendance this year and if we had a 4,500 capacity arena we would have sold out a grand total of exactly two games. A couple sellouts a year aren't a bad thing and would be a great problem to have. Additionally given the footprint of the building, if the seating capacity were 4,500 at the outset it would be pretty doable to expand that in the future if the fan base warrants (a pretty big and unlikely if no matter how well we do - Williamsburg just isn't a large market).

(02-04-2020 11:32 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  Additionally given the footprint of the building, if the seating capacity were 4,500 at the outset it would be pretty doable to expand that in the future if the fan base warrants (a pretty big and unlikely if no matter how well we do - Williamsburg just isn't a large market).

If it's expandable then I have no issue. I just think that we're actually putting resources towards the program (which we obviously are here) then you have to account for some potential growth in crowd size.

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(02-04-2020 06:11 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 10:43 PM)Zorch Wrote:  Another point not mentioned is graduation. I attended graduations in '14 and '16 and the Hall was basically full. Definitely more full than 4500. So now parents and families will be even more limited in their attempts to get seating? Or is the plan to hold all future graduations at Zable? Here's news: sometimes it can get hot and muggy in Williamsburg. Other times it rains!

William and Mary is still an educational institution first (I think). Its graduation venue should be big enough to fit ALL of the people interested enough to attend.

They will just have two graduation sessions or even three to accommodate everyone. That's how it's done at larger schools, generally done by school (business, etc.)

Actually, W&M has had separate ceremonies, by school, for years. That is where the student picks up their actual diploma. However, before those ceremonies, there has always been a main commencement where the commencement speech is given by some famous honcho (who you know is not going to give his speech twice), the President says a few words (hopefully only a few), and prestigious academic awards are given to noteworthy students and maybe a few professors. Lately, it culminates in a big beach ball toss. This is the ceremony held at the Hall and which it is very hard to get good seats for. 4200 seats would not be enough to handle the demand.

(02-04-2020 12:15 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 06:11 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 10:43 PM)Zorch Wrote:  Another point not mentioned is graduation. I attended graduations in '14 and '16 and the Hall was basically full. Definitely more full than 4500. So now parents and families will be even more limited in their attempts to get seating? Or is the plan to hold all future graduations at Zable? Here's news: sometimes it can get hot and muggy in Williamsburg. Other times it rains!

William and Mary is still an educational institution first (I think). Its graduation venue should be big enough to fit ALL of the people interested enough to attend.

They will just have two graduation sessions or even three to accommodate everyone. That's how it's done at larger schools, generally done by school (business, etc.)

Actually, W&M has had separate ceremonies, by school, for years. That is where the student picks up their actual diploma. However, before those ceremonies, there has always been a main commencement where the commencement speech is given by some famous honcho (who you know is not going to give his speech twice), the President says a few words (hopefully only a few), and prestigious academic awards are given to noteworthy students and maybe a few professors. Lately, it culminates in a big beach ball toss. This is the ceremony held at the Hall and which it is very hard to get good seats for. 4200 seats would not be enough to handle the demand.

Generally when they do hall events like that, the floor is lined with chairs as well. Probably ups the capacity by a couple hundred.

(02-04-2020 12:26 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 12:15 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 06:11 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 10:43 PM)Zorch Wrote:  Another point not mentioned is graduation. I attended graduations in '14 and '16 and the Hall was basically full. Definitely more full than 4500. So now parents and families will be even more limited in their attempts to get seating? Or is the plan to hold all future graduations at Zable? Here's news: sometimes it can get hot and muggy in Williamsburg. Other times it rains!

William and Mary is still an educational institution first (I think). Its graduation venue should be big enough to fit ALL of the people interested enough to attend.

They will just have two graduation sessions or even three to accommodate everyone. That's how it's done at larger schools, generally done by school (business, etc.)

Actually, W&M has had separate ceremonies, by school, for years. That is where the student picks up their actual diploma. However, before those ceremonies, there has always been a main commencement where the commencement speech is given by some famous honcho (who you know is not going to give his speech twice), the President says a few words (hopefully only a few), and prestigious academic awards are given to noteworthy students and maybe a few professors. Lately, it culminates in a big beach ball toss. This is the ceremony held at the Hall and which it is very hard to get good seats for. 4200 seats would not be enough to handle the demand.

Generally when they do hall events like that, the floor is lined with chairs as well. Probably ups the capacity by a couple hundred.

It must have been a while since you have been to a graduation, MrJ! Those chairs on the floor are where the graduates sit.

(02-04-2020 12:34 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 12:26 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 12:15 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(02-04-2020 06:11 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 10:43 PM)Zorch Wrote:  Another point not mentioned is graduation. I attended graduations in '14 and '16 and the Hall was basically full. Definitely more full than 4500. So now parents and families will be even more limited in their attempts to get seating? Or is the plan to hold all future graduations at Zable? Here's news: sometimes it can get hot and muggy in Williamsburg. Other times it rains!

William and Mary is still an educational institution first (I think). Its graduation venue should be big enough to fit ALL of the people interested enough to attend.

They will just have two graduation sessions or even three to accommodate everyone. That's how it's done at larger schools, generally done by school (business, etc.)

Actually, W&M has had separate ceremonies, by school, for years. That is where the student picks up their actual diploma. However, before those ceremonies, there has always been a main commencement where the commencement speech is given by some famous honcho (who you know is not going to give his speech twice), the President says a few words (hopefully only a few), and prestigious academic awards are given to noteworthy students and maybe a few professors. Lately, it culminates in a big beach ball toss. This is the ceremony held at the Hall and which it is very hard to get good seats for. 4200 seats would not be enough to handle the demand.

Generally when they do hall events like that, the floor is lined with chairs as well. Probably ups the capacity by a couple hundred.

It must have been a while since you have been to a graduation, MrJ! Those chairs on the floor are where the graduates sit.

I know that. Grads need to sit too. I was just including them as part of the overall seating capacity.

(02-04-2020 09:22 AM)nj alum Wrote:  I would like to raise several points re: capacity.

Where will the students sit? How much seating for students? How much seating for the buying public?

What happens when a student can’t get into a game due to limited capacity? Does that student get a refund on a portion of that student’s athletic fees?

The Hall has always had a capacity larger than the size of the undergraduate student body. It seems to me that a 4,500 capacity, split between students and the buying public, creates some issues.

I will close with this stink grenade. Are the students being moved to behind the basket? Is the student lounge a shiny object to distract students from the fact that their seat allotment is being slashed drastically, and that their sideline seating will disappear?

And if the student seating is not being affected, well, that doesn’t leave many seats for the buying public, if capacity is to be 4,500.

It is an absolute shame that this project, so sorely needed, has a “capacity” issue, perceived by long-time stakeholders and alumni, and perhaps not realized by those “newbies”, consultants or otherwise, who may fail to think this through.

Why is it that those who want to go to the Dance also have no problem with shrinkage of the Hall? When the Dance is made, Nirvana will be achieved (tic), and a 4,500 building will not cut it.

Never lose sight of the fact that the ability of William and Mary to fit its entire student body in the Hall is a feature that many schools do not have, and would love to have. Throwing that away “to create demand” for men’s basketball tickets, in my view, goes against the core mission of the College.

I believe 4500 would be too small as well. I doubt that’s the end result. But why would the target number be so every student could fit? Duke can’t fill their full allotment of student seating for most games now that Zion is gone. What makes anyone think we will run out of student space in Kaplan? How many students come to gold rush? I would assume that’s the highest number every year.

We've had 2 games this yr over 4500. GR will be another one. Had our team not laid an egg 2 of the past 3 games, I think we'd have eclipsed 4500 for Sat games the remainder of the season. 4 or 5 games where people are turned away would be a travesty.

This is all just us talking. 100% chance we'll have an arena of at least 5500 when all is said and done. The cryptic print is merely a way to build interest, put die-hards in a frenzy, and it gives the AD an angle to get donors to donate more.

"Mr J, we need $1000 from you to make it 4500. But, if you'll pony up $2500, we can increase seating to 5500."

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My comment about fitting the entire student body in the Hall was meant to apply to non-basketball events; I don’t think the current seating arrangement would allow all students to attend a hoops game.

Reducing capacity for hoops games that results in the facility not being able to fit all students for a non-hoops game is not cool, IMO.

Case in point. The 1976 Presidential debate at W&M. If capacity is reduced to 4500, what happened in 1976 would not be able to be repeated. Flexibility to handle big crowds for certain events has to be incorporated into the plan.

On another note, I’m visually comparing the current student seating chart at the Kap with the new planned seating behind the west basket, and visually, the two do not appear comparable. It’s a significant student seating reduction, if that is the plan. Maybe the capacity reduction is coming out of the student’s hides, and not the general public’s.

Exceeding the seating capacity for only gold rush would be one thing. The problem is, in a successful season, we are currently drawing well over the 4,500 for Saturday matchups. Put those same games in a fan friendly new arena and the attendance certainly isn't going down.
Not that I'm comparing what we have to VCU, but they are averaging a sell out of their 7k arena. For S's & giggles, I looked up VCUs attendance numbers from 1998 - the year before the Segal Centre opened up. I then compared it to W&M. Sure, a miracle final four run does a lot for a program, but the numbers are interesting.
1998
VCU @ Richmond Coliseum - 4,002 (11,992 capacity)
W&M @ the Hall - 3,265 (10,000 capacity)
2020
VCU @ Segal Centre - 7,637 (7,617 capacity)
W&M @ Kaplan Arena - 3,470 (8,400)

Learn from history and VCU. If they could do it again, guarenteed they would have gone bigger. I'm sure the VCU AD in the late 90's thought having a 7,600 seat arena when they were drawing 4,000 offered plenty of room for growth. Good basketball and great game day experience blew up their attendance. Isn't that the stated goal of this athletic department? IMO, If this program is consistently good and the game day experience is a blast, a decade from now we will be kicking ourselves- even if the capacity is at 6k.

(02-04-2020 01:50 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Exceeding the seating capacity for only gold rush would be one thing. The problem is, in a successful season, we are currently drawing well over the 4,500 for Saturday matchups. Put those same games in a fan friendly new arena and the attendance certainly isn't going down.
Not that I'm comparing what we have to VCU, but they are averaging a sell out of their 7k arena. For S's & giggles, I looked up VCUs attendance numbers from 1998 - the year before the Segal Centre opened up. I then compared it to W&M. Sure, a miracle final four run does a lot for a program, but the numbers are interesting.
1998
VCU @ Richmond Coliseum - 4,002 (11,992 capacity)
W&M @ the Hall - 3,265 (10,000 capacity)
2020
VCU @ Segal Centre - 7,637 (7,617 capacity)
W&M @ Kaplan Arena - 3,470 (8,400)

Learn from history and VCU. If they could do it again, guarenteed they would have gone bigger. Good basketball and great game day experience blew up their attendance. Isn't that the stated goal of this athletic department? IMO, If this program is consistently good and the game day experience is a blast, a decade from now we will be kicking ourselves- even if the capacity is at 6k.

I’m with you on this.

Well, this has been a fun discussion, but isn't the whole point of using fabric to mask the upper reaches to limit the apparent capacity for game days without blowing out the upper reaches? Does the design make the current top rows permanently inaccessible? I was under the impression that major events like graduation could still be held using areas beyond the masking. Or not?

(02-04-2020 01:31 PM)nj alum Wrote:  My comment about fitting the entire student body in the Hall was meant to apply to non-basketball events; I don’t think the current seating arrangement would allow all students to attend a hoops game.

Reducing capacity for hoops games that results in the facility not being able to fit all students for a non-hoops game is not cool, IMO.

Case in point. The 1976 Presidential debate at W&M. If capacity is reduced to 4500, what happened in 1976 would not be able to be repeated. Flexibility to handle big crowds for certain events has to be incorporated into the plan.

Agree with Tribal that this is all moot and it will be at least 5K-5,500 - but to my knowledge aside from graduation, there aren't any events being held in the hall that draw larger crowds than basketball games. Even major concerts or Charter Day they are setting the stage up in the middle of the floor and only using half the arena. And presidential debates are routinely held in auditoriums or small arenas with capacities of 2K or fewer. So the rain location of graduation aside, this is purely a question of basketball crowds, nothing else is going to be affected by a smaller capacity.

You don’t know what happened at the 1976 Presidential debate at W&M.

The actual debate was at PBK.

Carter and Ford went to the Hall after the debate to speak to the student body which had watched the debate on a large screen at the Hall.

It’s all about flexibility and options, such as when the school decides to increase the undergraduate student body to 10,000, only to be stuck with a 4,500 Hall.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if WM ever hosts a presidential debate again (which last happened almost 50 years ago), we can figure something out if only 2/3 of our student body can fit into an auxiliary location...

There’s nothing to figure out if we don’t emasculate the Hall’s seating capacity.

A permanent 4,500 seating capacity is too small and indefensible.