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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-23-2015 11:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  We've had this debate before, and I think we have to agree to disagree that they are massively different policies.

But even if I were to concede that you are correct on the substance, "Yes it sounds exactly like Obamacare, but really, it's totally different!" is still not the argument a candidate wants to be making in the GOP primary.

But that's precisely the problem they're having, JAAO. And just because it is hard, doesn't mean it isn't right. I mean, here you are, an educated person and you don't see much of a difference between exchange policies and national pools.

Similarly, expanding medicare would have accomplished the goal of expanding medicaid, but similarly created a national standard as opposed to 50 competing state standards that must all be 'normalized' anytime anyone crosses state lines. I mean, the feds are claiming they're picking up 'all' of the costs anyway, so why didn't they just do that?

and let's be honest.... most people don't understand the ACA. (We had to pass it to see what was in it) but it SOUNDED to lots of people like 'free healthcare for everyone'... even though the reality is quite different. The truth for something as nuanced as healthcare in a country already with a PCP shortage is not as easy a sell as something that sounds like 'free healthcare' and 'everyone saves money'.

I'd also mention that the individual mandate already existed. It's called FICA.
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2015 11:45 AM by Hambone10.)
09-23-2015 11:43 AM
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CrabCake Away
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Post: #22
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
What surprises me is the "staying power" Trump continues to amass at this stage in the game. He announced his candidacy more than three months ago and his popularity continues to climb, despite several missteps. I would have thought he would have been out by this point, so it's hard to tell what will happen months from now.

Just based on what we have seen over the summer, it does appear that the American people are at least intrigued by the thought of an outsider leading the country. If I recall correctly (history was not one of my stronger subjects in school), Eisenhower was the last President to win the election having never held political office previously. Of course, his popularity was easily understandable at the time. I'm not sure if there is one analogous event that explains the Trump/Carson/Fiorina draw in the present time.

I'm still reserving my predictions for the Republican ticket at this time - I would like to see another round of debates.

As far as the Democratic ticket, I think Biden can top Clinton and Sanders should he enter the race. The other contenders do not have a chance at the nomination.
09-23-2015 06:50 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
i like Kasich. If he is the nominee I am OK with that.

i respect Sanders' integrity, but don't like his policies. owever, should he be the camdidate, and is elected, I don't think he can get his proposals thru comgress.

IIRC, parts of Obama care were postponed until 2017, and so not only do few umderstamd it, we have yet to truly experience it.
09-23-2015 07:57 PM
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JOwl Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-23-2015 10:43 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-23-2015 10:25 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  While I think it would make a lot of sense for the GOP to nominate Kasich, one thing that will happen if he starts getting traction in the polls is the other candidates will start attacking his Hillarycare alternative from the 90s. It included such things as an individual mandate requiring individuals to purchase coverage and "purchasing pools" to help them do so. Sound familiar?

IIRC correctly, Kasich's approach was basically the Heritage proposal, which was an adaptation of the German Bismarck approach. I would actually prefer the French Bismarck approach, as it is slightly more free market oriented, but I would prefer either to Obamacare. I really don't understand why republicans did not pass something along those lines when they took over congress in 1994. That would have been a far better use of their time than Monicagate.

But I digress. My major point is that the Kasich/Heritage/Bismarck mandate is nothing like the Obamacare mandate and the Kasich/Heritage/Bismarck "purchasing pools" work nothing like the Obamacare exchanges. In fact, Obamacare specifically denies the primary purpose of the Kasich/Heritage/Bismarck "purchasing pools"--interstate purchase of health insurance.

I would hope that Kasich could do a better job of explaining the massive substantive differences between his mandates and purchasing pools and the things that sound similar about Obamacare than Romney could do with Romneycare. As I've said before, democrats borrowed republican WORDS for Obamacare, but they lacked the integrity to include the ideas that went with those words. And republicans seem unwilling to call them out on it.

This is all news to me, because I didn't follow politics until the late 90's, but I tried to look some of it up.

------------------

On the mandate, the one article I could find said that
Quote:Kasich’s plan would provide universal coverage by requiring individuals to enroll in insurance plans through employers. The federal government would pay the entire premium cost for those within 100 percent of poverty, and the partial cost for those between 100 and 200 percent of poverty. But for people exceeding 200 percent of poverty, little would change from the current healthcare system, meaning they could be saddled with the entire premium cost. Employers, however, could make voluntary contributions as they do today.

That doesn't sound much different from the current mandate, where the lowest earners get a tax credit that phases out as income increases.

[Unfortunately, I can't find any primary sources to verify that quote or to give it context. It came from a 2013 Time article, which is quoting a paper put together by a pro-Hilary SuperPAC, which is quoting CongressDaily from 1994. So that's a lot of sources to pass through, at least one of which is clearly partisan.]

------------------

On the exchanges, I couldn't find anything supporting the idea that interstate purchase of health insurance was a key aspect of the Heritage purchasing pools. What I did find is a 2010 Heritage article that said "their version of the exchange ... would be open to all state residents and -- very importantly -- be free of federal regulation". A fuller quote as follows:

Quote:First, Heritage did not originate the concept of the health insurance exchange. Furthermore, the version of the exchange we did develop couldn't be more different than that embodied in this law.

For us, the health insurance exchange is to be designed by the states. It is conceived as a market mechanism that allows individuals and families to choose among a wide range of health plans and benefit options for those best suited to their personal needs and circumstances. People would have a property right in their health policy, just like auto or homeowners' policies, and be able to take it with them from job to job.

Under the Heritage design, individuals could choose the health plan they want without losing the tax benefits of employer-sponsored coverage. The exchange we propose would be open to all state residents and -- very importantly -- be free of federal regulation.

Under the president's law, however, the congressionally designed exchanges are a tool imposed on the states enabling the federal government to standardize and micromanage health insurance coverage, while administering a vast and unaffordable new entitlement program. This is a vehicle for federal control of state markets, a usurpation of state authority and the suppression of meaningful patient choice. Heritage finds this crushing of state innovation and experimentation repugnant.

This law constitutes a massive alteration of the constitutional balance of power between the federal government and the states, and strikes at the heart of American federalism. This is probably not something President Obama gives a whit about, but we at Heritage do.

Interestingly, that Heritage article also goes on to address the mandate issue. It doesn't make any effort to distinguish Obama's mandate as different from Heritage's, but rather explains why they changed their mind: "Yes, in the early 1990s, we, along with other prominent conservative economists, supported the idea of such a mandate.... Our research in the ensuing two decades has led us to realize our initial idea was operationally ineffective and legally defective. Well before Obama was elected, we dropped it."
09-23-2015 08:04 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-23-2015 10:25 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  I think the email scandal and the Clinton foundation stuff is much ado about very little.


Guess we'll find out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articl...ton-server
09-23-2015 10:27 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
Except that Medicaid has always done all of that. This is merely an 'expansion' of medicaid versus an expansion of medicare.

medicare and medicaid already exist as mandates, with coverage for 'most' people up to 100% of the poverty line or more, depending on the state and age. The only people generally not covered (though many states DO cover them either through medicaid or through other 'assistance' including 'free' clinics.... are non working adults who aren't pregnant and aren't otherwise getting assistance from the government.

Kasich's plan, at least the way you've described it (I'm no expert on his policies) with the feds covering 100% of the cost of the poor is entirely different from the ACA where Medicaid, meaning the states cover 100% of the cost of many of the poor. That is a HUGE difference. The medicad expansion only covers '90%' of the cost of the coverage for those who weren't previously covered by the state. An entirely different subset. 100% of the cost of the poor vs 90% of the 20% or so not already covered by the states.

Please understand, I'm not saying that these policies are as different as I've portrayed them, I'm merely saying that you don't see much difference between those cohorts because of the wording, but if you understand the system, the differences are actually huge. Not one state would turn down the system you've described for kasich. It frees up tons of resources with no obligation.... as opposed to the ACA which gives 'most' of the resources for the required services, but not all... and it comes with a much greater possibility that the fed simply require more in the future, with or without additional resources.

and JAAO, I have to admit that when I first read this thread, I didn't really notice this... and now that I have, I can't stop laughing at it.

'An early dark-horse favorite' is a complete contradiction in multiple terms. First, 'an' means one of a number... so there were multiple... and the terms dark-horse and favorite are essentially antonyms.... especially 'early'.

What the term really seems to imply to me is someone who nobody really seriously expects to win, but is one of a number of candidates who, given an extremely odd and unlikely set of events, is fun to speculate about.

Like if Bernie gave up his socialist stance and changed parties, he'd be an early dark-horse favorite for the republican nomination.

I know that isn't how you meant it... but that's how it reads to me (now)
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2015 10:51 PM by Hambone10.)
09-23-2015 10:48 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-23-2015 08:04 PM)JOwl Wrote:  This is all news to me, because I didn't follow politics until the late 90's, but I tried to look some of it up.

Two points are relevant:

1) There have been a number of Heritage proposals over time, they have evolved over time, and they have been made by different people at Heritage. "Heritage proposals" made by different people at different times can vary significantly.
2) The Heritage proposal made in response to Hillarycare was in the 1993 time frame, and not everything got to the Internet in those days. All the references I have are hard copy, and they're probably in some box in my garage somewhere.

Bottom line, you're going to have a hard time finding much on the web about this.

The 1993 Heritage proposal was based loosely on German Bismarck health care. I prefer the actual Bismarck to the Heritage adaptation, and I prefer French Bismarck to German. So, let me describe Bismarck. The fundamental concept is that you have two parallel health care systems--one public and one private. An analogy might be education in the US where we have public schools and private schools, although that analogy is imperfect at best.

The difference between France and Germany is that in Germany they are mutually exclusive, you are in one or the other, whereas in France they are complementary, and most people are in both. In Germany roughly 87% are in the public system and 13% are in the private system, whereas in France 99+% are covered in the public system, and 90% supplement with private insurance. The French public plans are pretty bare-bones and cheap, like maybe a bad HMO here, while Germany has about 130 different public plans that run the gamut. The German plans are offered by the 16 Lander, or states, through "non-profit" state agencies, plus 2 or 3 labor unions also offer public insurance plans. With 19 providers and 130 plans, obviously the providers offer multiple plans. Now, here is where the exchanges come in. Any resident of any state can buy any policy from any other state. The exchanges are created by the states to provide a mechanism for residents of one state to buy insurance out of state. If I live in Bavaria and want a policy from Schleswig-Holstein, I go to the Schleswig-Holstein exchange to buy that policy. Actually, the exchange is probably where I went to find out about that policy in the first place. In the pre-Internet days, I would have to interact with the exchange in some way other than online, but now it's obviously all on the web. With everybody having a website, the exchanges are probably redundant at this point, except perhaps as a way to provide some structure. Each state runs its own exchange and obviously promotes its insurance products on its exchange. Note that I put "non-profit" is in quotes above, because these agencies operate like profit-seeking entities, they just bonus out all their profits to employees and executives to zero out the bottom line at the end of the year. Top executives of the Lander agencies make hundreds of thousands in bonuses under this system, so the competition between them is extremely intense. It was from Germany that Heritage got the idea for exchanges as a way to facilitate interstate competition among insurance companies. The goal was to foster the same kind of competition among insurers as among the Lander as the best way to drive down costs, the standard--and repeatedly successful--free market approach. The Heritage IDEA was interstate competition among insurance companies, a key element of most republican approaches today, and the exchanges were the mechanism adopted to facilitate that, because exchanges were already functioning effectively for that purpose in Germany. So the Bismarck and Heritage exchanges exist to facilitate interstate competition in health insurance, which doesn't exist in Obamacare, whereas the Obamacare exchanges exist to administer subsidies, which Bismarck and Heritage handle separately.

In the German system, employees and employers pay for public plans, with the government paying for unemployed people through social security. In France premiums for the basic plans are paid by the government out of social security and consumption taxes. Supplemental plans are on your own, and employers can subsidize them (which is a large reason why 90% of people have them).

The German mandate means that everybody has to have coverage. If you don't select one, your Land selects one for you. In France basic care is not really a mandate because the premium is paid by government. Like Germany, if you don't select a basic plan, your province selects one for you. As I understand it, the basic plans in France are provided by non-profit affiliates of for-profit insurance companies. They don't make money and bonus it out like the German Lander, but they are still very competitive because that's where the insurance companies get their mailing lists to market supplemental plans. If I get my basic coverage from Aetna, I'm probably going to buy my supplemental from Aetna. Heritage kind of combined the two. You were mandated to buy health insurance, but you got a tax credit to defray the cost. IIRC in the 1993 version everybody got a tax credit for insurance, it wasn't means-tested like Obamacare or the Kasich proposal you quoted. That made it more like France than Germany.

One big difference between German or French Bismarck and Obamacare is that there are zero uninsureds in either form of Bismarck. Wasn't that what Obamacare was supposed to be about?

If it were up to me, I would
1) Implement French Bismarck health care. This would cost about $900 billion a year, assuming admin costs could be controlled. This would make Medicaid redundant, saving about $400 billion at the federal level (plus a significant incremental amount at the state level), and would convert Medicare to a supplemental insurance program, saving about $100 billion there. Note that the French government spends less per capita on health care than the US federal and state governments do combined, so these numbers should be doable. Repeat, the government portion of French health care spending is less per capita to provide universal care than the government portion of US health care spending is to provide not universal care. That's how grossly inefficient our government health care programs are.
2) I would replace our current hodgepodge of focused and means-tested welfare programs with a single federal program, based on either Milton Friedman's negative income tax (NIT) or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, which is basically the NIT in a consumption tax setting. I would transfer the current programs to the states, who could pick them up or not, or change them, as they saw fit. Since I took away their Medicaid costs in step 1, they should easily be able to absorb the cost, particularly since the NIT/prebate/prefund will give millions of current recipients sufficient income to disqualify them from these programs. The NIT/prebate/prefund cost about $800 billion a year, less savings of about $300 billion on programs transferred to the states, for a net cost of $500 billion.
3) From 1 and 2 together, we would be looking at a net increase of $800 billion. I would fund it all by adding a consumption tax and converting income taxes to a flat rate and eliminating loopholes. A 15% consumption tax and a 15% flat tax on business and investment income, plus making the total social security tax 15% and eliminating the cap on wages, would provide sufficient tax revenues--eliminating the individual income tax altogether--to balance the budget and fund the remaining health care cost and the cost of the NIT/prebate/prefund. With that we would be taxing all forms of income--wages (through the payroll tax), business profits, and investment income--at a single rate. Going forward, I would provide that all three must move together as needed to keep the budget in balance.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015 10:51 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-24-2015 07:31 AM
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JSA Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
OT

John Boehner Resigns From Congress, Will Leave Office at End of October

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2...tober.html

There were rumors he was considering not standing for re-election for Speaker, but I didn't expect a complete resignation or one before his term was up.
09-25-2015 09:58 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 09:58 AM)JSA Wrote:  OT

John Boehner Resigns From Congress, Will Leave Office at End of October

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2...tober.html

There were rumors he was considering not standing for re-election for Speaker, but I didn't expect a complete resignation or one before his term was up.

"This is a victory for the Crazies." -Peter King (R-NY)

https://twitter.com/BresPolitico/status/...0220141568
09-25-2015 10:53 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-23-2015 10:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  and JAAO, I have to admit that when I first read this thread, I didn't really notice this... and now that I have, I can't stop laughing at it.

'An early dark-horse favorite' is a complete contradiction in multiple terms.

Well, he was a favorite pick of pundits making early "dark horse" predictions. So I stand by my formulation, regardless of whether it makes any logical sense. 03-lmfao
09-25-2015 10:57 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 09:58 AM)JSA Wrote:  OT
John Boehner Resigns From Congress, Will Leave Office at End of October
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2...tober.html
There were rumors he was considering not standing for re-election for Speaker, but I didn't expect a complete resignation or one before his term was up.

I don't think he ever really grasped what the job was about. He just always looked lost. He never provided anything resembling leadership, and never appeared to have any discernible objective in mind.

I still say that on day 1 back in 2011 the republicans should have passed Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of the two, along with French Bismarck health care to replace Obamacare, and dumped both of them in Harry Reid's and Obama's laps to deal with. That would have put democrats on the back foot and given republicans a chance to take the high ground in both the budget and health care debates. From there he could actually gotten something done.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015 11:03 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-25-2015 11:03 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-25-2015 09:58 AM)JSA Wrote:  OT
John Boehner Resigns From Congress, Will Leave Office at End of October
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2...tober.html
There were rumors he was considering not standing for re-election for Speaker, but I didn't expect a complete resignation or one before his term was up.

I don't think he ever really grasped what the job was about. He just always looked lost. He never provided anything resembling leadership, and never appeared to have any discernible objective in mind.

I still say that on day 1 back in 2011 the republicans should have passed Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of the two, along with French Bismarck health care to replace Obamacare, and dumped both of them in Harry Reid's and Obama's laps to deal with. That would have put democrats on the back foot and given republicans a chance to take the high ground in both the budget and health care debates. From there he could actually gotten something done.

I don't know how anyone can lead the House Republicans in their current state. You have too large a block that believes compromise of any sort on anything is unacceptable, despite not having the votes to pass anything otherwise. (Or they believe they have to act like that's what they think in order to not be primaried.) They'd rather shutdown the government over [insert issue] than govern.

This is the assessment I've heard from frustrated GOPers, btw, not my own, though I agree with them.
09-25-2015 11:15 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 11:15 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  I don't know how anyone can lead the House Republicans in their current state. You have too large a block that believes compromise of any sort on anything is unacceptable, despite not having the votes to pass anything otherwise. (Or they believe they have to act like that's what they think in order to not be primaried.) They'd rather shutdown the government over [insert issue] than govern.
This is the assessment I've heard from frustrated GOPers, btw, not my own, though I agree with them.

How you lead them is very simple. You have objectives and you have a plan to get you there. You sell the objectives and you sell the plan. Then people follow.

Boehner's idea of leadership is, "Follow me, I don't know where I'm going." That's how you turn a congressional majority into a herd of cats.
09-25-2015 11:27 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
As for rejecting compromise of any sort, that is certainly not limited to republicans. Reid, Pelosi, and Obama have been at least as unwilling to make genuine compromise with republicans as republicans have with them.

IMO that is a good thing. Right now, both parties' ideas are so bad that I don't want anybody compromising with either one to get anything done. Total gridlock is superior to any idea that has come out of either party since Clinton and Newt compromised on welfare reform and sorta balancing the budget.
09-25-2015 11:31 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 11:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As for rejecting compromise of any sort, that is certainly not limited to republicans. Reid, Pelosi, and Obama have been at least as unwilling to make genuine compromise with republicans as republicans have with them.

Sorry, but I think that's fundamentally not true. Not saying their first objective is to compromise, but having lots of friends still in the poli sci field who analyze survey data and voting patterns, what is going on in the Republican party recently (last 10-20 years) is fairly new and different. One telling chart showed 'likely' voters and their attitudes toward compromise. Fairly high in the middle as you might expect. Dropped off a cliff as you moved right. Moving left was statistically not much different than the middle, perhaps a little higher. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit: I realize your example was congressional leaders and mine was voter attitudes. But this gets back to my point about compromise - especially in the House, a lot or Rs are scared of being primaried if Rush Limbaugh or someone declares them a traitor to the cause for not taking a hardline. Simply not anywhere near as prominent in the Democratic party right now. IMHO, and the opinion of many political scientists, and GOP staffers.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015 11:50 AM by JustAnotherAustinOwl.)
09-25-2015 11:40 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 10:57 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(09-23-2015 10:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  and JAAO, I have to admit that when I first read this thread, I didn't really notice this... and now that I have, I can't stop laughing at it.

'An early dark-horse favorite' is a complete contradiction in multiple terms.

Well, he was a favorite pick of pundits making early "dark horse" predictions. So I stand by my formulation, regardless of whether it makes any logical sense. 03-lmfao

The sad thing is, I knew exactly what you meant!!
09-25-2015 12:14 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 11:40 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Edit: I realize your example was congressional leaders and mine was voter attitudes.

But that's my whole point.

As you note, the republican rank and file consist of a large number of the religious right, who are unwilling to compromise on anything. There's a Barry Goldwater quote warning of this. Their leaders tend to be people who have spent some time in business and have learned that you have to compromise to get deals done, so they are more willing. But I agree and have posted many times that the "my way or the highway" attitude of the religious right is a major problem.

On the other hand, I know a number of people who tend strongly if not exclusively to vote for democrats who are IMO genuinely motivated by doing the right thing. I think most (but not all) of them would be open to reasonable compromise. Their party leaders are not. Obama has never done a significant business deal, and Biden, Pelosi, and Reid are all essentially career politicians. Nothing in any of their backgrounds suggest compromising to get a deal done.

I think we have a situation where democrat voters may be more willing to compromise than republicans, but republican leaders are more inclined to compromise that democrats.

I realize that politics at one time was the art of compromise to get a deal done, but it hasn't been in quite a while, and that's unfortunate. I wonder if we weren't better off when the party bosses picked the candidates, instead of the primaries.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015 01:08 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-25-2015 12:22 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think he ever really grasped what the job was about. He just always looked lost. He never provided anything resembling leadership, and never appeared to have any discernible objective in mind.

I still say that on day 1 back in 2011 the republicans should have passed Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of the two, along with French Bismarck health care to replace Obamacare, and dumped both of them in Harry Reid's and Obama's laps to deal with. That would have put democrats on the back foot and given republicans a chance to take the high ground in both the budget and health care debates. From there he could actually gotten something done.

Bowles-Simpson and French Bismarck? I don't think those could have passed these recent Houses even if Jesus was Speaker and Ronald Reagan was Majority Whip.
09-25-2015 12:24 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 12:24 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(09-25-2015 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think he ever really grasped what the job was about. He just always looked lost. He never provided anything resembling leadership, and never appeared to have any discernible objective in mind.
I still say that on day 1 back in 2011 the republicans should have passed Bowles-Simpson or Domenici-Rivlin or some combination of the best of the two, along with French Bismarck health care to replace Obamacare, and dumped both of them in Harry Reid's and Obama's laps to deal with. That would have put democrats on the back foot and given republicans a chance to take the high ground in both the budget and health care debates. From there he could actually gotten something done.
Bowles-Simpson and French Bismarck? I don't think those could have passed these recent Houses even if Jesus was Speaker and Ronald Reagan was Majority Whip.

Sure they could have, with some leadership. French Bismarck is basically free market health care. That's what republicans are supposed to be FOR. Bowles-Simpson is lowering tax rates and balancing the budget. That's what republicans are supposed to be FOR.

Present them as the way to put democrats on the defensive, and I think you'd have a deal. I am pretty sure that Reid and Obama would not have liked to see them coming their way, and that should have been enough to motivate republicans to go along.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015 01:06 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-25-2015 12:26 PM
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Gravy Owl Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Presidential Horse Race Thread
(09-25-2015 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Sure they could have, with some leadership. French Bismarck is basically free market health care. That's what republicans are supposed to be FOR. Bowles-Simpson is lowering tax rates and balancing the budget. That's what republicans are supposed to be FOR.

Present them as the way to put democrats on the defensive, and I think you'd have a deal. I am pretty sure that Reid and Obama would not have liked to see them coming their way, and that should have been enough to motivate republicans to go along.

Well, they took Bowles-Simpson, pushed it to the right in the form of Cooper-LaTourette, and it still failed miserably, with Rs even more opposed than Ds and Heritage Action gleefully taking credit for its defeat.

AFAIK no Congressman (on either side of the aisle) has even proposed any Bismarck-style system. Your proposal above strikes me as a pretty good start, probably a bit optimistic in some of the numbers barring some other reforms, but would just never fly among the R caucus since it combines a tax increase with a spending increase.
09-25-2015 03:07 PM
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