How many times can you go see guys drive in a circle for 3 hours at a price tag of $75+?

(04-20-2016 08:14 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Richmond's track has removed about half of it's stands. Now down to 60000.

Wow, I had no idea (when Sadler dropped to Nationwide I sort of lost interest). I remember when they added that upper deck at RIR I think capacity was up to ~112,000. And I noticed they didn't even have a full field at Bristol, only 40 cars entered. NASCAR should be on their knees begging Junior to drive until he's 60, 'cause those are probably the only fans left...

(04-20-2016 04:38 PM)s2dsayer Wrote:  Watching on tv I was really shocked at how empty the stands were...and this was at arguably the best attended track on the whole schedule. Wasn't there a wait list to get Bristol tickets a handful of years ago? What has happened to the popularity of this sport?

The Sat night race last Aug (I was there- looked close to full most of race) I read was sold out at (laidbackracing.com says there capacity is 153k, down from 160k). The night race in 14' (was there) was easily 3/4 full. Tis was my 1st Spring race and I was shocked at the low attenndance. I read on laid ackracing 90k ticekts sold but it was obviously no where near that many butts in seats at any one time. The Spring race doesn't have near the atmosphere the Aug night race does..

(04-20-2016 09:47 PM)Dutch Duke Wrote:  How many times can you go see guys drive in a circle for 3 hours at a price tag of $75+?

How many times can you watch a guy/gal with a stick/club try to hit a little white ball in a little hole in the ground, or hit a little green ball back and forth over a net, or try to throw an orange ball in a basket 10 feet off the ground, etc, etc.

(04-20-2016 10:32 PM)s2dsayer Wrote:  

(04-20-2016 08:14 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Richmond's track has removed about half of it's stands. Now down to 60000.

Wow, I had no idea (when Sadler dropped to Nationwide I sort of lost interest). I remember when they added that upper deck at RIR I think capacity was up to ~112,000. And I noticed they didn't even have a full field at Bristol, only 40 cars entered. NASCAR should be on their knees begging Junior to drive until he's 60, 'cause those are probably the only fans left...

40 cars is a full field with the new Charter system.
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/na...ess-020916

Bleeding could expound on this more than I could. I've heard a slew of reasons for the attendance slide over the last decade or so:
-NASCAR getting away from its Southern roots.
-Between 95'-01' 7 new tracks built, with most outside the south and 6 being 1.5 mile cookie cutter with more boring racing. Places like Atlanta and Darlington lost 2nd race dates, and popular short tracks like North Wilkesboro and Rockingham were completely eliminated. With short track (1/2-3/4 mile) racing its easy to see the whole track from most seats, and there is more beating/banging/rubbing/wrecking, and that is what fans want to see. Just like they want to see great hits in football and fighting in hockey. Only 6 of 36 races now are short track.
-Going to the old Chase format in 04'.
-The Car of Tomorrow "safer" (more downforce, less passing, less wrecking = more boring) in use from 2007-2012.
-After having great attendance early part of the last decade NASCAR tracks began jacking up their ticket prices.
-Great Recession really hammered NASAR's fanbase.
-$3-$4 gas put a dent in the # of people driving gas guzling RVs long distances to spend 3-4 days or more at the tracks.
-Dale Junior, NASCARs most popular driver, in a slump 2007-2009.
-A lot of fans are, or use to be, gearheads that worked on their own cars. Thats not nearly the case as much anymore with todays' vehicles being heavily computerized.
-Just like virtually all sports, A plurality of fans over the last decade or so getting big screen HD home theater surround sound with DVRs has hurt attendance.
-Like I assume a lot of sports, at a lot of tracks bad cell coverage/no wifi when you pit 50-100k+ people in a small footprint.

With the new Gen 6 car, implemented in 2013 and the new Chase playoff format implemented in 2014, there was somewhat of an attendance and ratings rebound in 14-15'. Also this year they went to a lower downforce package which = more passing and better racing. Jeff Gordon retiring was a hit, and Junior retiring I assume sometime after 2020 will be another hit, but there are a lot of extremely talented young drivers in Cup and Xfinity...

(04-21-2016 04:12 AM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(04-20-2016 10:32 PM)s2dsayer Wrote:  

(04-20-2016 08:14 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Richmond's track has removed about half of it's stands. Now down to 60000.

Wow, I had no idea (when Sadler dropped to Nationwide I sort of lost interest). I remember when they added that upper deck at RIR I think capacity was up to ~112,000. And I noticed they didn't even have a full field at Bristol, only 40 cars entered. NASCAR should be on their knees begging Junior to drive until he's 60, 'cause those are probably the only fans left...

40 cars is a full field with the new Charter system.
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/na...ess-020916

Bleeding could expound on this more than I could. I've heard a slew of reasons for the attendance slide over the last decade or so:
-NASCAR getting away from its Southern roots.
-Between 95'-01' 7 new tracks built, with most outside the south and 6 being 1.5 mile cookie cutter with more boring racing. Places like Atlanta and Darlington lost 2nd race dates, and popular short tracks like North Wilkesboro and Rockingham were completely eliminated. With short track (1/2-3/4 mile) racing its easy to see the whole track from most seats, and there is more beating/banging/rubbing/wrecking, and that is what fans want to see. Just like they want to see great hits in football and fighting in hockey. Only 6 of 36 races now are short track.
-Going to the old Chase format in 04'.
-The Car of Tomorrow "safer" (more downforce, less passing, less wrecking = more boring) in use from 2007-2012.
-After having great attendance early part of the last decade NASCAR tracks began jacking up their ticket prices.
-Great Recession really hammered NASAR's fanbase.
-$3-$4 gas put a dent in the # of people driving gas guzling RVs long distances to spend 3-4 days or more at the tracks.
-Dale Junior, NASCARs most popular driver, in a slump 2007-2009.
-A lot of fans are, or use to be, gearheads that worked on their own cars. Thats not nearly the case as much anymore with todays' vehicles being heavily computerized.
-Just like virtually all sports, A plurality of fans over the last decade or so getting big screen HD home theater surround sound with DVRs has hurt attendance.
-Like I assume a lot of sports, at a lot of tracks bad cell coverage/no wifi when you pit 50-100k+ people in a small footprint.

With the new Gen 6 car, implemented in 2013 and the new Chase playoff format implemented in 2014, there was somewhat of an attendance and ratings rebound in 14-15'. Also this year they went to a lower downforce package which = more passing and better racing. Jeff Gordon retiring was a hit, and Junior retiring I assume sometime after 2020 will be another hit, but there are a lot of extremely talented young drivers in Cup and Xfinity...

You thoughts are spot on. Though, this doesn't have a direct affect on it, but Brian France is not a well respected individual, especially when compared to his father and grandfather. Until I witnessed what happens when you have someone of similar character like the original Charlotte Hornets and their owner George Shinn.

It came out that he had a sexual relationship with a cheerleader and fans of the Hornets dropped the team by the droves even as the Hornets started to play very good basketball and making the playoffs, yet they had little support those final six years in Charlotte before the team left town for New Orleans. This was after breaking all kinds of NBA records for number of games that were sold out and leading the league in attendance the first eight years of the 14 they existed. Then the bottom fell out right when Shinn got caught with one of his cheerleaders. He eventually sold a portion of the team to Ray Wooldridge who turned out to be a bigger sleazebag than Shinn, and the team was doomed.

Much has been the same with Brian France and NASCAR. People don't want to see him end up with their money. He demands that his subordinates "yes" him at every turn. Over the past ten or more years, they have made so many changes to the sport that it's been impossible for people to keep up unless you are a true die-hard fan.

Some of the rule changes would be the equivalent of placing the goal post ten yards behind the endzone, change a first down from 10 yards to 15, and reducing the number of players on the field for one football team from 11 down to 8, and doing this all in one season. People are just going to say, "to hell with it".

Change is a good thing, but too much too fast and you'll lose your fan base, and this has been NASCAR's mode of operation ever since Brian France took the helm. All of your points are very much valid, but NASCAR has not been the same since Bill France, Jr. stepped down.

Spot on --- NASCAR under leadership of Brian France has been a joke! Constantly changing rules for care and championship formats. I use to follow NASCAR very closely and still do to an extent....but I did not realize until last weekend that in Brian France's infinite wisdom they are now doing some weird 'Heat Race' format at selected tracks on the Busch/Nationwide/Xfinity and Truck series races.

I realize that is Sprint Car and often Local Short track style.....but unless you are really versed in the details no one really understands the Sprint Car heat format with A-main/B-main/C-main/etc.... Plus NASCAR does already have somewhat of a heat format for both all-star races and that is ok, b/c it is an all-star race so do all kinds of goofy stuff -- who cares.

When the rules change so much that you:
- Have to read something before each race to see how it is going to actually be run
- Have to read up each year how the champion will be determined.
It is ridiculous and why NASCAR is so often compared to WWE. To go along with the rules tend to be selectively enforced and punishments vary widely depending on your last name.

Yup, BDK, Shady and Bleeding pretty much nailed everything. One thing I'd add is the squeezing out of the little guy. Moderately funded teams w/ lots of "racing smarts" & "mechanical know-how" could compete w/ the uber-corporate teams- not so much any more. It's just harder for the average car guy/gear head to relate. The whole charter system disgusts me (Ron Kaufmann). I use Brian France as my reference point for the pitfalls of nepotism.

Still, it'd be nice to have a last minute JMU/Duke Dog logo appear on the car on Sunday for the "local" race. Ratings and crowds are still solid, just not what they were at it's peak.

Interesting insights, thanks guys, my interest has certainly waned over the last 4+ years. Used to go to both Richmond races every year (Friday and Saturday) until I moved away. I'll add that I've always thought the season was ridiculously long (and you can't go head-to-head with the NFL!), but that doesn't explain why Bristol (Bristol for crying out loud!) looked practically empty in April when interest level should be high. I kind of like the Chase approach now though, I always thought a tournament-like postseason would be a good idea. But I think this sport should be in full crisis-mode after seeing those stands last Sunday, and TV ratings are apparently tanking as well. As long as the Wood Bros are still involved I'll try to keep a certain level of interest.

Spoke to Matt Dibenedito and Ron Devine at the track today. Ron took my son and me aside when we introduced ourselves as JMU alums. We talked a lot about JMU athletics. No new news though. Just repeated we will eventually move to FBS.

(04-23-2016 09:19 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Spoke to Matt Dibenedito and Ron Devine at the track today. Ron took my son and me aside when we introduced ourselves as JMU alums. We talked a lot about JMU athletics. No new news though. Just repeated we will eventually move to FBS.

Was that Ron saying that? Is he just a fan, or does he have any sort of "insider info." Or is that you saying we will eventually move

(04-25-2016 11:02 AM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  

(04-23-2016 09:19 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Spoke to Matt Dibenedito and Ron Devine at the track today. Ron took my son and me aside when we introduced ourselves as JMU alums. We talked a lot about JMU athletics. No new news though. Just repeated we will eventually move to FBS.

Was that Ron saying that? Is he just a fan, or does he have any sort of "insider info." Or is that you saying we will eventually move

I believe at one time Ron headed something in athletics. I think he was just repeating what we have been hearing from the administration, "It's not if, but when we go FBS".

(04-25-2016 11:21 AM)JMU83 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 11:02 AM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  

(04-23-2016 09:19 PM)JMU83 Wrote:  Spoke to Matt Dibenedito and Ron Devine at the track today. Ron took my son and me aside when we introduced ourselves as JMU alums. We talked a lot about JMU athletics. No new news though. Just repeated we will eventually move to FBS.

Was that Ron saying that? Is he just a fan, or does he have any sort of "insider info." Or is that you saying we will eventually move

I believe at one time Ron headed something in athletics. I think he was just repeating what we have been hearing from the administration, "It's not if, but when we go FBS".

Ron is a bit more connected than that and spent 8 years on the BOV.

(04-21-2016 10:02 AM)olddawg Wrote:  Yup, BDK, Shady and Bleeding pretty much nailed everything. One thing I'd add is the squeezing out of the little guy. Moderately funded teams w/ lots of "racing smarts" & "mechanical know-how" could compete w/ the uber-corporate teams- not so much any more. It's just harder for the average car guy/gear head to relate. The whole charter system disgusts me (Ron Kaufmann). I use Brian France as my reference point for the pitfalls of nepotism.

Still, it'd be nice to have a last minute JMU/Duke Dog logo appear on the car on Sunday for the "local" race. Ratings and crowds are still solid, just not what they were at it's peak.

Its pretty amazing how big the operations at the big teams have gotten. Again Bleeding would know far more, but I've heard the big multi car teams will have several hundred employees. Drivers, crew chiefs, pit crews, mechanics, fabricators, engineers, human resources, marketing, merchandizing, PR, drivers for the haulers, pilots, even flight attendants for the private planes, etc, etc, etc. Big operation with big costs and 8 figure primary sponsorships. Basically building their cars from the ground up to exacting specifications down to fractions of inches and ounces. NASCAR uses some type of pre race laser inspection process.

Looking at the current 36 charter holders it seems like about 10-11 are held by what I wouldn't consider "big $$" multi car teams. Teams like Front Row, Tommy Baldwin Racing, BK Racing, Circle Sport, HScott..The one teams that I would like to see have a charter is the #21 Wood Brothers...As far as the smaller teams being able to compete as well, that is true, but hasn't that been the case for a long time? (I wasn't following the sport in the 80s and only limited from the 90s-about 8-10 years ago).

I see pluses and minus to the Charter system but I've rambled long enough..