Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
Author Message
tigertom Offline
"Illegitimus Non Tatum Carborundum"
*

Posts: 20,481
Joined: Feb 2004
Reputation: 312
I Root For: Memphis Tigers
Location: USA & CO Dreaming

Donators
Post: #1
World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
It's time to start paying attention to our military leaders.

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/gen-m...g-smaller/
07-23-2015 05:36 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


stinkfist Offline
nuts zongo's in the house
*

Posts: 68,992
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 7082
I Root For: Mustard Buzzards
Location: who knows?
Post: #2
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
no it's not....that's the last thing we should be doing...

they always whine like this...
07-23-2015 05:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UConn-SMU Offline
often wrong, never in doubt
*

Posts: 12,961
Joined: Sep 2011
Reputation: 373
I Root For: the AAC
Location: Fuzzy's Taco Shop
Post: #3
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
Great ... now we have enough money to expand welfare, Medicaid, and SNAP to the middle class.

The Obama wet dream.
07-23-2015 06:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


stinkfist Offline
nuts zongo's in the house
*

Posts: 68,992
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 7082
I Root For: Mustard Buzzards
Location: who knows?
Post: #4
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 06:27 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Great ... now we have enough money to expand welfare, Medicaid, and SNAP to the middle class.

The Obama wet dream.

or use it for more useful purposes...like developing a useful economy starting with border security and rebuilding our infrastructure....

but you're right.....that is their dream....
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2015 06:30 AM by stinkfist.)
07-23-2015 06:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #5
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 05:36 AM)tigertom Wrote:  It's time to start paying attention to our military leaders.

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/gen-m...g-smaller/

This is only an issue if politicians believe that it's the US Armed Forces responsibility to deal with all the hot spots cropping up. All smaller military with less global presence does not mean that America is less safe.
07-23-2015 08:07 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,804
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #6
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
Also posted on Memphis political/religious board:

As I see it, we have three threat areas--Russia, China, and some rogue nation in the Middle East. Russia and China can potentially threaten us with nukes, the rogue Middle Eastern nation could threaten us with terror (they won't have a delivery vehicle to hit us with nukes for decades if not centuries). So step one is to make certain we are covered against those threats. That requires technology more than numbers. And a recognition that a lot of the terror threat loses interest if we quit trying to micromanage their internal affairs.

Now look at numbers. Bring home the troops deployed overseas in peacetime roles. That saves $20 billion in operating costs. Convert those from active duty positions to reserve positions. You can swap 400,000 actives for a million reservists and still save $20 billion. And you've substantially increased end strength if the balloon really goes up. The secret to having a powerful military at a sustainable cost is to keep a large portion of the force at a lowered state of readiness until needed. This also eliminates or at least significantly reduces the political temptation to meddle in other people's business as this force would be unsuited for that purpose. That's a good thing, a very good thing.

As for procurement, get away from paying out the nose for unproved cutting edge technology in everything we buy. Go back to Elmo Zumwalt's high/low mix procurement strategy that built the navy which ended the Cold War. The exotic stuff is really, really cool (when it works) and we need some of it to keep pace. But fill out the numbers with cheaper, proved technologies. We need fifth generation fighters if we have to take on Russia. But we don't need them against ISIS, if we choose to fight them. And even against Russia we're not going to see that much cutting edge stuff. They believe that quantity has a quality of its own, so they're going to throw a high-low mix at us, with more on the low end. We don't need to overspend on things like the F-35, the Ford carriers, the Zumwalt cruisers/destroyers (Elmo must be turning over in his grave), the LCSs, the San Antonio LPDs, and far too many others. We don't need Arleigh Burkes doing pirate patrol in the IO; it's not even a job they are particularly good at. And get their full useful life out of them. Don't go taking them out of service while they are still useful (A-10, Burkes, Perrys, for starters). Also, do design to cost, where we lock in a price and tell the contractor to give us the best he can for that price, instead of endless expensive change orders. And work with NATO allies to use a lot of their designs instead of having to invent everything from scratch. Saves design costs and overhead here, longer production runs allow allies to save costs and more fully equip their "for but not with" designs, and interoperability is increased. But keep focus so projects don't turn into F-35's. We built a minesweeper class supposedly based on the Italian Lerici class. But the Lericis were 700 tons, and the MCMs were 1500 tons. We can't have that kind of mission creep.

Armies are good at two things, per Norman Schwarzkopf--killing people and breaking things. So focus on war fighting and get rid of the extraneous stuff. McKinsey did a study of defense costs for OECD countries. The average OECD country spends 14% of its defense budget on combat, 23% on combat support, and 63% on admin and overhead. That's bad enough. But the US is far worse--9% combat, 14% combat support, 77% admin/overhead. Does that give you an idea how much we are wasting? Out of a roughly $600 billion current defense budget, some $150 billion is combat and combat support. If we were merely as efficient as our OECD brethren, we could spend that much on mission with a $400 billion total defense budget. Or preferably, we could spend $450-500 million with substantially increased combat capability and readiness. And focus that incremental readiness on dealing with the existential threats--nukes and terror. Get out of the nation-building business and save the money we are wasting trying to make people like us. Make them respect us--and fear us, if necessary.

Now go back to the threats. Russia is a land power with little capability to project beyond the GIUK gap, the Baltic, or the Black Sea (maybe the Med). They threaten Europe, that's pretty much it. China is also a land power, albeit one that is flexing its naval muscles a bit. They threaten the countries around the China Sea, but that's pretty much it. The Middle Eastern countries threaten each other, but none of them have any serious power projection capability. So let the allies defend themselves within the regions, with our reserve forces as a backup. Focus the Navy on containing those threats in the respective local areas and preventing any breakouts. Focus the Army and Air Force on what Gen. Milley calls the higher-end threats. Repurpose the Marines as commando and asymmetric warfare specialists, which fits well with their historic expeditionary force mission. In today's world, we need a much larger special forces than just the Green Berets, SEALs, and AFSOC. Those forces would be retained and would focus on working with Marines as liaison with Army/Navy/Air Force as needed.

Finally, never fight a war you don't intend to win. If we are ready to go in full-bore with overwhelming force and wide open rules of engagement, then go in, kill everybody who needs killing, break everything that needs breaking, and get the hell out, after making sure that whomever we leave in charge understands very clearly that if they don't behave we will be back to kill them. If we're not ready to do that, or the objective doesn't justify that, then don't risk one American life or limb in a half-assed military effort.

That's a leaner and meaner military that costs less and fights best. It wouldn't be worth a damn at nation-building, which is a good thing because we don't have any business nation-building.
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2015 08:32 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-23-2015 08:11 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
EverRespect Offline
Free Kaplony
*

Posts: 31,333
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 1159
I Root For: ODU
Location:
Post: #7
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 08:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Also posted on Memphis political/religious board:

As I see it, we have three threat areas--Russia, China, and some rogue nation in the Middle East. Russia and China can potentially threaten us with nukes, the rogue Middle Eastern nation could threaten us with terror (they won't have a delivery vehicle to hit us with nukes for decades if not centuries). So step one is to make certain we are covered against those threats. That requires technology more than numbers. And a recognition that a lot of the terror threat loses interest if we quit trying to micromanage their internal affairs.

Now look at numbers. Bring home the troops deployed overseas in peacetime roles. That saves $20 billion in operating costs. Convert those from active duty positions to reserve positions. You can swap 400,000 actives for a million reservists and still save $20 billion. And you've substantially increased end strength if the balloon really goes up. The secret to having a powerful military at a sustainable cost is to keep a large portion of the force at a lowered state of readiness until needed.

As for procurement, get away from paying out the nose for unproved cutting edge technology in everything we buy. Go back to Elmo Zumwalt's high/low mix procurement strategy that built the navy which ended the Cold War. The exotic stuff is really, really cool (when it works) and we need some of it to keep pace. But fill out the numbers with cheaper, proved technologies. We need fifth generation fighters if we have to take on Russia. But we don't need them against ISIS, if we choose to fight them. And even against Russia we're not going to see that much cutting edge stuff. They believe that quantity has a quality of its own, so they're going to throw a high-low mix at us, with more on the low end. We don't need to overspend on things like the F-35, the Ford carriers, the Zumwalt cruisers/destroyers (Elmo must be turning over in his grave), the LCSs, the San Antonio LPDs, and far too many others. We don't need Arleigh Burkes doing pirate patrol in the IO; it's not even a job they are particularly good at. And get their full useful life out of them. Don't go taking them out of service while they are still useful (A-10, Burkes, Perrys, for starters). Also, do design to cost, where we lock in a price and tell the contractor to give us the best he can for that price, instead of endless expensive change orders. And work with NATO allies to use a lot of their designs instead of having to invent everything from scratch. Saves design costs and overhead here, longer production runs allow allies to save costs and more fully equip their "for but not with" designs, and interoperability is increased. But keep focus so projects don't turn into F-35's. We built a minesweeper class supposedly based on the Italian Lerici class. But the Lericis were 700 tons, and the MCMs were 1500 tons. We can't have that kind of mission creep.

Armies are good at two things, per Norman Schwarzkopf--killing people and breaking things. So focus on war fighting and get rid of the extraneous stuff. McKinsey did a study of defense costs for OECD countries. The average OECD country spends 14% of its defense budget on combat, 23% on combat support, and 63% on admin and overhead. That's bad enough. But the US is far worse--9% combat, 14% combat support, 77% admin/overhead. Does that give you an idea how much we are wasting? Out of a roughly $600 billion current defense budget, some $150 billion is combat and combat support. If we were merely as efficient as our OECD brethren, we could spend that much on mission with a $400 billion total defense budget. Or preferably, we could spend $450-500 million with substantially increased combat capability and readiness. And focus that incremental readiness on dealing with the existential threats--nukes and terror. Get out of the nation-building business and save the money we are wasting trying to make people like us. Make them respect us--and fear us, if necessary.

Now go back to the threats. Russia is a land power with little capability to project beyond the GIUK gap, the Baltic, or the Black Sea (maybe the Med). They threaten Europe, that's pretty much it. China is also a land power, albeit one that is flexing its naval muscles a bit. They threaten the countries around the China Sea, but that's pretty much it. The Middle Eastern countries threaten each other, but none of them have any serious power projection capability. So let the allies defend themselves within the regions, with our reserve forces as a backup. Focus the Navy on containing those threats in the respective local areas and preventing any breakouts. Focus the Army and Air Force on what Gen. Milley calls the higher-end threats. Repurpose the Marines as commando and asymmetric warfare specialists, which fits well with their historic expeditionary force mission. In today's world, we need a much larger special forces than just the Green Berets, SEALs, and AFSOC. Those forces would be retained and would focus on working with Marines as liaison with Army/Navy/Air Force as needed.

Finally, never fight a war you don't intend to win. If we are ready to go in full-bore with overwhelming force and wide open rules of engagement, then go in, kill everybody who needs killing, break everything that needs breaking, and get the hell out, after making sure that whomever we leave in charge understands very clearly that if they don't behave we will be back to kill them. If we're not ready to do that, or the objective doesn't justify that, then don't risk one American life or limb in a half-assed military effort.

That's a leaner and meaner military that costs less and fights best. It wouldn't be worth a damn at nation-building, which is a good thing because we don't have any business nation-building.

This... excellent post.
07-23-2015 08:22 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #8
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 08:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Also posted on Memphis political/religious board:

As I see it, we have three threat areas--Russia, China, and some rogue nation in the Middle East. Russia and China can potentially threaten us with nukes, the rogue Middle Eastern nation could threaten us with terror (they won't have a delivery vehicle to hit us with nukes for decades if not centuries). So step one is to make certain we are covered against those threats. That requires technology more than numbers. And a recognition that a lot of the terror threat loses interest if we quit trying to micromanage their internal affairs.

snip

I disagree that any of these nations/regions present a credible threat to US Sovereignty. As you stated later in your post, the power projection capabilities of all of these players are limited. Thus, they are threats to America's allies or challenges to US primacy. You've advocated the US abandon the Middle East and I concur. I think that America should use the rise in global threats to leverage regional allies to carry a greater share of their national defense. Unless one is of the specious opinion that if you don't fight them over there or you'll fight them over here, America needs to implement a readiness stand-down that is reflective of the military security the country has.
07-23-2015 08:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,804
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #9
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 08:35 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(07-23-2015 08:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Also posted on Memphis political/religious board:
As I see it, we have three threat areas--Russia, China, and some rogue nation in the Middle East. Russia and China can potentially threaten us with nukes, the rogue Middle Eastern nation could threaten us with terror (they won't have a delivery vehicle to hit us with nukes for decades if not centuries). So step one is to make certain we are covered against those threats. That requires technology more than numbers. And a recognition that a lot of the terror threat loses interest if we quit trying to micromanage their internal affairs.
snip
I disagree that any of these nations/regions present a credible threat to US Sovereignty. As you stated later in your post, the power projection capabilities of all of these players are limited. Thus, they are threats to America's allies or challenges to US primacy. You've advocated the US abandon the Middle East and I concur. I think that America should use the rise in global threats to leverage regional allies to carry a greater share of their national defense. Unless one is of the specious opinion that if you don't fight them over there or you'll fight them over here, America needs to implement a readiness stand-down that is reflective of the military security the country has.

I think we are saying the same thing different ways. Maybe it would help if I called them three potential threat areas. I don't see any of them as an immediate existential threat, but I think we need to remain vigilant.

And I really think we need to upgrade in areas like cyber security and physical security at home. Our biggest threat right now is probably somebody sneaking in a nuke in a cargo container. And even if we detect it, if it's in Bayonne or San Pedro when we detect it, we're going to have a major problem.

The bottom line to me is that we don't have a strategy. Give us more money and we'll figure something out is not a strategy.
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2015 08:44 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-23-2015 08:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


vandiver49 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,589
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 315
I Root For: USNA/UTK
Location: West GA
Post: #10
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
(07-23-2015 08:43 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think we are saying the same thing different ways. Maybe it would help if I called them three potential threat areas. I don't see any of them as an immediate existential threat, but I think we need to remain vigilant.

And I really think we need to upgrade in areas like cyber security and physical security at home. Our biggest threat right now is probably somebody sneaking in a nuke in a cargo container. And even if we detect it, if it's in Bayonne or San Pedro when we detect it, we're going to have a major problem.

The bottom line to me is that we don't have a strategy. Give us more money and we'll figure something out is not a strategy.

Probably true. Because all I see any of the top brass arguing is that money is needed to field a larger, high tech force. With regard to strategy, in looking back on US history, I only count three geo-political goals that transcended multiple administrations:

Manifest Destiny/Native American Genocide
Monroe Doctrine/Hemispherical Dominance
Cold War Containment/MAD

Without the ability to pass from President to President, US strategy becomes susceptible to party influence and appears incoherent,
07-23-2015 08:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hitch Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,535
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 26
I Root For: Maryland
Location: Washington
Post: #11
RE: World threats are worse...Military getting smaller
Smaller government is smaller.
07-23-2015 11:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.