I am not sure how or why a bastardized version of the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia became a symbol of southern history. At least use the actual national flag of the Confederacy, the "stars and bars". It currently has none of the negative connotation of the battle flag, and still represent southern "history".

We were British colonies once maybe all the 13 colonies should fly the British Flag.

(06-23-2015 09:53 AM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  We were British colonies once maybe all the 13 colonies should fly the British Flag.

Greenville, NC still flys the British flag. The city flys all the flags that have been over the city in spot in town.

As a non-white this is the kind of thing that pisses me off. People have gotten to sensitive. Common sense has truly disappeared.

My people have more reason to hate white Europeans than African Americans. We were here first and what do we have to show for it?

It's on a Confederate memorial. It has a perfectly valid reason for being flown there. That's pretty much the end of it.

(06-23-2015 09:23 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I know it is no longer flying above the capitol building, but IMO its current location is still too much. It's still flying on the grounds of the capitol building. It's in a very prominent location right in front of the capitol building, arguably even more visible than the official flags flying on top.

It should come down, and be displayed behind a glass case inside the building, as part of a history exhibit.

I had family that fought in the war for the CSA. They fought because it was their home and identity. They did not own slaves. They were so poor that they picked cotton with the slaves. This is something that northerners do not understand about the southern identity. The flag represents our history and it cannot be equated to a flag that represented systematic genocide of an ethnic group. Don't get me wrong, there are people who are super racist that use the flag for their fun, but that doesn't change what the flag actually represents. Flying the flag over a Confederate Memorial is locationally relevant and appropriate. An American flag should not be flown over that memorial because they did not fight for it. They fought for the flag (or a variation of their state's flag) currently displayed there.

(06-23-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.

As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.

What you fail to understand is that if you made that argument in South Carolina, people would most likely respond with Rhett's famous line to Scarlett (if you have to look that up, you probably shouldn't be in any rational discussion about southern matters).

And by the way, aren't you a genocidal racist? How can you be a fan of the Illinois Illini without being one? What you represent is worse than the KKK.

Almost no one in the south cares what Nancy Pelosi, Al Sharpton, Barney Frank or Frank the Tank think about OUR symbols. Now what Black southerners think matters. They're us. You aren't.

(06-23-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.

As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.

Ouch, that is pretty strong stupidity on display right there.

Just bless your poor little heart.

At the end of the day, northerners cannot identify with this matter as it stands present day. They get their ideas about the Confederacy, flag, and those dang racists that fought for it out of a textbook. When in reality it is so much more that has nothing to do with race.

(06-23-2015 09:48 AM)bostonspider Wrote:  I am not sure how or why a bastardized version of the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia became a symbol of southern history. At least use the actual national flag of the Confederacy, the "stars and bars". It currently has none of the negative connotation of the battle flag, and still represent southern "history".

The official flag represents a corrupt incompetent seceding government. The battle flag represents the courage and honor of those who fought for 4 long years against overwhelming odds and through great hardship. And who laid down their arms instead of fighting a decades long guerilla war as some encouraged General Lee to do and General Johnston was ordered to do. It was the honor that caused the Union soldiers to give the surrendering rebel army at Appomattox the salute of honor. The official flag really doesn't have any of the positive connotations.

(06-23-2015 09:47 AM)VirginiaPirate Wrote:  Even the NC flag used to have the X on it but it was removed. I am all for respecting history but at some point we move forward and embrace "We the People". Just remove the X and keep the moon and palmetto tree. Much cooler anyway.

The official North Carolina flag never had a St Andrews cross on it.

(06-23-2015 10:41 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:23 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I know it is no longer flying above the capitol building, but IMO its current location is still too much. It's still flying on the grounds of the capitol building. It's in a very prominent location right in front of the capitol building, arguably even more visible than the official flags flying on top.

It should come down, and be displayed behind a glass case inside the building, as part of a history exhibit.

I had family that fought in the war for the CSA. They fought because it was their home and identity. They did not own slaves. They were so poor that they picked cotton with the slaves. This is something that northerners do not understand about the southern identity. The flag represents our history and it cannot be equated to a flag that represented systematic genocide of an ethnic group. Don't get me wrong, there are people who are super racist that use the flag for their fun, but that doesn't change what the flag actually represents. Flying the flag over a Confederate Memorial is locationally relevant and appropriate. An American flag should not be flown over that memorial because they did not fight for it. They fought for the flag (or a variation of their state's flag) currently displayed there.

If you really want the war to be memorialized fly a white flag over it, and put the confederate flag in a museum. Your "ethnic group" lost, get over it! Stare at it in a museum, don't have it flying over the US flag and amongst other citizens whose ancestors view the flag as something that symbolized oppression.

(06-23-2015 10:44 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.

As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.

Ouch, that is pretty strong stupidity on display right there.

Just bless your poor little heart.

How is it different?

(06-23-2015 10:42 AM)bullet Wrote:  What you fail to understand is that if you made that argument in South Carolina, people would most likely respond with Rhett's famous line to Scarlett (if you have to look that up, you probably shouldn't be in any rational discussion about southern matters).

I know my Gone with the Wind quotes.

Quote:And by the way, aren't you a genocidal racist? How can you be a fan of the Illinois Illini without being one? What you represent is worse than the KKK.

I supported the removal of Chief Illiniwek, which was the Native American mascot and symbol that the university used. The name "Illini" does not refer to any Native American tribe - it was instead the nickname for Illinois soldiers that fought in World War I. That's why the NCAA has not had an issue with the Illini name (unlike, say, the North Dakota Fighting Sioux).

Quote:Almost no one in the south cares what Nancy Pelosi, Al Sharpton, Barney Frank or Frank the Tank think about OUR symbols. Now what Black southerners think matters. They're us. You aren't.

I know that they don't care what Northerners think. The problem is the second part, which is that they haven't shown to care what black Southerners think up until now. Are there well-meaning people that truly just care about the Confederate flag for regional pride or historical purposes? Sure. However, it has been co-opted by too many hate groups to be thought of as some type of neutral symbol any more. Just because well-meaning people do not intend the flag to be offensive doesn't matter anymore - it has turned into an *inherently* offensive symbol in this era.

Liberal people from Congress are easy for Southerners to gloss over and a classic trope to pass it off as, "You're an outsider so what you think doesn't matter!" What should be more concerning is purely capitalist businesses that are disproportionately Republican pulling economic dollars out of a state or region in the name of a flag (or opposition to gay marriage or other hot button social issues). These aren't liberals - these are Republican business people that don't want to be associated with these stances (even if only because it's causing them to lose money). (FWIW, I've voted Republican in every single Presidential election since I've been able to vote since 1996. I'm not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination and I'm a pure economic conservative. Having said that, I know a lot of African-Americans, and the Confederate flag is just flat-out offensive to them, so let's stop with the platitudes that it somehow isn't or, even worse, "shouldn't" be taken that way.)

I don't have a problem with the Native American names for teams. Most Native Americans that I know don't. (You do have some that are sensitive about it but with every group of people have a few whiners.)

I don't have a problem with "The Redskins" anymore than I do "The Fighting Irish." I would like to see a team called "The Scuffling Caucasians" though.
CJ

Just FYI the American flag flew over the country for years under slavery and Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware all fought for the union and were slave states.

But I could care less either way about the flag and its location. There is an article on yahoo news where the guy in Pennsylvania is mad that his neighbor has a confederate flag in his yard. Why do people care that much its freedom of speech when its in your own yard. If he is going to have the flag fine do not be friends with him.

BUT Anyway back on topic what do you guys think about South Carolina and it potential for NCAA post season events?

NCAA is all about selling out to get to the top. Gotta be willing to sell out your morals, your dignity, and now your heritage to move up or even be considered in the NCAA world. Hop on the train or get left in the dust unfortunately...

(06-23-2015 12:23 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  Just FYI the American flag flew over the country for years under slavery and Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware all fought for the union and were slave states.

But I could care less either way about the flag and its location. There is an article on yahoo news where the guy in Pennsylvania is mad that his neighbor has a confederate flag in his yard. Why do people care that much its freedom of speech when its in your own yard. If he is going to have the flag fine do not be friends with him.

BUT Anyway back on topic what do you guys think about South Carolina and it potential for NCAA post season events?

But that same American Flag, became a symbol of freedom once Lincoln emancipated the slaves and black troops (many who were ex-slaves themselves) along with white troops fought Confederate troops for the freedom of black slaves and keep the south in the union. A union where "all men' are free to, " pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" .

(06-23-2015 09:28 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 07:05 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  Since the NCAA had banned planed post season events in S. Carolina because of the confederate flag at the capital. How quickly does this rule now get changed and how quickly is a bowl announced for Columbia or Charleston?

Considering it only took 150 years for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from the State Capital building, I think the rule should get changed around 2265, and the 300th anniversary of the Confederacy's defeat.

I don't think they should be praised for doing something that took severe financial penalties to initiate after a century and a half of struggle. Let them struggle for a while, like the next 150 years.

I could be wrong, but I don't think South Carolina put it on the Capital building until the 60's.

(06-23-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.

I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.

It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.

I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.

As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.

I think the part in bold is the key part of the argument. Is it really the fault of truly patriotic Southerners that their symbol has been co-opted by hate groups?

The German example does not apply because it was a hate symbol from the beginning. (I'd have no problem with actual Tibetan monks using a swastika).

I'm not a Southerner but I still don't think the Confederate flag was originally a racist symbol. If it was, why did Arkansas and Oklahoma fly the Confederate flag (neither had many slaves), while Kentucky and Delaware did not? Why did the South have more free blacks than the North? I just have a hard time believing that most Northerners (outside of a few New England advocacy groups) saw blacks any differently than most Southerners did.

A similar example of a co-opted symbol that's near and dear to me is the rainbow. It's a historic symbol of the Catholic Church (Catholic means "open to the whole world" and the rainbow is a symbol of the Church's acceptance of all peoples; it's also a reference to the Noah story). Yet the rainbow symbol has been co-opted by an ideology directly opposed to us, and many of the groups that preach this ideology hate us and want to outlaw everything that we stand for. Does that mean that paintings, murals, and windows in Churches and Cathedrals that include a rainbow should be removed to avoid giving the wrong impression about their stance on current political debates? Of course not; that would be ridiculous.

Whenever you're dealing with co-opted symbols, it's a complicated topic with plenty of emotions on both sides. It's tempting to automatically support the group that the hatred is directed towards, but that completely ignores both a) the rights of those who use the symbol peacefully, and b) the actual history of the symbol.

(Although who am I kidding? This issue has nothing to do with hateful vs peaceful use of symbols. Certain political groups will automatically support the historically oppressed minority, and if history and the rights of the majority get in the way, then let's rewrite history, screw over any white men who are affected, and call everyone who disagrees a racist.)