Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

(05-26-2015 03:06 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

Your anecdote is not indicative of the majority of police.

As we can't verify the authenticity of your story, it doesn't serve to "enlighten" anyone.

(05-26-2015 03:14 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 03:06 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

Your anecdote is not indicative of the majority of police.

As we can't verify the authenticity of your story, it doesn't serve to "enlighten" anyone.

Seems weird to point out that it's an anecdote and not very valuable when I'm pretty much stated those exact emotions. Also I was simply stating that it was enlightening to me, never stated it'd be enlightening to anyone else.

It almost comes off as you just wanted to be pedantic and rude.

(05-26-2015 03:20 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 03:14 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 03:06 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

Your anecdote is not indicative of the majority of police.

As we can't verify the authenticity of your story, it doesn't serve to "enlighten" anyone.

Seems weird to point out that it's an anecdote and not very valuable when I'm pretty much stated those exact emotions. Also I was simply stating that it was enlightening to me, never stated it'd be enlightening to anyone else.

It almost comes off as you just wanted to be pedantic and rude.

Well, not exactly. You said you weren't sure how valuable it was. I let you know that it wasn't at all.

In their training they should be explicitly informed that they are not "above" or "superior" to the civilian population. They are hired to serve, not to do their best SS impressions by constantly being dicks to people.

Some abuse is bound to occur. People need only have a reasonable avenue of recourse in the Courts.

Things like body cameras are more trouble than they are worth.

(05-26-2015 03:47 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  In their training they should be explicitly informed that they are not "above" or "superior" to the civilian population. They are hired to serve, not to do their best SS impressions by constantly being dicks to people.

Explain.

Oh....wait...

Drill into them that every small act of insubordination is not a direct threat to your life.

Remove all military hardware from police arsenals outside of appropriate semi-automatic rifles limited to highly trained and rarely utilized true SWAT teams. No more camo, no more black, no more armored cars, no more full battle rattle. Eliminating this mentality is imperative to changing police culture from "Us v Them" to "Protect and Serve."

At the last carnival I was at, you'd think ISIS was just around the corner looking at how the police presented themselves. Put police back on the beat - have them know their neighborhoods, have them know the citizens, have them know the business owners, and have them patrol in the barest of uniforms and armaments so they are less intimidating to the public.

These are two important steps to regaining the public trust, and to encourage law enforcement to take a more measured approach when dealing both with citizens and with criminals.

(05-26-2015 03:06 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

The police might have been on heightened alert due to either do to local issues or just a result of the national news regarding cops in your situation. One easy thing to improve the situation would be to eliminate laws that police are ill equipped to enforce. Better scenting of candidates would help as well.

Step one is to recognize that they are humans, therefore fallible and not perfect, and therefore some mistakes are going to be made.

Step two is to realize that even with the highly publicized recent incidents, the rate of occurrence of those mistakes is very, very low, certainly nowhere near a level to justify the hyperbolic levels of recent allegations.

Step three is for police and their supporters to realize that any rate of mistakes greater than zero is too high, and instead of circling the wagons after every incident, they need to be out from calling out the true screws just as vigorously as anyone else. They need to police themselves, and that means actually policing themselves, not rationalizing the mistakes that are made.

When steps one, two, and three are taken care of, then perhaps we can have some useful dialogue. But without those steps first, I'm not sure we can do more than scream at each other.

In perhaps more specific terms, this means that the people of Ferguson need to accept that the officer who shot Michael Brown was acting reasonably, and the police in Staten Island, and probably North Charleston and Baltimore (in both cases depending on all the facts to come out, but neither looks good for police at this point), need to recognize that the behaviours of the officers involved in those incidents were way outside the bounds of acceptable conduct. Until there's a strong voice of reason on both sides, we're not going to get anywhere.

(05-26-2015 05:11 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Remove all military hardware from police arsenals outside of appropriate semi-automatic rifles limited to highly trained and rarely utilized true SWAT teams. No more camo, no more black, no more armored cars, no more full battle rattle. Eliminating this mentality is imperative to changing police culture from "Us v Them" to "Protect and Serve."

At the last carnival I was at, you'd think ISIS was just around the corner looking at how the police presented themselves. Put police back on the beat - have them know their neighborhoods, have them know the citizens, have them know the business owners, and have them patrol in the barest of uniforms and armaments so they are less intimidating to the public.

These are two important steps to regaining the public trust, and to encourage law enforcement to take a more measured approach when dealing both with citizens and with criminals.

What color uniforms are acceptable?

What happens when a patrol officer rolls up on a situation where there is an active shooter armed with something far more powerful than the sidearm you want to limit him to? How many deaths are acceptable to allow for A. SWAT to assemble and B. to respond and arrive on scene?

What is law enforcement supposed to do when confronted with this?




That's extreme...but what about standard sporting rifle ammunition that will go through the standard police body armor like a knife through butter? What happens when they are confronted with that?

The law enforcement officers I know would love to be more community oriented, but because of funding cuts are usually spending their shifts going from call to call to call. The only interaction they have with the public is either the people they are taking reports from or the ones they are arresting.

Build more Dunkin Donuts.

(05-26-2015 04:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Some abuse is bound to occur. People need only have a reasonable avenue of recourse in the Courts.

Things like body cameras are more trouble than they are worth.

Mutual respect would help the cause. I've had some cases where I comply 100% with officers (hands on wheel, lights in car on if at night, wait for them to ask for ID before I reach for it) and things have gone just fine. I've had situations where I did the same exact thing and the cop was a d!ck from the get go. That doesn't help change a society to like/warm up.

For instance, we had a situation in my city where a guy was pulled over by a officer. The guy had a camera in the car and he had his window about half rolled down. The officer was telling him to get out of his car. He was asking "what did I do" and the officer repeatedly, and more angerly, kept telling (eventually yelling) at him to get out of the car. Mutual respect would have gone a long way in that situation. It is completely reasonable for a grown ass person to ask "why are you demanding I get out of my vehicle" when not knowing what they did in the first place.

I don't place the blame on the public in these situations because we are (as I am told) merely "civilians". The "trained" individuals in charge may need to resort to their training on how to dissolve situations without force all of the time.

(05-26-2015 04:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Some abuse is bound to occur. People need only have a reasonable avenue of recourse in the Courts.

Things like body cameras are more trouble than they are worth.

I can't even begin to state how much I disagree with this sentiment. Body cameras, if implemented properly, could result in the single largest change in police culture while simultaneously removing the overwhelming majority of police abuse cases which are almost certainly frivolous.

It won't solve every problem, not my any stretch of the imagination, but it sure will go a long way in allowing a more accurate recollection of events.

(05-26-2015 03:06 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 02:52 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Seeing as how people in every profession across the world screws up from time to time. How can we get the 1% of the police force that screws up when it comes to using force to not make mistakes?

I think a lot of it is with the culture of police forces needing to change. They are public servants, they're here to serve the public no differently than Fire Fighters or Teachers. And while their jobs do entail risks, I think it is often overstated in a way that becomes self-perpetuating in a sense.

I was pulled over recently for coasting through a yellow light. I pulled over at the closest intersection, used my signals, made sure I was entirely off of the road, and into a well-lit parking lot. Two police approached my car, asked me to show my hands, and I realized that one had a drawn approached the car with a weapon (not sure if it was a tazer or firearm, nighttime w/ the light in my eyes and all). It was clear that there wasn't some sort of call out on someone matching my description or car, at least they never mentioned anything of the sort, and that they think that's an appropriate way to handle someone running a red-light. I'm sorry, but it's not. If you run my plates and it comes back stolen, by all means take every precaution. If I take off when you hit your lights, by all means take every precaution. But this interaction was no higher risk than a tow truck driver or taxi picking up a fare, yet no one thinks they should approach every situation with a gun or tazer drawn.

Just a rant, not sure how valuable it is, but damn it was enlightening.

Those I-4 FHP Motorcycle Cops in Orlando can be Quite Arrogant. But I guess with the Tourists and Drug runners around They side on precaution.

(05-26-2015 05:11 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Remove all military hardware from police arsenals outside of appropriate semi-automatic rifles limited to highly trained and rarely utilized true SWAT teams. No more camo, no more black, no more armored cars, no more full battle rattle. Eliminating this mentality is imperative to changing police culture from "Us v Them" to "Protect and Serve."

At the last carnival I was at, you'd think ISIS was just around the corner looking at how the police presented themselves. Put police back on the beat - have them know their neighborhoods, have them know the citizens, have them know the business owners, and have them patrol in the barest of uniforms and armaments so they are less intimidating to the public.

These are two important steps to regaining the public trust, and to encourage law enforcement to take a more measured approach when dealing both with citizens and with criminals.

Back to the Good old Days ! Yeah !

(05-27-2015 06:10 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 04:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Some abuse is bound to occur. People need only have a reasonable avenue of recourse in the Courts.

Things like body cameras are more trouble than they are worth.

I can't even begin to state how much I disagree with this sentiment. Body cameras, if implemented properly, could result in the single largest change in police culture while simultaneously removing the overwhelming majority of police abuse cases which are almost certainly frivolous.

It won't solve every problem, not my any stretch of the imagination, but it sure will go a long way in allowing a more accurate recollection of events.

You need only see what body cameras catch 99/100 times, nothing, to see why they are useless.