I could see a scenario where the UK votes to leave the EU and then Scotland votes to secede and rejoin the EU. Not sure if that succession of events can actually occur in real life, but I think it would correctly reflect a lot of sympathies.

Certain people love to dish it out but they can't take it.

(05-12-2015 09:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I could see a scenario where the UK votes to leave the EU and then Scotland votes to secede and rejoin the EU. Not sure if that succession of events can actually occur in real life, but I think it would correctly reflect a lot of sympathies.

If that did actually happen, most of the Scottish people would eventually regret it, IMHO.

But however that may turn out one day, the most baffling part (to me) of the SNP/EU thing is this: How can a person both wish for Scottish "independence" and to remain a part of the EU at the same time? That's like wanting to be both hot and cold, all at once.

(05-12-2015 10:05 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 09:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I could see a scenario where the UK votes to leave the EU and then Scotland votes to secede and rejoin the EU. Not sure if that succession of events can actually occur in real life, but I think it would correctly reflect a lot of sympathies.

If that did actually happen, most of the Scottish people would eventually regret it, IMHO.

But however that may turn out one day, the most baffling part (to me) of the SNP/EU thing is this: How can a person both wish for Scottish "independence" and to remain a part of the EU at the same time? That's like wanting to be both hot and cold, all at once.

The issue with many Scots is that they want to be independent of the English, and more specifically, the Conservatives in England. They haven't been popular in the north for some time. The Scots don't particularly care for English Labour, but they loathe the Tories.

---

One additional issue with a possible Brexit would be what that would happen in Northern Ireland as well. Understand that there is a massive cleavage in Northern Ireland, along sectarian lines, regarding the EU. Ireland is in the EU, and will remain in the EU. The Loyalist or Ulster parties tend to be very Euroskeptic too. The "Irish" parties tend to be very supportive of the EU.

(05-12-2015 10:15 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 10:05 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 09:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I could see a scenario where the UK votes to leave the EU and then Scotland votes to secede and rejoin the EU. Not sure if that succession of events can actually occur in real life, but I think it would correctly reflect a lot of sympathies.

If that did actually happen, most of the Scottish people would eventually regret it, IMHO.

But however that may turn out one day, the most baffling part (to me) of the SNP/EU thing is this: How can a person both wish for Scottish "independence" and to remain a part of the EU at the same time? That's like wanting to be both hot and cold, all at once.

The issue with many Scots is that they want to be independent of the English, and more specifically, the Conservatives in England. They haven't been popular in the north for some time. The Scots don't particularly care for English Labour, but they loathe the Tories.

---

One additional issue with a possible Brexit would be what that would happen in Northern Ireland as well. Understand that there is a massive cleavage in Northern Ireland, along sectarian lines, regarding the EU. Ireland is in the EU, and will remain in the EU. The Loyalist or Ulster parties tend to be very Euroskeptic too. The "Irish" parties tend to be very supportive of the EU.

So every Scotsman is a bleeding heart socialist that wants independence from the UK because the Conservatives there aren't giving them enough free-****? Just plain independence isn't enough of a reason? I'll agree that a majority of Scots have voted Labour or Dem/Lib; but that's because they have benefited from an unbalanced advantage mostly endorsed by Labour. Pretty sure the first thing you'd see in an independent Scotland is the development of a strong center-right party. That's what tends to happen when the money starts coming out of YOUR pocket instead of your southern neighbor's pocket. Also pretty sure not liking one of the most socialist "Conservative" Parties on the planet plays only a tiny part in some Scotsman's desire for their own country's independence.

(05-12-2015 12:46 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 10:15 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 10:05 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 09:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I could see a scenario where the UK votes to leave the EU and then Scotland votes to secede and rejoin the EU. Not sure if that succession of events can actually occur in real life, but I think it would correctly reflect a lot of sympathies.

If that did actually happen, most of the Scottish people would eventually regret it, IMHO.

But however that may turn out one day, the most baffling part (to me) of the SNP/EU thing is this: How can a person both wish for Scottish "independence" and to remain a part of the EU at the same time? That's like wanting to be both hot and cold, all at once.

The issue with many Scots is that they want to be independent of the English, and more specifically, the Conservatives in England. They haven't been popular in the north for some time. The Scots don't particularly care for English Labour, but they loathe the Tories.

---

One additional issue with a possible Brexit would be what that would happen in Northern Ireland as well. Understand that there is a massive cleavage in Northern Ireland, along sectarian lines, regarding the EU. Ireland is in the EU, and will remain in the EU. The Loyalist or Ulster parties tend to be very Euroskeptic too. The "Irish" parties tend to be very supportive of the EU.

So every Scotsman is a bleeding heart socialist that wants independence from the UK because the Conservatives there aren't giving them enough free-****? Just plain independence isn't enough of a reason? I'll agree that a majority of Scots have voted Labour or Dem/Lib; but that's because they have benefited from an unbalanced advantage mostly endorsed by Labour. Pretty sure the first thing you'd see in an independent Scotland is the development of a strong center-right party. That's what tends to happen when the money starts coming out of YOUR pocket instead of your southern neighbor's pocket. Also pretty sure not liking the one of the most socialist "Conservative" Parties on the planet plays only a tiny part in some Scotsman's desire for their own country's independence.

The Scots feel that the Tory programme of running the entire country for the benefit of an elite in London's banking centre is not appealing (which is the perception of many in Scotland). If the Tories were focusing on other parts of the UK, such as Glascow and Edinburgh, there'd probably be less of an issue with many Scots. Understand, that one reason why the Scots voted for the SNP in such immense majorities was because they don't trust the Tories to fulfill the promises made to the Scots in order to keep them in the Union

Understand that many Scots feel that the UK has squandered decades of Scottish wealth in order to develop and enrich a class of English plutocrats in London. And the Tories are seen as the party of that group. BTW, that was what happened to the Tories in Alberta last week as well (where most Albertans realized that the boom is over - and what did the average Albertan get from it?).

The Scots aren't socialists, but they'd rather vote SNP than for the Tories.

BTW, I don't support Scottish independence. I support a strong Europe. Because that is in the interest of the USA. And strong EU = strong Europe.

(05-12-2015 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  snip

The Scots aren't socialists, but they'd rather vote SNP than for the Tories.

BTW, I don't support Scottish independence. I support a strong Europe. Because that is in the interest of the USA. And strong EU = strong Europe.

But at this point a strong EU is tacit support for a economically strong Germany (NATO being strong is a pipe dream). France, Greece and the UK are starting to reconsider the tradeoffs of such a position.

(05-13-2015 07:26 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(05-12-2015 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  snip

The Scots aren't socialists, but they'd rather vote SNP than for the Tories.

BTW, I don't support Scottish independence. I support a strong Europe. Because that is in the interest of the USA. And strong EU = strong Europe.

But at this point a strong EU is tacit support for a economically strong Germany (NATO being strong is a pipe dream). France, Greece and the UK are starting to reconsider the tradeoffs of such a position.

Yep, it is all about rebuilding the German power.

I was in Ireland this past week and got to watch a lot of discussions on the UK and the EU. The UK is becoming increasingly skeptical of being part of the EU. At the very least they intend to renegotiate the terms of their EU membership. They are going to hold a referendum on EU membership in 2016 or 2017. Scotland wants to stay in the EU, so you could end up in a situation where UK votes to leave and Scotland then votes for independence and to stay in the EU. The EU is way more integrated than I realized. Europe is truly on the verge of surrounding national sovereignty to the EU and its bureaucrats.

This election revealed huge holes in the electoral systems. UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one seat while the Scottish National Party got something like 56 or 58 seats with only 1.5 million votes. UKIP and Greens got screwed. The populace is calling for a change to how seats are apportioned.

Maybe I'm really dense but why do we really give a crap about their election results? It's like a buddy of mine said to me once. "I've not noticed a whole lot of difference in my personal life one way or the other regardless of who was in charge."

(05-13-2015 08:58 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Maybe I'm really dense but why do we really give a crap about their election results? It's like a buddy of mine said to me once. "I've not noticed a whole lot of difference in my personal life one way or the other regardless of who was in charge."

“If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal"-Emma Goldman