(05-14-2015 08:19 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: If they think they can pull off anything of any significant scale without strong state and local coordination, they're going to end up with a bloody frigging mess on their hands. This thing goes to September 15, which means school will be back in session. You start blocking roads to run military evolutions and as a result leave kids stuck on school buses for several hours, and you're going to have some major public relations issues. And that's only one of about ten thousand other things that we used to have to consider.
Just to clarify here -- are you meaning a literal bloody mess or a figurative bloody mess? So, large numbers of actual casualties/fatalities, or large numbers of PR disasters?
(05-14-2015 08:19 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: If they think they can pull off anything of any significant scale without strong state and local coordination, they're going to end up with a bloody frigging mess on their hands. This thing goes to September 15, which means school will be back in session. You start blocking roads to run military evolutions and as a result leave kids stuck on school buses for several hours, and you're going to have some major public relations issues. And that's only one of about ten thousand other things that we used to have to consider.
Just to clarify here -- are you meaning a literal bloody mess or a figurative bloody mess? So, large numbers of actual casualties/fatalities, or large numbers of PR disasters?
I should clarify my use of British idiom there to mean a figurative PR mess. Although I could see some minor flareups amounting to more. What I really don't understand is moving a bunch of hardware around now and parking it in places like the Cleveland Wal-Mart parking lot. That's just asking for trouble. Unless they are trying to create some sort of intimidation message by being showy, like a communist nation's May Day parade, I have a very difficult time understanding the rationale. It's not something that we would have ever considered, much less done.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 09:13 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
(05-14-2015 08:19 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: If they think they can pull off anything of any significant scale without strong state and local coordination, they're going to end up with a bloody frigging mess on their hands. This thing goes to September 15, which means school will be back in session. You start blocking roads to run military evolutions and as a result leave kids stuck on school buses for several hours, and you're going to have some major public relations issues. And that's only one of about ten thousand other things that we used to have to consider.
Just to clarify here -- are you meaning a literal bloody mess or a figurative bloody mess? So, large numbers of actual casualties/fatalities, or large numbers of PR disasters?
I should clarify my use of British idiom there to mean a figurative PR mess. Although I could see some minor flareups amounting to more. What I really don't understand is moving a bunch of hardware around now and parking it in places like the Cleveland Wal-Mart parking lot. That's just asking for trouble. Unless they are trying to create some sort of intimidation message by being showy, like a communist nation's May Day parade, I have a very difficult time understanding the rationale. It's not something that we would have ever considered, much less done.
What is the Cleveland Wal-Mart thing you keep bringing up? A quick google search turned up nothing for me regarding Jade Helm and a Wal-Mart in Cleveland.
The Wal-Mart there was one of the ones closed for "plumbing repairs" and there was a bunch of military hardware parked there the other day. I did not see it myself, but some friends did and posted photos.
(05-16-2015 03:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: The Wal-Mart there was one of the ones closed for "plumbing repairs" and there was a bunch of military hardware parked there the other day. I did not see it myself, but some friends did and posted photos.
Color me a bit skeptical, especially since the Wal-Mart closures actually gained some traction, even connected to the Jade Helm thing, but there is no mention of military equipment at a closed Wal-Mart (which would most likely be the Livingston Wal-Mart anyways, since there doesn't appear to be one closed in Cleveland per multiple sources.)
Sounds more similar to the pictures that surfaced of those FEMA coffins.
(05-16-2015 04:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: Color me a bit skeptical, especially since the Wal-Mart closures actually gained some traction, even connected to the Jade Helm thing, but there is no mention of military equipment at a closed Wal-Mart (which would most likely be the Livingston Wal-Mart anyways, since there doesn't appear to be one closed in Cleveland per multiple sources.)
Sounds more similar to the pictures that surfaced of those FEMA coffins. http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspirac...offins.asp
I was thinking Cleveland because the friends whose comments I am relaying were from Cleveland, but they could have meant Livingston. Neither one would be a sufficiently secure place to park military hardware. I'm relying on the word of others, did not drive over and see myself. I did see some photos that looked like the vicinity of the Cleveland Wal-Mart, but you could probably find plenty of pictures of military hardware on flat ground with pine trees in the background. There have been a bunch of Facebook postings of sightings elsewhere around the state. I have not checked out any of them personally. Not sure about your google search, I did a quick one on the same terms and came up with pages of references. Didn't check out the locations listed for all of them. I probably shouldn't have used Cleveland as a specific example without having gone over and seen for myself. I'll be driving by there Tuesday, will take a look for myself, and if there's any equipment there I will take photos.
The main reason I would be a bit skeptical is that based on the timing of the exercise, and particularly given the supposed purpose, this would seem to be way too early to start moving any significant amounts of equipment. I think I noted that earlier.
I think the bottom line is that this whole incident illustrates the extent to which there is a level of distrust of the federal government. For the record, since the point has been raised by others, I think that distrust is 0% because of the race of the president and 100% because of the performance of that government at all levels, especially the civil service bureaucracy.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 04:49 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
(05-16-2015 04:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: Color me a bit skeptical, especially since the Wal-Mart closures actually gained some traction, even connected to the Jade Helm thing, but there is no mention of military equipment at a closed Wal-Mart (which would most likely be the Livingston Wal-Mart anyways, since there doesn't appear to be one closed in Cleveland per multiple sources.)
Sounds more similar to the pictures that surfaced of those FEMA coffins. http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspirac...offins.asp
I was thinking Cleveland because the friends whose comments I am relaying were from Cleveland, but they could have meant Livingston. Neither one would be a sufficiently secure place to park military hardware. I'm relying on the word of others, did not drive over and see myself. I did see some photos that looked like the vicinity of the Cleveland Wal-Mart, but you could probably find plenty of pictures of military hardware on flat ground with pine trees in the background. There have been a bunch of Facebook postings of sightings elsewhere around the state. I have not checked out any of them personally. Not sure about your google search, I did a quick one on the same terms and came up with pages of references. Didn't check out the locations listed for all of them. I probably shouldn't have used Cleveland as a specific example without having gone over and seen for myself. I'll be driving by there Tuesday, will take a look for myself, and if there's any equipment there I will take photos.
The main reason I would be a bit skeptical is that based on the timing of the exercise, and particularly given the supposed purpose, this would seem to be way too early to start moving any significant amounts of equipment. I think I noted that earlier.
I think the bottom line is that this whole incident illustrates the extent to which there is a level of distrust of the federal government. For the record, since the point has been raised by others, I think that distrust is 0% because of the race of the president and 100% because of the performance of that government at all levels, especially the civil service bureaucracy.
Agreed. But not 100% because of this administration, but because of actions taken by the US government for near all time. Having a healthy skepticism of the government is warranted based upon numerous occurrences throughout history, but this still seems a bit of an overreaction, IMO.
(05-16-2015 05:09 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: Agreed. But not 100% because of this administration, but because of actions taken by the US government for near all time. Having a healthy skepticism of the government is warranted based upon numerous occurrences throughout history, but this still seems a bit of an overreaction, IMO.
Totally agree.
That's why I made the point about the bureaucratic level and not the top level. The civil service doesn't turn over from administration to administration, although partisans on both sides like to act as if it does.
That's also why I made the point about what would normally be done from a PR standpoint.
I think what's happened here is that somebody has dropped the ball badly. Seems to me that the best solution would be for the Pentagon and Abbott to have some sort of joint press conference to calm the waters. I don't see any sign of that happening and I wonder why not.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 05:13 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
(05-16-2015 03:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: The Wal-Mart there was one of the ones closed for "plumbing repairs" and there was a bunch of military hardware parked there the other day. I did not see it myself, but some friends did and posted photos.
Color me a bit skeptical, especially since the Wal-Mart closures actually gained some traction, even connected to the Jade Helm thing, but there is no mention of military equipment at a closed Wal-Mart (which would most likely be the Livingston Wal-Mart anyways, since there doesn't appear to be one closed in Cleveland per multiple sources.)
Sounds more similar to the pictures that surfaced of those FEMA coffins. http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspirac...offins.asp
I am attaching some photos which friends have sent me today from Trinity. I post them without comment or opinion. Again, I have not verified them personally, but I have no reason to doubt the credibility of those who sent them to me. I believe them to be real photos. I recognize the location, it is on Highway 19 where it crosses the Trinity River about 2 miles or so south of Trinity.
As I've stated earlier, I have doubts about whether these are related to Jade Helm. This is way too long before the stated dates for that exercise to be doing this sort of stuff. There are just way, way too many things going on that make no sense.
There really needs to be some sort of press conference involving Abbott and Pentagon representatives to clear the air on this.
Sorry, are you saying that there should be an Abbott/Pentagon press conf on the Jade Helm issue, or on the Trinity pictures?
I think you're referring to the former -- if so, then unfortunately I don't see any upside for Abbott to clearing the air. I don't see any reason to assume that the military hasn't coordinated with state and local governments in the same manner that they've done in all prior/similar exercises, but there's more political hay to be made by posturing with the
On the Trinity issue, did your friends who took the photos ask any of the personnel what was going on? That probably would have been the most straightforward way to answer the question. Also, what was the relation to a Walmart?
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2015 02:00 PM by JOwl.)
(05-14-2015 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: It seems more likely that he isn't telling the whole truth, and is intentionally leaving out the fact that he was aware of these training exercises, consented to them, and didn't want to inform the public unless absolutely necessary.
Then he's lying, and needs to be called out on it.
I'm not following you here. What has Abbott said that could be construed as a lie (assuming for the moment that his office was properly informed of the exercise)? Nothing that I've seen.
(05-14-2015 10:23 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Then he's lying, and needs to be called out on it.
I'm not following you here. What has Abbott said that could be construed as a lie (assuming for the moment that his office was properly informed of the exercise)? Nothing that I've seen.
"It seems more likely that he isn't telling the whole truth, and is intentionally leaving out the fact that he was aware of these training exercises, consented to them, and didn't want to inform the public unless absolutely necessary."
That's lying.
Quote:I'm not sure this has been posted here yet, but the deck that Alex Jones originally culled from to create this furor is available online: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3axduuy...JsZTA/edit
I don't see anything objectionable there.
I'd seen that earlier. That's a typical document to prepare for situations like this. We didn't have PowerPoint back in my day, but this is one of the kinds of things we would do. This doesn't evidence the proper preparation, but would suggest this isn't the surprise that Abbott is acting like it is.
From your other post,
Quote:I don't see any reason to assume that the military hasn't coordinated with state and local governments in the same manner that they've done in all prior/similar exercises,
Again the PowerPoint suggests there has been some effort. Abbott's comments suggests that effort has not been sufficient. Having played this game for a few Reforgers (as well as the stateside end of Desert Storm, for that matter), this simply having been handled properly on all sides. I can see Abbott milking it for political purposes. I can see Obama milking it to send an intimidation message. I suspect there's more than a little of both. And both are pretty awful. If I'd been the PAO on this one, either it would have been handled differently or I would have seen to it that I got fired.
Why it hasn't, and who has screwed the pooch worse, are not things that I can determine from my position. I'm inclined at this point to give everybody an F minus. This situation should never have gotten to the point that it has. There's enough distrust of government for valid reasons that government doesn't need to go acting unnecessarily untrustworthy.
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2015 02:38 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
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When do Texans say enough is enough?
