(03-25-2015 08:46 AM)Paul M Wrote:  No.

Were our words too big for you?

(03-25-2015 08:25 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 07:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 06:49 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Sigh. Comparing something as complicated and personal as gender identity to thinking you're a tree or delusions of grandeur? You guys are awesome. Golf clap for the insensitivity here.

Quote:Pure and simple...gotta dick?...aint a chick.

Oh but if life were that simple. There are tons of developmental disorders that give rise to gender and sex complications. Turners syndrome, Klinefelter, Guevedoce (5 alpha reductase deficiency), Jacobs syndrome, Androgen Insensitivity syndrome, to name a few.

Gender identity and even chromosomal sex are not always black and white. Who are we to paint a broad stroke to every child? Have some compassion.

While complicated, you'd have to acknowledge that the English language lacks the descriptors for the various conditions you've mentioned, making the situation difficult. I guess we can go to India and import some of theirs, but suggesting that definitions of male and female aren't fixed is to close to newspeak for my taste. Their is a TG Female that would like to fight in the women's division of the UFC and IMO gender self identification doesn't justify inclusion.

It depends on what you're saying is a fixed sex. Now if we want to discuss chromosomal sex, then yes it's fixed. You're either male or female. I consider syndromes with XXY or XYY to still be chromosomal male. XO/XX/XXX to be chromosomal sex of female.

But chromosomal sex does not = gender identity. That's a social construct. It gets complicated when you throw in issues of transgender identity and more complicated topics like epigenetics. I won't deny that. That's why I offer no solution other then to be understanding and compassionate on a tumultuous topic.

Labeling people "its" is just blatantly offensive. She wants to be a she, is transitioning, so respect that.

I don't see how you can say these are the same...

XX female ID = woman
XX male ID = woman

And conflating those to will ultimately result in low level issues like the one I mentioned with MMA as well as people entering relationships. Because one can be of a female mind and hook up with a guy, but when the rubber meets the road and the fact that the DNA says XX is revealed, it's now a case of fraud.

There why I said the flaw was in the language and why I agree that using 'it' is pointless and demeaning.

(03-25-2015 05:45 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:11 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(03-24-2015 01:00 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 07:16 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The girls shouldn't have to put up with that.

It should have its own time and place to use a locker room.

It's nothing against it but others shouldn't have to be put in a compromising position to make it feel better.

BTW, I use 'it' because I don't know what else to refer to it as.

"It" identifies as female. So maybe you should refer to HER that way.

I self identify as the King of England but that rarely works out in London.

I demand to be addressed as "Your Highness".

Your Hiney? Isn't a hiney and an S the same thing? Your Hiney's S.

(03-25-2015 09:15 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 08:25 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 07:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 06:49 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Sigh. Comparing something as complicated and personal as gender identity to thinking you're a tree or delusions of grandeur? You guys are awesome. Golf clap for the insensitivity here.

Quote:Pure and simple...gotta dick?...aint a chick.

Oh but if life were that simple. There are tons of developmental disorders that give rise to gender and sex complications. Turners syndrome, Klinefelter, Guevedoce (5 alpha reductase deficiency), Jacobs syndrome, Androgen Insensitivity syndrome, to name a few.

Gender identity and even chromosomal sex are not always black and white. Who are we to paint a broad stroke to every child? Have some compassion.

While complicated, you'd have to acknowledge that the English language lacks the descriptors for the various conditions you've mentioned, making the situation difficult. I guess we can go to India and import some of theirs, but suggesting that definitions of male and female aren't fixed is to close to newspeak for my taste. Their is a TG Female that would like to fight in the women's division of the UFC and IMO gender self identification doesn't justify inclusion.

It depends on what you're saying is a fixed sex. Now if we want to discuss chromosomal sex, then yes it's fixed. You're either male or female. I consider syndromes with XXY or XYY to still be chromosomal male. XO/XX/XXX to be chromosomal sex of female.

But chromosomal sex does not = gender identity. That's a social construct. It gets complicated when you throw in issues of transgender identity and more complicated topics like epigenetics. I won't deny that. That's why I offer no solution other then to be understanding and compassionate on a tumultuous topic.

Labeling people "its" is just blatantly offensive. She wants to be a she, is transitioning, so respect that.

I don't see how you can say these are the same...

XX female ID = woman
XX male ID = woman

And conflating those to will ultimately result in low level issues like the one I mentioned with MMA as well as people entering relationships. Because one can be of a female mind and hook up with a guy, but when the rubber meets the road and the fact that the DNA says XX is revealed, it's now a case of fraud.

There why I said the flaw was in the language and why I agree that using 'it' is pointless and demeaning.

Chromosomal sex is a definitive biological fact. Gender identity is a social construct and open to interpretation (clearly!). It appears you don't agree with that. It will make this conversation hard from hereout. It happens tho.

Is not knowing what sex you are considered a mental disorder by the medical profession?

Yes (ish). Being discontent with how you look compared to who you think you are is the disorder.

There's a disorder in the DSM5 called gender dysphoria. This is dis-contentedness with one's current gender phenotypic expression. Treatment is either counselling or surgery to correct one's appearance. The idea here isn't necessarily that someone feels like they are an opposing gender to sex chromosome identity and more of a disorder in the discontent feeling. So when content I guess the diagnosis goes away.

It's controversial that it's in the DSM though (more for social reasons than diagnostic).

(03-25-2015 11:20 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 09:15 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  I don't see how you can say these are the same...

XX female ID = woman
XX male ID = woman

And conflating those to will ultimately result in low level issues like the one I mentioned with MMA as well as people entering relationships. Because one can be of a female mind and hook up with a guy, but when the rubber meets the road and the fact that the DNA says XX is revealed, it's now a case of fraud.

There why I said the flaw was in the language and why I agree that using 'it' is pointless and demeaning.

Chromosomal sex is a definitive biological fact. Gender identity is a social construct and open to interpretation (clearly!). It appears you don't agree with that. It will make this conversation hard from hereout. It happens tho.

Well I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult, that would defeat the purpose of this board. I honestly didn't think we were that divergent since I thought I agreed that social constructs are by there very nature fluid. The question them becomes who/what dominates the interpretation.

(03-25-2015 12:13 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:20 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Chromosomal sex is a definitive biological fact. Gender identity is a social construct and open to interpretation (clearly!). It appears you don't agree with that. It will make this conversation hard from hereout. It happens tho.

Well I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult, that would defeat the purpose of this board. I honestly didn't think we were that divergent since I thought I agreed that social constructs are by there very nature fluid. The question them becomes who/what dominates the interpretation.

This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Chromosomal sex is all that matters. The rest are just feelings. And that can be addressed with a swift kick in the ass.

A boy wants to be a girl. That is not something to indulge.

(03-25-2015 12:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Chromosomal sex is all that matters. The rest are just feelings. And that can be addressed with a swift kick in the ass.

False. Environment can shape genetic expressioasin conjunction with varying hormonal influences on development. Its a hugely complicated and complex discussion.

Your black and white refutations in this thread are proof that these discussions are just over your head.

(03-25-2015 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:13 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:20 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Chromosomal sex is a definitive biological fact. Gender identity is a social construct and open to interpretation (clearly!). It appears you don't agree with that. It will make this conversation hard from hereout. It happens tho.

Well I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult, that would defeat the purpose of this board. I honestly didn't think we were that divergent since I thought I agreed that social constructs are by there very nature fluid. The question them becomes who/what dominates the interpretation.

This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Unfortunately its not the only thing that dictates cognitive development. If it were this would be an easy end to the debate!!!!

(03-25-2015 01:15 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Unfortunately its not the only thing that dictates cognitive development. If it were this would be an easy end to the debate!!!!

So what?

(03-25-2015 01:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:15 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Unfortunately its not the only thing that dictates cognitive development. If it were this would be an easy end to the debate!!!!

So what?

If it isn't the only thing dictating cognitive development why should we pretend like it's the only relevant dictator of gender identity?

(03-25-2015 01:12 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Chromosomal sex is all that matters. The rest are just feelings. And that can be addressed with a swift kick in the ass.

False. Environment can shape genetic expressioasin conjunction with varying hormonal influences on development. Its a hugely complicated and complex discussion.

Your black and white refutations in this thread are proof that these discussions are just over your head.

But who or what determines the social definition of man and women? The words have to posses meaning.

(03-25-2015 01:56 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:15 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Unfortunately its not the only thing that dictates cognitive development. If it were this would be an easy end to the debate!!!!

So what?

If it isn't the only thing dictating cognitive development why should we pretend like it's the only relevant dictator of gender identity?

Hmmm, maybe because cognitive development =/= gender identity?

If there are many factors impacting cognitive development, let's work first on those factors which aren't so easily capable of objective determination.

(03-25-2015 03:39 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:56 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:15 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is the crux of the matter. Chromosomal sex should dominate. It's the one that is capable of objective evaluation.

Unfortunately its not the only thing that dictates cognitive development. If it were this would be an easy end to the debate!!!!

So what?

If it isn't the only thing dictating cognitive development why should we pretend like it's the only relevant dictator of gender identity?

Hmmm, maybe because cognitive development =/= gender identity?

If there are many factors impacting cognitive development, let's work first on those factors which aren't so easily capable of objective determination.

That's where current research is ongoing. Epigenetics, germ line investigations, sexual differentiation, organizational/activational hormone research etc.

The social implications and debate are currently outpacing some of the literature understandings. Shrug. IMHO. I'm as layman on this (gender identity) as anyone.

(03-25-2015 02:33 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 01:12 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 12:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Chromosomal sex is all that matters. The rest are just feelings. And that can be addressed with a swift kick in the ass.

False. Environment can shape genetic expressioasin conjunction with varying hormonal influences on development. Its a hugely complicated and complex discussion.

Your black and white refutations in this thread are proof that these discussions are just over your head.

But who or what determines the social definition of man and women? The words have to posses meaning.

What field of science do you wanna start with? ;D

I think each has it's own definition. Maybe part of the problem? It doesn't seem to be too PC to make a definitive.

I know nothing of LGBTQ culture and I do NOT believe in gay marriage, but .... I thought I read that the likely cause of transgender "syndrome" is that the baby's brain is mistakenly saturated with the hormones of the opposite gender while in the womb, so the child is actually born with a brain that is cross-wired with the physical body.

If that is true, I'm somewhat sympathetic with these kids. I'm also still suspicious of parents who insist their pre-school child is transgender. I guess at this point, I don't know what to believe.

(03-25-2015 11:03 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I know nothing of LGBTQ culture and I do NOT believe in gay marriage, but .... I thought I read that the likely cause of transgender "syndrome" is that the baby's brain is mistakenly saturated with the hormones of the opposite gender while in the womb, so the child is actually born with a brain that is cross-wired with the physical body.

If that is true, I'm somewhat sympathetic with these kids. I'm also still suspicious of parents who insist their pre-school child is transgender. I guess at this point, I don't know what to believe.

During development, SRY gene (on Y chromosome) produces a protein called SRY protein. This leads to a cascade of protein transcription that ultimately leads to development of the testes from primordial gonad (undifferentiated gonadal tissue). The testes produce testosterone which then makes it's way to the brain, is converted there to estrogen, and masculinizes and defeminizes the brain. Females do not have this testosterone at the critical period (or limited amounts anyway) and as a result their brain is actively feminized.

This is how the brain masculinizes itself or stays in the more preset feminized lane.

Alpha fetoprotein is a protein that binds maternal estrogen, prevent mom's E from masculinizing females.


Any dysregulation of this (exposure of females to T during critical period, insensitivity of receptors to these hormones, etc.) can lead to developmental syndromes/disorders/defects if you will. I listed a laundry list of them in an earlier post.



THAT BEING SAID: to argue that THIS is the sole cause or even main cause for transgender subjects is a bit misguided. The truth is we don't know know. There is no one definitive mechanism we can point at and say yup, that's it.


Shrug.