I love it when libs use "Israel" and "apartheid" in the same sentence.

Israeli society is much, much closer to being like our own society than South Africa circa 1950. If the Palestinians are restricted in any way it's because they're animals; they can't stop bombing Israeli buses and restaurants, so they must be kept behind a wall.

Libs always interpret the bad guys to be good, and the good guys to be bad. The world turned upside down.

(03-25-2015 09:50 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I love it when libs use "Israel" and "apartheid" in the same sentence.

Israeli society is much, much closer to being like our own society than South Afica circa 1950. If the Palestinians are restricted in any way it's because they're animals; they can't stop bombing Israeli buses and restaurants, so they must be kept behind a wall.

Libs always interpret the bad guys to be good, and the good guys to be bad. The world turned upside down.

And you've based this on what? Have you been to Israel? Have you been to Ramallah? Have you been to Mea Sharim? How about Ariel?

Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties. Due process, rule of law, and civil rights? You'll never see them.

Tel Aviv is great. Its a wonderful, pro-Western city that Israel loves to show visitors. Haifa is good too. But that's not Bibi's Israel. Tel Aviv is Herzog territory. If Tel Aviv were the reality for Israel, few would have problems with them. But its not. And most Israelis cannot afford to live there. And most Isreali Arabs cannot move there. And Arabs who were born in the camps cannot ever go there. Tel Aviv is a facade. I love Tel Aviv. But its not the reality of Israel.

By the way, please tell me about your sources and how you formed your opinion. Here's a hint. The issue of settlements isn't applicable to Hamas (Gaza). There are no settlements there.

Its complicated. There are good and bad guys on both sides.

(03-25-2015 10:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties.

Preaching to the choir.

Everyone already understands and agrees the conditions for a poor Palestinians are horrible and they are trapped in the middle of an awful holy war. But this is what happens when the majority of your "governments" refuse to accept Israel's existence as a nation and continuously call for their total annihilation. The problem is too many of the Palestinian people have been supporting terror for decades and continue to supporter terrorism to this day.

To say the Hammas is embedded in the Palestinian people is like saying heat is embedded in a raging inferno. Or stink is embedded in a fresh pile of chit.

(03-25-2015 05:27 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 04:42 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Even if that's true, it doesn't dispute the fact that Iran was not supporting ISIS, not in any meaningful way, and I don't believe these ideas of conspiracy either. Iran benefits not because of ISIS, but because Hussein is gone.

I don't think that Iran directly provided material support to ISIS. However, I don't think Assad would've made the moves that he did without Iranian signoff because Iran has been deeply involved in rescuing Assad from the early stages of the revolution there. I don't think that events were carefully scripted by Assad or by Iran, but there is really only one way for things to go with the actions that both Assad and al Maliki took, and that is that the opposition in Syria would be narrowed down to militant Islamists and that Sunnis would rise up in Western Iraq.

You have portrayed my narrative as a conspiracy theory. Assad and Iran are conspiring together - that is an indisputable fact at this stage. Iraq's Shia leadership and Iran are conspiring together - that is also an indisputable fact. I have provided information to substantiate Assad's actions (here).

You are correct that Iran benefits from the absence of Sadaam. But, their foothold in Iraq is much greater now because of ISIS. Iran benefits from ISIS because the heat to push Assad out of power has lost all traction. Iran benefits because of favorable comparisons such as the following...

(03-25-2015 01:07 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  By the way, do you think Iran with a bomb is a worse problem for the US than Pakistan having the bomb? Iran opposes ISIS. Iran opposes Al-Qaida. Iran and the US have worked together on the down low for years on a variety of issues where our interests align. Iran isn't our friend. But are they much worse than Pakistan?

They didn't conspire to create ISIS, or allow ISIS to become as big as they have. They're both Shia so they're both fighting ISIS. If it hadn't been ISIS it would have been some other Sunni group, because Sunnis had been running the country and now they can't, due to the majority Shia. They don't have enough control through the government, so they turn to violence. Not too surprising. And the factions in Syria were never going to do much to Assad without outside help.

(03-25-2015 11:02 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 10:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties.

Preaching to the choir.

Everyone already understands and agrees the conditions for a poor Palestinians are horrible and they are trapped in the middle of an awful holy war. But this is what happens when the majority of your "governments" refuse to accept Israel's existence as a nation and continuously call for their total annihilation. The problem is too many of the Palestinian people have been supporting terror for decades and continue to supporter terrorism to this day.

To say the Hammas is embedded in the Palestinian people is like saying heat is embedded in a raging inferno. Or stink is embedded in a fresh pile of chit.

Ok. How about if the Palestinians in the West Bank simply announce. 'We recognize the state of Israel and demand the vote in a one person one vote proportional representation scenario' where only residents of Israel can vote. Israel would then have the following demographic makeup. 58% Jewish, 38% Arab, 4% Other. With a rapidly growing Arab population. And that doesn't include Gaza.

Hamas isn't the West Bank.

(03-25-2015 10:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And you've based this on what? Have you been to Israel? Have you been to Ramallah? Have you been to Mea Sharim? How about Ariel?
Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties. Due process, rule of law, and civil rights? You'll never see them.
Tel Aviv is great. Its a wonderful, pro-Western city that Israel loves to show visitors. Haifa is good too. But that's not Bibi's Israel. Tel Aviv is Herzog territory. If Tel Aviv were the reality for Israel, few would have problems with them. But its not. And most Israelis cannot afford to live there. And most Isreali Arabs cannot move there. And Arabs who were born in the camps cannot ever go there. Tel Aviv is a facade. I love Tel Aviv. But its not the reality of Israel.
By the way, please tell me about your sources and how you formed your opinion. Here's a hint. The issue of settlements isn't applicable to Hamas (Gaza). There are no settlements there.
Its complicated. There are good and bad guys on both sides.

But here's the problem. What's your solution? Two states based on the pre-1967 borders?

That leaves Israel unable to defend its borders. You've been there. What's the elevation change climbing out from the Jordan to the West Bank? What's the elevation change at the pre-1967 borders? Which is easier to defend? Now how far is it from the pre-1967 borders to the Med? 10 miles, give or take, for about a 40 mile length of border? How do you defend that from an invading enemy? So what happens if somebody breaches that border? Israel nukes its neighbors. Is that a good result?

But here's the part people miss. Those same pre-1967 borders don't solve the problems you describe. The resulting Palestinian state has no hope and no way to get out. Gaza is absolutely uninhabitable. Has been for millennia. How is the West Bank Palestinian state better? How does it import or export anything? It has no access to the outside world. What is life like there in isolation? How do Palestinians go back and forth between West Bank and Gaza?

The Palestinian leaders understand this. Their only chance at survival is to kill the Jews. All of them. Bibi understands this.

Any criticism of either side ignores the realities they understand and face. We criticize both side for not taking certain options. But they are not taking those options because those options don't really exist.

OK, so Bibi should stop the settlements. Where does he put the people? He doesn't have anywhere else.

(03-25-2015 11:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 10:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And you've based this on what? Have you been to Israel? Have you been to Ramallah? Have you been to Mea Sharim? How about Ariel?
Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties. Due process, rule of law, and civil rights? You'll never see them.
Tel Aviv is great. Its a wonderful, pro-Western city that Israel loves to show visitors. Haifa is good too. But that's not Bibi's Israel. Tel Aviv is Herzog territory. If Tel Aviv were the reality for Israel, few would have problems with them. But its not. And most Israelis cannot afford to live there. And most Isreali Arabs cannot move there. And Arabs who were born in the camps cannot ever go there. Tel Aviv is a facade. I love Tel Aviv. But its not the reality of Israel.
By the way, please tell me about your sources and how you formed your opinion. Here's a hint. The issue of settlements isn't applicable to Hamas (Gaza). There are no settlements there.
Its complicated. There are good and bad guys on both sides.

But here's the problem. What's your solution? Two states based on the pre-1967 borders?

That leaves Israel unable to defend its borders. You've been there. What's the elevation change climbing out from the Jordan to the West Bank? What's the elevation change at the pre-1967 borders? Which is easier to defend? Now how far is it from the pre-1967 borders to the Med? 10 miles, give or take, for about a 40 mile length of border? How do you defend that from an invading enemy? So what happens if somebody breaches that border? Israel nukes its neighbors. Is that a good result?

But here's the part people miss. Those same pre-1967 borders don't solve the problems you describe. The resulting Palestinian state has no hope and no way to get out. Gaza is absolutely uninhabitable. Has been for millennia. How is the West Bank Palestinian state better? How does it import or export anything? It has no access to the outside world. What is life like there in isolation? How do Palestinians go back and forth between West Bank and Gaza?

The Palestinian leaders understand this. Their only chance at survival is to kill the Jews. All of them. Bibi understands this.

Any criticism of either side ignores the realities they understand and face. We criticize both side for not taking certain options. But they are not taking those options because those options don't really exist.

OK, so Bibi should stop the settlements. Where does he put the people? He doesn't have anywhere else.

There's plenty of green space in pre-1967 Israel. Ignore Gaza for the time being (you can't deal with them). Jordan could provide a border for a PA state.

The real issue is that the crazies want to colonize the West Bank. And that's Bibi's coalition. And the theft of Arab homes in East J'lem should end.

(03-25-2015 11:50 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  There's plenty of green space in pre-1967 Israel.

No, there really isn't. There's land with water, which is in use for agriculture. Settle them there and you run out of food. Settle them elsewhere and they don't have water.

Quote:Ignore Gaza for the time being (you can't deal with them).

Agreed. West Bank as part of a Palestinian state has every chance to be equally bad.

Quote:Jordan could provide a border for a PA state.

Could, but won't. I'm assuming you mean a border with entry and exit points. Jordan doesn't want the Palestinians any more than Israel does.

Quote:The real issue is that the crazies want to colonize the West Bank. And that's Bibi's coalition. And the theft of Arab homes in East J'lem should end.

Where do you put them instead?

And you didn't address the defense issues. How does Israel defend itself, other than nuking its neighbors at the first sign of trouble? Is that acceptable?

And how does the Palestinian state survive?

It's easy to criticize Bibi and the Palestinians until you start looking at the options they have available. Walk a mile in their shoes.

(03-25-2015 11:14 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:02 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 10:53 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Here's a tip. If you actually have a passport. Use it. Fly to Israel. If you walk from the J'lem/Bethlehem checkpoint to the Church of the Nativity you'll pass through one of the camps. The Arabs cannot leave it. Neither can their kids. Nor their kids' kids. Its not a nice picture. By the way, just to be born in the West Bank means..its virtually impossible to leave. And if you leave, you'll have even more difficulty returning. You can never hold a high paying job. You can never have a decent education. You have no life. You can't even build a home and have to live in a temporary tentlike shack for the rest of your life. Unless you break the law and build a house. But its basically illegal for a Palestinian to build anything in Israel. And have no prospects for anything different. Not because of anything you did. But because of who you were born to. You can't even travel to other camps without huge difficulties.

Preaching to the choir.

Everyone already understands and agrees the conditions for a poor Palestinians are horrible and they are trapped in the middle of an awful holy war. But this is what happens when the majority of your "governments" refuse to accept Israel's existence as a nation and continuously call for their total annihilation. The problem is too many of the Palestinian people have been supporting terror for decades and continue to supporter terrorism to this day.

To say the Hammas is embedded in the Palestinian people is like saying heat is embedded in a raging inferno. Or stink is embedded in a fresh pile of chit.

Ok. How about if the Palestinians in the West Bank simply announce. 'We recognize the state of Israel and demand the vote in a one person one vote proportional representation scenario' where only residents of Israel can vote. Israel would then have the following demographic makeup. 58% Jewish, 38% Arab, 4% Other. With a rapidly growing Arab population. And that doesn't include Gaza.

Hamas isn't the West Bank.

They can announce whatever they want.

Until they root out the terrorists, fanatical hate groups and learn to show that can accept and live peacefully with Jews, no one is going to believe it. And no one should.

Its just common sense, which is why is doesn't happen.

(03-25-2015 11:14 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Ok. How about if the Palestinians in the West Bank simply announce. 'We recognize the state of Israel and demand the vote in a one person one vote proportional representation scenario' where only residents of Israel can vote. Israel would then have the following demographic makeup. 58% Jewish, 38% Arab, 4% Other. With a rapidly growing Arab population. And that doesn't include Gaza.

But they're not going to do that. So it's a useless and meaningless hypothetical.

(03-25-2015 11:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But here's the problem. What's your solution? Two states based on the pre-1967 borders?

That leaves Israel unable to defend its borders. You've been there. What's the elevation change climbing out from the Jordan to the West Bank? What's the elevation change at the pre-1967 borders? Which is easier to defend? Now how far is it from the pre-1967 borders to the Med? 10 miles, give or take, for about a 40 mile length of border? How do you defend that from an invading enemy? So what happens if somebody breaches that border? Israel nukes its neighbors. Is that a good result?

But here's the part people miss. Those same pre-1967 borders don't solve the problems you describe. The resulting Palestinian state has no hope and no way to get out. Gaza is absolutely uninhabitable. Has been for millennia. How is the West Bank Palestinian state better? How does it import or export anything? It has no access to the outside world. What is life like there in isolation? How do Palestinians go back and forth between West Bank and Gaza?

The Palestinian leaders understand this. Their only chance at survival is to kill the Jews. All of them. Bibi understands this.

Any criticism of either side ignores the realities they understand and face. We criticize both side for not taking certain options. But they are not taking those options because those options don't really exist.

OK, so Bibi should stop the settlements. Where does he put the people? He doesn't have anywhere else.

I believe in 2015 we absolutely have the technology to make some of the wasteland in the area much more inhabitable and even thriving with some investment and work.

There is a lot of desolate land sound of the holy land that could also be converted into much more livable conditions. But no one is willing to step up and do such a thing, no one is willing to invest the $$$ it would take.

And the last thing the leaders of Palestine are interested is build a new society south of the holy land and living in peace with the Jews as neighbors.

(03-26-2015 12:06 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I believe in 2015 we absolutely have the technology to make some of the wasteland in the area much more inhabitable and even thriving with some investment and work.

The real problem from Israel's standpoint is that the pre-1967 borders are indefensible. They were back then, still are. What's changed is that Israel now has a sizable nuclear arsenal. Would they use nukes if their borders were reached? That's their plan.

Quote:There is a lot of desolate land sound of the holy land that could also be converted into much more livable conditions. But no one is willing to step up and do such a thing, no one is willing to invest the $$$ it would take.
And the last thing the leaders of Palestine are interested is build a new society south of the holy land and living in peace with the Jews as neighbors.

But this is the only peaceful solution possible. Until this is on the table, it's really difficult to question anyone's decisions. Walk a mile in their shoes before criticizing.

(03-26-2015 12:14 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But this is the only peaceful solution possible. Until this is on the table, it's really difficult to question anyone's decisions. Walk a mile in their shoes before criticizing.

I think that is an incredibility dangerous attitude when take to the extreme. We have certain facts and we should be willing to have a discussion about them.

I never lived in Nazi Germany, but I have no problems criticizing certain aspects of the regime. Its not required in all cases. If we are not willing to criticize their open policy of not accepting the existence of a Jewish state then we are not being honest about the situation. That is foolishness imo.

(03-26-2015 12:37 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I think that is an incredibility dangerous attitude when take to the extreme.
We have certain facts and we should be willing to have a discussion about them.
I never lived in Nazi Germany, but I have no problems criticizing certain aspects of the regime. Its not required in all cases.

I'm not saying it's required in all cases, but in this particular one. And that's not taking anything to the extreme.

(03-26-2015 12:41 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 12:37 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I think that is an incredibility dangerous attitude when take to the extreme.
We have certain facts and we should be willing to have a discussion about them.
I never lived in Nazi Germany, but I have no problems criticizing certain aspects of the regime. Its not required in all cases.

I'm not saying it's required in all cases, but in this particular one. And that's not taking anything to the extreme.

If we are ignoring the religious and cultural aspects of Palestine and their open refusal to accept the existence of Israel, then I believe we are doing just that.

(03-26-2015 12:44 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If we are ignoring the religious and cultural aspects of Palestine and their open refusal to accept the existence of Israel, then I believe we are doing just that.

Then I guess we agree that we aren't doing that.

(03-26-2015 12:47 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 12:44 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If we are ignoring the religious and cultural aspects of Palestine and their open refusal to accept the existence of Israel, then I believe we are doing just that.

Then I guess we agree that we aren't doing that.

sounds good

But remember that many are.

I don't know why everyone talks about a two state solution. The Palestinians do NOT want that. They just want Israel eradicated.

I like the idea of giving them Sinai and telling them to STFU.

(03-26-2015 09:10 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I don't know why everyone talks about a two state solution. The Palestinians do NOT want that. They just want Israel eradicated.

I like the idea of giving them Sinai and telling them to STFU.

The Sinai is Egyptian.

(03-26-2015 11:07 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 09:10 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I don't know why everyone talks about a two state solution. The Palestinians do NOT want that. They just want Israel eradicated.

I like the idea of giving them Sinai and telling them to STFU.

The Sinai is Egyptian.

That's correct.

It's also the only option.

That's going to cost money. We're going to have to make it a good deal for Egypt.

But there really are no other options.