Speaking of timing, I think where Joe Paterno became damned in the national public eye - and the part that nobody with a soul can get past but the Penn State zealots can't seem to acknowledge - was the legendary old coach's incredibly callous reaction to the information relayed to him by Mike McQueary.

Whether McQueary actually saw a child rape in progress is irrelevant. The fact that Paterno was told that one of his assistant coaches thought he had seen a little boy being sexually assaulted inside their own locker room absolutely should have spurred immediate action.

It did not.

Instead, according to Paterno himself, he waited a full 48 hours to notify anyone because he "didn't want to ruin anyone's weekend."

That is an unconscionable degree of callousness and absolutely destroys his legacy and was worthy of his immediate dismissal.

Whether or not the NCAA had purview to punish Penn State is far less important to me - and I suspect most others - than the insane reaction of the Penn State administrators in the face of such awful revelations.

At that point you stop getting the benefit of the doubt in the discussion regardless of how many wins you have compiled. Well, that is true everywhere but inside a small Pennsylvania bubble.

(02-13-2015 09:50 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Speaking of timing, I think where Joe Paterno became damned in the national public eye - and the part that nobody with a soul can get past but the Penn State zealots can't seem to acknowledge - was the legendary old coach's incredibly callous reaction to the information relayed to him by Mike McQueary.

Whether McQueary actually saw a child rape in progress is irrelevant. The fact that Paterno was told that one of his assistant coaches thought he had seen a little boy being sexually assaulted inside their own locker room absolutely should have spurred immediate action.

It did not.

Instead, according to Paterno himself, he waited a full 48 hours to notify anyone because he "didn't want to ruin anyone's weekend."

That is an unconscionable degree of callousness and absolutely destroys his legacy and was worthy of his immediate dismissal.

Whether or not the NCAA had purview to punish Penn State is far less important to me - and I suspect most others - than the insane reaction of the Penn State administrators in the face of such awful revelations.

At that point you stop getting the benefit of the doubt in the discussion regardless of how many wins you have compiled. Well, that is true everywhere but inside a small Pennsylvania bubble.

I got the impression that McQuery was pretty vague about what he saw. Granted, I never read the testimony. But if someone came to me with some vague "I'm not sure what I saw" crap, I don't think I'd treat it very seriously either.

Either way, I think McQuery is a disgusting human being. If you see a kid getting raped, you don't go to the head football coach and then let it go. You go to the police (although I could understand telling JoePa first to let him know that the media will be calling). If the local cops don't do anything, go to the sheriff, the prosecutor, the state cops, or the FBI. I don't care how young or powerless you are or how powerful the head coach is, if you're the witness to this kind of torture you have a personal responsibility to ensure that it gets prosecuted.

(02-13-2015 09:50 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Speaking of timing, I think where Joe Paterno became damned in the national public eye - and the part that nobody with a soul can get past but the Penn State zealots can't seem to acknowledge - was the legendary old coach's incredibly callous reaction to the information relayed to him by Mike McQueary.

Whether McQueary actually saw a child rape in progress is irrelevant. The fact that Paterno was told that one of his assistant coaches thought he had seen a little boy being sexually assaulted inside their own locker room absolutely should have spurred immediate action.

It did not.

Instead, according to Paterno himself, he waited a full 48 hours to notify anyone because he "didn't want to ruin anyone's weekend."

That is an unconscionable degree of callousness and absolutely destroys his legacy and was worthy of his immediate dismissal.

Whether or not the NCAA had purview to punish Penn State is far less important to me - and I suspect most others - than the insane reaction of the Penn State administrators in the face of such awful revelations.

At that point you stop getting the benefit of the doubt in the discussion regardless of how many wins you have compiled. Well, that is true everywhere but inside a small Pennsylvania bubble.

FWIW --- the Freeh Report itself has a "disconnect" on this topic.

The Freeh Report uses the "didn't want to interfere with their weekend" phraseology a few times.

However, the Freeh Report also notes that Paterno DID meet with Curley & Schultz on the morning of Sunday, February 11 (McQueary told Paterno on the 10th).

I'm not saying this "disconnect" discredits the Freeh report as a whole, but instances like Page 23 of the Freeh Report literally make no sense when it says "Paterno reports the incident to Curley and Schultz on Sunday, February 11 as Paterno did not want to interfere with their weekends."

Larger point: I think criticism toward Joe "for not interfering with their weekends" is a bit unfair.

I wasn't using the Freeh Report. I don't care about the Freeh Report. I also don't care about Mark Emmert or the NCAA. If you want to attack Louis Freeh or Mark Emmert or question/condemn the NCAA's actions with regard to Penn State, have at it. I will probably agree with most of it.

However, I was using Joe Paterno's own grand jury testimony. I can post the entire conversation if you'd like? It is very damning and for me at least, it ends any discussion about whether or not JoePa "may have acted immorally." He absolutely acted immorally and callously. He probably did not break the law but I suspect that too was by design. I suspect that he spent the rest of the weekend meeting with his attorneys about what he could do that would legally cover him were this information ever to become public.

I just think he's a piece of shitt human being and I don't feel bad for him at all. Now, I don't know that the NCAA had the legal authority to do what it did but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Paterno and the way he was treated because he clearly had no sympathy for those children and the way they were treated.

(02-12-2015 03:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:41 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:34 PM)lance99 Wrote:  I want Emmert gone, but for different reasons than this.

I'm with you there. I've wanted him gone for about a decade now.

And his replacement is already standing in the wings.

Do you mean this literally? Emmert didn't even have a role at the NCAA until mid-2010.

I still remember his time at LSU, and the controversy he left in his wake. It's an ongoing pattern for Emmert.

(02-13-2015 12:56 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I wasn't using the Freeh Report. I don't care about the Freeh Report. I also don't care about Mark Emmert or the NCAA. If you want to attack Louis Freeh or Mark Emmert or question/condemn the NCAA's actions with regard to Penn State, have at it. I will probably agree with most of it.

However, I was using Joe Paterno's own grand jury testimony. I can post the entire conversation if you'd like? It is very damning and for me at least, it ends any discussion about whether or not JoePa "may have acted immorally." He absolutely acted immorally and callously. He probably did not break the law but I suspect that too was by design. I suspect that he spent the rest of the weekend meeting with his attorneys about what he could do that would legally cover him were this information ever to become public.

I just think he's a piece of shitt human being and I don't feel bad for him at all. Now, I don't know that the NCAA had the legal authority to do what it did but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Paterno and the way he was treated because he clearly had no sympathy for those children and the way they were treated.

No need to quote it --- because, as I am sure you know, Joe Paterno himself even says word-for-word "Well, I can't be precise" right before he uses the now infamous "didn't want to interfere with their weekends" phrase.

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion on Paterno --- but I think that using Joe's "interfere with their weekends" phrase to support your "I just think he's a piece of ***** human being" viewpoint is a rather weak plank in your argument.

I'm not saying you don't have other, stronger reasons for your viewpoint, but I do believe that particular reason isn't strong, considering (1) it's demonstratively untrue, and (2) you deliberately leave out the qualifier Joe himself used.

(02-13-2015 01:41 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:41 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:34 PM)lance99 Wrote:  I want Emmert gone, but for different reasons than this.

I'm with you there. I've wanted him gone for about a decade now.

And his replacement is already standing in the wings.

Do you mean this literally? Emmert didn't even have a role at the NCAA until mid-2010.

I still remember his time at LSU, and the controversy he left in his wake. It's an ongoing pattern for Emmert.

Gotcha ... didn't know you had some sort of connection to LSU (or Washington). I had never heard of Emmert prior to his arrival in Indianapolis.

(02-13-2015 01:54 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 01:41 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:01 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:41 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 02:34 PM)lance99 Wrote:  I want Emmert gone, but for different reasons than this.

I'm with you there. I've wanted him gone for about a decade now.

And his replacement is already standing in the wings.

Do you mean this literally? Emmert didn't even have a role at the NCAA until mid-2010.

I still remember his time at LSU, and the controversy he left in his wake. It's an ongoing pattern for Emmert.

Gotcha ... didn't know you had some sort of connection to LSU (or Washington). I had never heard of Emmert prior to his arrival in Indianapolis.

I used to live in Baton Rouge. So I followed LSU to a certain degree.

(02-13-2015 12:56 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I wasn't using the Freeh Report. I don't care about the Freeh Report. I also don't care about Mark Emmert or the NCAA. If you want to attack Louis Freeh or Mark Emmert or question/condemn the NCAA's actions with regard to Penn State, have at it. I will probably agree with most of it.

However, I was using Joe Paterno's own grand jury testimony. I can post the entire conversation if you'd like? It is very damning and for me at least, it ends any discussion about whether or not JoePa "may have acted immorally." He absolutely acted immorally and callously. He probably did not break the law but I suspect that too was by design. I suspect that he spent the rest of the weekend meeting with his attorneys about what he could do that would legally cover him were this information ever to become public.

I just think he's a piece of shitt human being and I don't feel bad for him at all. Now, I don't know that the NCAA had the legal authority to do what it did but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Paterno and the way he was treated because he clearly had no sympathy for those children and the way they were treated.

Agreed.

(02-13-2015 04:34 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 12:56 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I wasn't using the Freeh Report. I don't care about the Freeh Report. I also don't care about Mark Emmert or the NCAA. If you want to attack Louis Freeh or Mark Emmert or question/condemn the NCAA's actions with regard to Penn State, have at it. I will probably agree with most of it.

However, I was using Joe Paterno's own grand jury testimony. I can post the entire conversation if you'd like? It is very damning and for me at least, it ends any discussion about whether or not JoePa "may have acted immorally." He absolutely acted immorally and callously. He probably did not break the law but I suspect that too was by design. I suspect that he spent the rest of the weekend meeting with his attorneys about what he could do that would legally cover him were this information ever to become public.

I just think he's a piece of shitt human being and I don't feel bad for him at all. Now, I don't know that the NCAA had the legal authority to do what it did but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Paterno and the way he was treated because he clearly had no sympathy for those children and the way they were treated.

Agreed.

So is it safe to assume the two of you are opposed to any type of monument to the aforementioned man?

(02-13-2015 01:48 PM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 12:56 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I wasn't using the Freeh Report. I don't care about the Freeh Report. I also don't care about Mark Emmert or the NCAA. If you want to attack Louis Freeh or Mark Emmert or question/condemn the NCAA's actions with regard to Penn State, have at it. I will probably agree with most of it.

However, I was using Joe Paterno's own grand jury testimony. I can post the entire conversation if you'd like? It is very damning and for me at least, it ends any discussion about whether or not JoePa "may have acted immorally." He absolutely acted immorally and callously. He probably did not break the law but I suspect that too was by design. I suspect that he spent the rest of the weekend meeting with his attorneys about what he could do that would legally cover him were this information ever to become public.

I just think he's a piece of shitt human being and I don't feel bad for him at all. Now, I don't know that the NCAA had the legal authority to do what it did but I have no sympathy whatsoever for Paterno and the way he was treated because he clearly had no sympathy for those children and the way they were treated.

No need to quote it --- because, as I am sure you know, Joe Paterno himself even says word-for-word "Well, I can't be precise" right before he uses the now infamous "didn't want to interfere with their weekends" phrase.

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion on Paterno --- but I think that using Joe's "interfere with their weekends" phrase to support your "I just think he's a piece of ***** human being" viewpoint is a rather weak plank in your argument.

I'm not saying you don't have other, stronger reasons for your viewpoint, but I do believe that particular reason isn't strong, considering (1) it's demonstratively untrue, and (2) you deliberately leave out the qualifier Joe himself used.

Oh no, you are right. That blows my position out of the water and changes everything. Clearly he is being hosed. He qualified as callousness. He still didn't do anything for 10 years but he did qualify as callousness. That is a total game changer.

(02-12-2015 04:30 PM)USFRamenu Wrote:  So wait a minute?

You mean to tell me that;

1, Jerry Sandusky did not molest any children within the confines of the property known as the university of Pennsylvania, AKA Penn State.

2, Jerry Sandusky was not seen to have been committing a sexual act on a child in the showers of one of the athletic departments buildings on Penn State.

3, Joe Paterno wasn't informed of a possible sexual act being committed by Jerry Sandusky on a child in one of the athletic buildings of Penn State.

4, Joe Paterno didn't fail to report this act as any other normal responsible human being would have.

5, Those in charge at Penn State didn't continue to provide access to the athletic buildings on Penn State to Jerry Sandusky even though he was forced to retire under suspicion of committing crimes against children.

Shocked, I'm simply shocked. They're right, Emmert must go.

Keep your blinders on. Remember there are more Lemmings in the world then there are Foxes to hunt them. Just steer clear of cliffs and chances are good that you'll be fine.

this is all about trying to make it look like penn state and creepy old paterno did nothing wrong. they can fire 1000 emmerts and disband the ncaa. nothing will change the fact that people are gonna be disgusted every time they hear the words paterno and penn state for at least 2 generations

word association
dog - cat
fur - coat
heart - love
penn state - pedophile

Here is the testimony. Decide for yourselves who is playing games here and who is not.

: Without getting into any graphic detail, what did Mr. McQueary tell you he had seen and where?
Mr. Paterno: Well, he had seen a person, an older - not an older, but a mature person who was fondling, whatever you might call it - I'm not sure what the term would be - a young boy.

Q: Did he identify who that older person was?

Mr. Paterno: Yes, a man by the name of Jerry Sandusky who had been one of our coaches, was not at the time.

Q: You're saying that at the time this incident was reported to you, Sandusky was no longer a coach? Mr. Paterno: No, he had retired voluntarily. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I think it was either '98 or '99.

Q: I think you used the term fondling. Is that the term that you used?

Mr. Paterno: Well, I don't know what you would call it. Obviously, he was doing something with the youngster.

It was a sexual nature. I'm not sure exactly what it was.

I didn't push Mike to describe exactly what it was because he was very upset. Obviously, I was in a little bit of a dilemma since Mr. Sandusky was not working for me anymore.

So I told - I didn't go any further than that except I knew Mike was upset and I knew some kind of inappropriate action was being taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster.

Q: Did Mike McQueary tell you where he had seen this inappropriate conduct take place?

Mr. Paterno: In the shower.

Q: Where was the shower?

Mr. Paterno: In the Lasch Building.

Q: Is that on the campus of Penn State University?

Mr. Paterno: It's right on the campus.

Q: Did you tell Mike McQueary at that time what you were going to do with that information that he had provided to you?

Mr. Paterno: I don't know whether I was specific or not. I did tell Mike, Mike, you did what was right; you told me.

Even though Jerry does not work for the football staff any longer, I would refer his concerns to the right people.

Q: You recall this taking place on a Saturday morning, the conversation with Mike?

Mr. Paterno: Yes.

Q: When did you - did you do something with that information?

Mr. Paterno: Well, I can't be precise.

I ordinarily would have called people right away, but it was a Saturday morning and I didn't want to interfere with their weekends.

---
I'm sorry but that is a flat out sickening disregard for the actual victims here by Paterno and his lackeys.

What happened at Penn State was 1,000 worse than what happened at SMU in the 1980's. PSU was lucky to avoid the death penalty.

But it's all over now. I hope everyone can leave this alone.

Leave it alone?!

These imbeciles are demanding that a statue be resurrected next to the stadium of a man who CLEARLY turned a blind eye to an assistant coach/serial child predator feasting on scores of innocent children.

There is never going to be any leaving that alone. That IS Paterno's legacy and that will be true if they put 35 statues up of the man all over backwards-ass Central Pennsylvania.

(02-14-2015 07:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Leave it alone?!

These imbeciles are demanding that a statue be resurrected next to the stadium of a man who CLEARLY turned a blind eye to an assistant coach/serial child predator feasting on scores of innocent children.

There is never going to be any leaving that alone. That IS Paterno's legacy and that will be true if they put 35 statues up of the man all over backwards-ass Central Pennsylvania.

What I mean is: the statue is not up right now; leave it in a warehouse. The family (or whoever) needs to let this go.

(02-14-2015 07:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Leave it alone?!

These imbeciles are demanding that a statue be resurrected next to the stadium of a man who CLEARLY turned a blind eye to an assistant coach/serial child predator feasting on scores of innocent children.

There is never going to be any leaving that alone. That IS Paterno's legacy and that will be true if they put 35 statues up of the man all over backwards-ass Central Pennsylvania.

I hail from the so-called "backwards ass Central Pennsylvania" and I can assure you that not everyone in that region are mud-sucking cavemen/JoePa lovers but continue to smear with wide brushstrokes over a whole region if it suits you.

Well, if you are from "backwards ass Central Pennsylvania" then you know that I speak the truth about the mentality there.

Maybe not everyone licks JoePa's boots but a hell of a lot of you do. In fact, a frightening percentage of you lick his boots and treat the man like an infallible deity. That is dangerous and backwards. I also think that "Joe Pa is God" mentality is precisely what created the environment that allowed these tragedies (plural) to happen in the first place. I think Jerry Sandusky took advantage of that trust implicitly and ask no questions culture to suit his needs and so to did Penn State's senior level leadership – including Paterno.

If Paterno - and by extension the program and everyone associated with it - were treated like you would normal human beings, instead of paragons of virtue who were above reproach, perhaps some of these tragedies (plural) could have been averted. In that way, I think the Penn State scandal is very much like the Catholic Church scandal. Too much trust in any single institution can be very dangerous.

Maybe Mark Emmert and the NCAA wronged Penn State/Paterno? Maybe Louis Freeh and the Penn State Board of Trustees wronged Penn State/Paterno? Honestly, all of those things are possible.

However, when the denizens of State College mass rioted, flipping over news trucks and jumping on cars in the process, nobody had any idea whether or not Paterno had been railroaded by the NCAA or the BOT. All they knew is that their great and all knowing leader had been deposed and they were not going to take it lying down. That is backwards and frightening.

Also backwards and frightening where the scenes coming out of ESPN in the ensuing days where grown men were kneeling down and praying in front of the Paterno home as if he were a religious figure.

Backwards and frightening.

And in the subsequent time there's been some very selective reasoning going on here. For example, when the athletic director and university president come to your home to fire you/force your retirement, and you kick them out of your home and you are still employed, they are no longer your bosses in any meaningful way. They may hold positions that would make them appear to be your bosses on an org chart but they are definitely not your superiors.

Had Paterno explicitly told any of them, including Penn state president Graham Spanier, that he wanted them to look deeper into the Sandusky matter and find out why the police had not acted and why Sandusky was continuing to bring young boys on Penn State's bowl trips years after the fact, it would've happened in an afternoon because those peoples' jobs (including Spanier's) would have depended on it.

I mean let's get real here. Nobody rioted because Tim Curly or Graham Spanier was fired. Nobody was apoplectic because Gary Schultz had lost his job. They rioted in the streets and have flooded every public opinion poll they can over one person – the most powerful person in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the most powerful people in the history of college athletics: Joe Paterno.

How do you think he was able to throw out of his house the athletic director and university president? Because he held all the cards. He was that university's face and it's conscience and arguably the greatest fundraiser in the history of American universities. You don't think he knew that? You don't think everyone knew that?

That is a very well-known story about Paterno in the early 2000's and nobody at Penn State has ever denied it...until it became necessary for them to do so to try to push the ridiculous narrative of, "What on earth could the most powerful human being in the state of Pennsylvania do to stop a serial pedophile who had an office three doors down from his? Clearly, his hands were tied and if he acted in a more humane way towards the children, he would have become an instant fugitive."

Backwards and frightening. In other words, very much cult like. There is just no other reasonable way to characterize the prevailing mentality there.

(02-14-2015 10:34 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Well, if you are from "backwards ass Central Pennsylvania" then you know that I speak the truth about the mentality there.

I'm from Central PA...and it is flat out disgusting there. Worse than you indicate. The vast, vast majority of people cling to worshiping that heinous, disgusting, dead fraud. Their lives are consumed by it. Revolting every time I visit family...which actually is right now, having just left a restaurant with a mini-Paterno shrine installed. Pathetic, sick f*(cks.

(02-12-2015 06:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 05:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 04:59 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Or that there wasn't a concerted institutional coverup that has resulted in charges against the university president, athletic director, and a senior vice chancellor? My lord. It's the most stunning and tragic example of a lack of institutional control in the history of sports. Flat out sickening.

- Replace Paterno with a director of a major academic dept. at the university (Chemistry, for example)

- Replace Sandusky with a tenured Professor in that department

- Replace the assistant coach with an assistant Professor in that department

- (if there were any other athletic dept. personal involved, then replace them with their academic equivalents)

- Replace "football locker room shower" with "chemistry research lab"


You get exactly the same crime happening at exactly the same school.

Except in one case there isn't a single person who would question that the NCAA has nothing to do with the crimes, while in the other case, just because it was "football coaches" involved, people want to somehow magically give the NCAA this all-powerful sledgehammer to smash the entire university to rubble.


It's the very definition of asinine.

Once again, your logic is deeply flawed. The crimes in and of themselves are irrelevant to the NCAA. The fact that PSU's atheltic department tolerated an inarguably unsafe environment in the name of propogating an atheltic program is what necessitates NCAA action. Stopping such activity is literally *the* reason why the NCAA exists.

That NCAA mandate is the key difference between a chemistry scandal and an athletic scandal. In fact, using your logic, paying above tuition scholarships shouldn't be a NCAA offense, even before the new NCAA rules were adopted, as I know academic departments regularily offer scholarship money in excess of tuition.

Unless you're able to show that the motivation was not atheltic in nature, you are fighting an impossibel battle. So far, the only arguments that I've heard trying to propogate that belief hinge on every senior PSU administrator being irrational and emotionally fragile. Though that's possible, the odds of that are phenominally low.

Regarding your last paragraph, you overestimate human nature. Lots of people fail in these types of situations. In fact, most people talk a FAR better game than they play as studies have repeatedly shown. There are lots of motivations for their non-action that have nothing to do with the football program.