The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

Ad...I think you are stuck on a point which may very well be irrelevant.

IF the recent reporting is true and that the FBs were only slightly off from the minimum required psi inflation, then, in the absence of any guilty party being identified, it would seem likely that the FBs naturally lost psi due to being in the cold for an extended period of time. So, if the officials signed off on the FBs being initially set at the minimum 12.5 psi, then, by halftime, they were very likely below that threshold. Not by a lot, the referees handling the FBs didn't seem to notice, but below the 12.5 psi nevertheless.
IF this was the scenario, there is nothing illegal about it. This probably has happened in every cold weather FB game, at all levels, since forever - only THIS time the actual measurements were taken to document it. The rules only require that the officials weigh the FBs and sign off on them prior to the game. There is no requirement that the team's regularly check the psi's during the game. Yes, a team cannot themselves physically adjust the FBs, but they are are not required to account for what may happen naturally.

Now, if the NFL wants to implement a rule requiring officials to check the measurements of the FBs during the game and make adjustments to the psi as necessary, then fine (although, IMO, that will negatively affect the flow of the game). In the absence of such a rule, however, you cannot blame the Patriots for something that happens out of their control (again, assuming these latest reports are accurate).

This isn't rocket science. Why don't you get this?

The balls weren't even checked by the league (refs) before the game. PSI must not be a critical part of the game.

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

I guess you just aren't going to give up on this. If the NFL issues a kangaroo court type decision it will be to find them guilty of some minor infraction - not to exonerate them. They might do this to avoid forcing a lot of prominent people to make an apology to Tom Brady and Bill Belichik. As time passes, it becomes less and less clear that anyone did anything to intentionally provide Brady with non-conforming footballs. The game itself provides clear prima facie evidence that the Patriots gained no advantage even if they unintentionally used footballs that became ever so slightly out of spec by halftime.

It really doesn't matter anyway. There is nothing that will ever convince fans like yourself that the Patriots didn't cheat. Jesus himself could come down and swear on a stack of bibles that they didn't cheat, and you still wouldn't believe it. That's the nature of fandom.

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

You have to admit, the NFL investigation is a farce, but it's entertaining.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/earl...-football/

Quote:Another day, another weird turn in the DeflateGate saga. In Wednesday’s installment, an NFL employee has been reportedly fired for repeatedly taking and selling official NFL footballs, including one from the AFC championship game that spawned the long-running controversy.

Not only that, but this employee may have replaced the official football with an unauthorized version and handed that to the Patriots’ staffer who was in charge of the referees’ locker room. In Tuesday’s installment, that staffer, Jim McNally, then handed the unauthorized ball to another NFL official, who realized it was a fake and alerted the league’s vice president of game operations, who was in attendance and proceeded to inspect all of the game balls at halftime.

Adam Schefter told ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” on Wednesday that a league official who is designated to collect game-used footballs, so that they can be later sold to raise money for charity, has been fired for keeping some of them and selling them for personal profit.

(02-18-2015 11:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  It really doesn't matter anyway. There is nothing that will ever convince fans like me that the Patriots did cheat. Jesus himself could come down and swear on a stack of bibles that the Patriots cheated, and I still wouldn't believe it. That's the nature of rabid Patriots fandom.

Fixed it for you. ... it is just amazing when Patriots Fans, biased as they are to the Nth degree, claim anyone else is motivated by ... bias! It's hilarious.

As for the Colts game itself, let's not play dumb: Obviously, using the bogus balls didn't determine the outcome of a 45-7 game, but that's irrelevant on two counts. First, the issue is intent, not outcome. If I hide 2 aces up my sleeve before a poker game and use them only to win two small pots, I'm a cheater even if they only account for $100 of the $2,000 i won because as it turned out I get great hands all night and win most of the big pots anyway. Second, and equally obviously, it would be silly to think this is the first time it happened. The Patriots would have used the same deflated balls in other games, such as the Ravens playoff game, a game that was far closer and which the Patriots were the weaker team, outplayed in and lucky to win. In a game that close, little things could tip the scale.

(02-18-2015 08:44 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

(02-19-2015 01:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 08:44 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

(02-19-2015 12:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 11:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  It really doesn't matter anyway. There is nothing that will ever convince fans like me that the Patriots did cheat. Jesus himself could come down and swear on a stack of bibles that the Patriots cheated, and I still wouldn't believe it. That's the nature of rabid Patriots fandom.

Fixed it for you. ... it is just amazing when Patriots Fans, biased as they are to the Nth degree, claim anyone else is motivated by ... bias! It's hilarious.

As for the Colts game itself, let's not play dumb: Obviously, using the bogus balls didn't determine the outcome of a 45-7 game, but that's irrelevant on two counts. First, the issue is intent, not outcome. If I hide 2 aces up my sleeve before a poker game and use them only to win two small pots, I'm a cheater even if they only account for $100 of the $2,000 i won because as it turned out I get great hands all night and win most of the big pots anyway. Second, and equally obviously, it would be silly to think this is the first time it happened. The Patriots would have used the same deflated balls in other games, such as the Ravens playoff game, a game that was far closer and which the Patriots were the weaker team, outplayed in and lucky to win. In a game that close, little things could tip the scale.

Your first statement might mean something if I were a Patriots fan. I have never been a Patriots fan.

As for intent, the Patriots submitted for the officials approval balls that their quarterback was comfortable with. NFL procedures regarding footballs were designed specifically to ensure that the balls used in games were balls that each quarterback was comfortable with. They made this change in the past 10 years at the request of the league's quarterbacks, and to further their aim to make the game more exciting for the fans. So it would seem that the Patriots intent was to comply with both the letter and spirit of NFL rules.

Your beef seems to be not that the Patriots complied with the rules about getting their footballs approved by the officials, but rather that they then had the nerve to actually play with those approved footballs. The bastards. Only a cheater would do such a terrible thing. Or so you say.

The Pats didn't put aces up their sleeve. They just gave the dealer a deck with 52 cards. Same as the Colts did.

(02-19-2015 07:28 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 01:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 08:44 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 10:02 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  The investigation will conclude at some point. I just hope the NFL doesn't come up with some kangaroo court decision so they can save face.

I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

I've tried this analogy before, but maybe this time it will sink in:

Imagine that we are playing poker, and midway through the game, a couple of aces fall out of my sleeve. I look around the table, knowing everyone is about to jump my ass for being a cheater, so i quickly say "Wait a minute! Not fair of you to jump to conclusions, I'm innocent until proven guilty! We need to investigate this! After all, it's possible that somebody else put those aces up my sleeve while I wasn't looking! Or, there's a strong breeze in this room. Maybe the aces blew up my sleeve accidentally! So unless any of you can PROVE that I PURPOSEFULLY PUT THEM UP MY SLEEVE, well, then I'm innocent and not only do I get to keep all the money I've won tonight, anyone who says I am cheater owes me an apology!"

Now, how seriously is anyone around the table going to take that? If it's my lucky day, before jumping me they might, just might, stare at each other in utter astonishment that I could think they were so stupid, and that might give me the split-second I need to bolt the table and escape.

And for good reason: Since it is indisputable that I was caught in a cheating act, it is obviously MY burden to prove that what appears to be the obvious truth - that I cheated -isn't true. Unless I can show that someone else did indeed slip those aces up my sleeve, then the clear and fair conclusion is that I should be regarded as cheating.

Since the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus balls, the only rational purpose of an NFL investigation would be to show HOW they cheated, not IF, because they were in fact and indisputably caught in a cheating act - using bogus footballs. So the burden is entirely on the Patriots to prove that what appears to be obvious isn't in fact so. It isn't on anyone else to demonstrate the mechanics of how they cheated, any more than it would be the other poker player's obligation to prove exactly how I put those aces up my sleeve.

So it is utterly ridiculous for Patriots fans to keep whining about "we're innocent until proven guilty! We can't jump to conclusions! Gotta wait for the investigation to finish!". Maybe, just maybe, the investigation WILL conclude that what appears to be obvious - that the Patriots cheated - isn't in fact the case. Maybe the NFL will find that someone not affiliated with the Pats did set them up, somehow slipped the Patriots bogus balls or somesuch, and then yes, people who called them cheaters will have been proven wrong. But as of now, and unless the NFL investigation definitively proves they didn't cheat- remember, an "inconclusive evidence" finding does NOT exonerate the Patriots, any more than the other poker players being unable to specify exactly how/when I put aces up my sleeve would exonerate me, only proof-positive that they didn't cheat does- the Patriots are properly regarded as cheaters.

Hopefully, this time it sinks through the Patriot fan's head, but I am not hopeful. Those skulls tend to be thick.

(02-20-2015 08:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 07:28 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 01:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 08:44 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 09:13 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I expect a Kangaroo/face saving decision. That has been on the cards since the very start, when the NFL declared that it was investigating if the Patriots cheated with the footballs, when it was obvious that they did cheat, and that the only thing worth investigating was how they cheated.

It's just not in the interests of the league to have its champion besmirched. The first three Brady-Belicik super bowl wins are permanently tarred/asterisked in the minds of most (i.e., just about everyone who isn't a rabid Patriots fan) by Spygate, the NFL doesn't want this one to have a Deflategate asterisk next to it, so expect some mealy-mouthed decision about "inconclusive" evidence or whatnot, kind of like the law enforcement officials in Tallahassee all did with the Jameis Winston rape allegations.

PS -Perhaps we're starting to learn some of the mechanics about how the Patriots cheated with the footballs:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/1...es-reports

Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

I've tried this analogy before, but maybe this time it will sink in:

Imagine that we are playing poker, and midway through the game, a couple of aces fall out of my sleeve. I look around the table, knowing everyone is about to jump my ass for being a cheater, so i quickly say "Wait a minute! Not fair of you to jump to conclusions, I'm innocent until proven guilty! We need to investigate this! After all, it's possible that somebody else put those aces up my sleeve while I wasn't looking! Or, there's a strong breeze in this room. Maybe the aces blew up my sleeve accidentally! So unless any of you can PROVE that I PURPOSEFULLY PUT THEM UP MY SLEEVE, well, then I'm innocent and not only do I get to keep all the money I've won tonight, anyone who says I am cheater owes me an apology!"

Now, how seriously is anyone around the table going to take that? If it's my lucky day, before jumping me they might, just might, stare at each other in utter astonishment that I could think they were so stupid, and that might give me the split-second I need to bolt the table and escape.

And for good reason: Since it is indisputable that I was caught in a cheating act, it is obviously MY burden to prove that what appears to be the obvious truth - that I cheated -isn't true. Unless I can show that someone else did indeed slip those aces up my sleeve, then the clear and fair conclusion is that I should be regarded as cheating.

Since the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus balls, the only rational purpose of an NFL investigation would be to show HOW they cheated, not IF, because they were in fact and indisputably caught in a cheating act - using bogus footballs. So the burden is entirely on the Patriots to prove that what appears to be obvious isn't in fact so. It isn't on anyone else to demonstrate the mechanics of how they cheated, any more than it would be the other poker player's obligation to prove exactly how I put those aces up my sleeve.

So it is utterly ridiculous for Patriots fans to keep whining about "we're innocent until proven guilty! We can't jump to conclusions! Gotta wait for the investigation to finish!". Maybe, just maybe, the investigation WILL conclude that what appears to be obvious - that the Patriots cheated - isn't in fact the case. Maybe the NFL will find that someone not affiliated with the Pats did set them up, somehow slipped the Patriots bogus balls or somesuch, and then yes, people who called them cheaters will have been proven wrong. But as of now, and unless the NFL investigation definitively proves they didn't cheat- remember, an "inconclusive evidence" finding does NOT exonerate the Patriots, any more than the other poker players being unable to specify exactly how/when I put aces up my sleeve would exonerate me, only proof-positive that they didn't cheat does- the Patriots are properly regarded as cheaters.

Hopefully, this time it sinks through the Patriot fan's head, but I am not hopeful. Those skulls tend to be thick.

You seem to have trouble grasping the fact that the Patriots were "caught" using approved footballs, not "bogus" ones. Understandable, though. The skulls of Patriots haters tend to be thick.

(02-20-2015 10:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 08:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 07:28 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 01:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2015 08:44 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Are all of the 49er Super Bowls tarnished now that Jerry Rice (a key part of their success) admitted he used glue on his gloves? That's a direct violation of the rules.

FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

I've tried this analogy before, but maybe this time it will sink in:

Imagine that we are playing poker, and midway through the game, a couple of aces fall out of my sleeve. I look around the table, knowing everyone is about to jump my ass for being a cheater, so i quickly say "Wait a minute! Not fair of you to jump to conclusions, I'm innocent until proven guilty! We need to investigate this! After all, it's possible that somebody else put those aces up my sleeve while I wasn't looking! Or, there's a strong breeze in this room. Maybe the aces blew up my sleeve accidentally! So unless any of you can PROVE that I PURPOSEFULLY PUT THEM UP MY SLEEVE, well, then I'm innocent and not only do I get to keep all the money I've won tonight, anyone who says I am cheater owes me an apology!"

Now, how seriously is anyone around the table going to take that? If it's my lucky day, before jumping me they might, just might, stare at each other in utter astonishment that I could think they were so stupid, and that might give me the split-second I need to bolt the table and escape.

And for good reason: Since it is indisputable that I was caught in a cheating act, it is obviously MY burden to prove that what appears to be the obvious truth - that I cheated -isn't true. Unless I can show that someone else did indeed slip those aces up my sleeve, then the clear and fair conclusion is that I should be regarded as cheating.

Since the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus balls, the only rational purpose of an NFL investigation would be to show HOW they cheated, not IF, because they were in fact and indisputably caught in a cheating act - using bogus footballs. So the burden is entirely on the Patriots to prove that what appears to be obvious isn't in fact so. It isn't on anyone else to demonstrate the mechanics of how they cheated, any more than it would be the other poker player's obligation to prove exactly how I put those aces up my sleeve.

So it is utterly ridiculous for Patriots fans to keep whining about "we're innocent until proven guilty! We can't jump to conclusions! Gotta wait for the investigation to finish!". Maybe, just maybe, the investigation WILL conclude that what appears to be obvious - that the Patriots cheated - isn't in fact the case. Maybe the NFL will find that someone not affiliated with the Pats did set them up, somehow slipped the Patriots bogus balls or somesuch, and then yes, people who called them cheaters will have been proven wrong. But as of now, and unless the NFL investigation definitively proves they didn't cheat- remember, an "inconclusive evidence" finding does NOT exonerate the Patriots, any more than the other poker players being unable to specify exactly how/when I put aces up my sleeve would exonerate me, only proof-positive that they didn't cheat does- the Patriots are properly regarded as cheaters.

Hopefully, this time it sinks through the Patriot fan's head, but I am not hopeful. Those skulls tend to be thick.

You seem to have trouble grasping the fact that the Patriots were "caught" using approved footballs, not "bogus" ones. Understandable, though. The skulls of Patriots haters tend to be thick.

No, they were caught using bogus - under-inflated - footballs. When measured in the middle of the game, they were bogus.

You know this, of course, it's been known for more than a month now. But like any rabid Patriots fan-boy, you just... can't... bring.... yourself .. to admit the obvious.

(02-20-2015 03:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 10:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 08:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 07:28 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 01:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, I 'hate' the 80s/90s 49ers, but no, what Rice did doesn't rise nearly to that level. For starters, the 49ers won 2 of their 5 SBs without Rice. For another, one guy is an individual cheater not a team cheater.

The Patriots cheating was systemic and at the strategic level, illegal filming and now ball usage so as to gain an advantage all over the field, over the totality of the game. It was done by coaches so they could develop better strategies and tactics over the other teams. Very different animal, far more impactful than whether one guy had glue on his gloves.

That's why all these greats - Lewis, Rice, Montana, Aikman - very different players from different teams and different eras, have all said the Patriots cheated and deserve to be regarded as such.

You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

I've tried this analogy before, but maybe this time it will sink in:

Imagine that we are playing poker, and midway through the game, a couple of aces fall out of my sleeve. I look around the table, knowing everyone is about to jump my ass for being a cheater, so i quickly say "Wait a minute! Not fair of you to jump to conclusions, I'm innocent until proven guilty! We need to investigate this! After all, it's possible that somebody else put those aces up my sleeve while I wasn't looking! Or, there's a strong breeze in this room. Maybe the aces blew up my sleeve accidentally! So unless any of you can PROVE that I PURPOSEFULLY PUT THEM UP MY SLEEVE, well, then I'm innocent and not only do I get to keep all the money I've won tonight, anyone who says I am cheater owes me an apology!"

Now, how seriously is anyone around the table going to take that? If it's my lucky day, before jumping me they might, just might, stare at each other in utter astonishment that I could think they were so stupid, and that might give me the split-second I need to bolt the table and escape.

And for good reason: Since it is indisputable that I was caught in a cheating act, it is obviously MY burden to prove that what appears to be the obvious truth - that I cheated -isn't true. Unless I can show that someone else did indeed slip those aces up my sleeve, then the clear and fair conclusion is that I should be regarded as cheating.

Since the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus balls, the only rational purpose of an NFL investigation would be to show HOW they cheated, not IF, because they were in fact and indisputably caught in a cheating act - using bogus footballs. So the burden is entirely on the Patriots to prove that what appears to be obvious isn't in fact so. It isn't on anyone else to demonstrate the mechanics of how they cheated, any more than it would be the other poker player's obligation to prove exactly how I put those aces up my sleeve.

So it is utterly ridiculous for Patriots fans to keep whining about "we're innocent until proven guilty! We can't jump to conclusions! Gotta wait for the investigation to finish!". Maybe, just maybe, the investigation WILL conclude that what appears to be obvious - that the Patriots cheated - isn't in fact the case. Maybe the NFL will find that someone not affiliated with the Pats did set them up, somehow slipped the Patriots bogus balls or somesuch, and then yes, people who called them cheaters will have been proven wrong. But as of now, and unless the NFL investigation definitively proves they didn't cheat- remember, an "inconclusive evidence" finding does NOT exonerate the Patriots, any more than the other poker players being unable to specify exactly how/when I put aces up my sleeve would exonerate me, only proof-positive that they didn't cheat does- the Patriots are properly regarded as cheaters.

Hopefully, this time it sinks through the Patriot fan's head, but I am not hopeful. Those skulls tend to be thick.

You seem to have trouble grasping the fact that the Patriots were "caught" using approved footballs, not "bogus" ones. Understandable, though. The skulls of Patriots haters tend to be thick.

No, they were caught using bogus - under-inflated - footballs. When measured in the middle of the game, they were bogus.

You know this, of course, it's been known for more than a month now. But like any rabid Patriots fan-boy, you just... can't... bring.... yourself .. to admit the obvious.

I give up quo. I don't believe you are capable of grasping this simple concept. I thought you were smarter than this, but clearly I was wrong. As somebody who has no dog in this fight, someone who is not now nor ever has been a Patriots fan I have to conclude your anti Patriot bias is just too strong. The footballs were approved for play by the officials. If that is not a true statement, then the fault is with the officials, not the team. End of story. Goodbye.

(02-20-2015 05:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 03:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 10:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-20-2015 08:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2015 07:28 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  You claim Patriot fans are biased, but you're declaring them guilty before the investigation has concluded. In fact, you declared them guilty before the investigation began! You have no credibility on this issue.

I've tried this analogy before, but maybe this time it will sink in:

Imagine that we are playing poker, and midway through the game, a couple of aces fall out of my sleeve. I look around the table, knowing everyone is about to jump my ass for being a cheater, so i quickly say "Wait a minute! Not fair of you to jump to conclusions, I'm innocent until proven guilty! We need to investigate this! After all, it's possible that somebody else put those aces up my sleeve while I wasn't looking! Or, there's a strong breeze in this room. Maybe the aces blew up my sleeve accidentally! So unless any of you can PROVE that I PURPOSEFULLY PUT THEM UP MY SLEEVE, well, then I'm innocent and not only do I get to keep all the money I've won tonight, anyone who says I am cheater owes me an apology!"

Now, how seriously is anyone around the table going to take that? If it's my lucky day, before jumping me they might, just might, stare at each other in utter astonishment that I could think they were so stupid, and that might give me the split-second I need to bolt the table and escape.

And for good reason: Since it is indisputable that I was caught in a cheating act, it is obviously MY burden to prove that what appears to be the obvious truth - that I cheated -isn't true. Unless I can show that someone else did indeed slip those aces up my sleeve, then the clear and fair conclusion is that I should be regarded as cheating.

Since the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus balls, the only rational purpose of an NFL investigation would be to show HOW they cheated, not IF, because they were in fact and indisputably caught in a cheating act - using bogus footballs. So the burden is entirely on the Patriots to prove that what appears to be obvious isn't in fact so. It isn't on anyone else to demonstrate the mechanics of how they cheated, any more than it would be the other poker player's obligation to prove exactly how I put those aces up my sleeve.

So it is utterly ridiculous for Patriots fans to keep whining about "we're innocent until proven guilty! We can't jump to conclusions! Gotta wait for the investigation to finish!". Maybe, just maybe, the investigation WILL conclude that what appears to be obvious - that the Patriots cheated - isn't in fact the case. Maybe the NFL will find that someone not affiliated with the Pats did set them up, somehow slipped the Patriots bogus balls or somesuch, and then yes, people who called them cheaters will have been proven wrong. But as of now, and unless the NFL investigation definitively proves they didn't cheat- remember, an "inconclusive evidence" finding does NOT exonerate the Patriots, any more than the other poker players being unable to specify exactly how/when I put aces up my sleeve would exonerate me, only proof-positive that they didn't cheat does- the Patriots are properly regarded as cheaters.

Hopefully, this time it sinks through the Patriot fan's head, but I am not hopeful. Those skulls tend to be thick.

You seem to have trouble grasping the fact that the Patriots were "caught" using approved footballs, not "bogus" ones. Understandable, though. The skulls of Patriots haters tend to be thick.

No, they were caught using bogus - under-inflated - footballs. When measured in the middle of the game, they were bogus.

You know this, of course, it's been known for more than a month now. But like any rabid Patriots fan-boy, you just... can't... bring.... yourself .. to admit the obvious.

I give up quo. I don't believe you are capable of grasping this simple concept. I thought you were smarter than this, but clearly I was wrong. As somebody who has no dog in this fight, someone who is not now nor ever has been a Patriots fan I have to conclude your anti Patriot bias is just too strong. The footballs were approved for play by the officials. If that is not a true statement, then the fault is with the officials, not the team. End of story. Goodbye.

That's right - you lack the guts to admit the obvious, that you are wrong, so grab your ball and go home. Here's why you are wrong:

The footballs were approved for play more than two hours before kickoff. But, at halftime, in the middle of the game, they were found to be bogus, and had to be removed from the game.

I guess by your logic of what it means to be "approved", If I am playing a poker game, and an hour before the game my sleeves are inspected by a game official to make sure I haven't hidden anything up them, and they pass inspection, but then in the MIDDLE of the game, two aces fall out, well, we can't say i was caught with unapproved items up my sleeve because they passed inspection an hour before the game! UTTERLY absurd.

Thus, the Patriots were in fact caught using bogus, unapproved footballs.

Of course you know this, everyone does, but lack a typical rabid fanboy, you lack the guts to admit your fave team cheated.

You guys need to get a room.

The Wells Report is out:

http://www.king5.com/story/sports/nfl/pa.../22216585/

The texts between the equipment guys are pretty damning towards Brady. I don't know how any other conclusion can be reached that he knew what was going on and in fact orchestrating it.

As I posted in the other thread on this ....

This is the equivalent of a baseball pitcher scuffing a ball with a nail file. When caught, pitchers get suspended for two starts. Since they get 32 starts in a season, the suspension is 1/16 of their season.

So give Brady a one game suspension (1/16 of his season) and get over it.

So we all don't have to apologize now as you requested in the OP? :-)

You can bring some beer to my tailgate at the Rent in '16.