Virginia Tech had joined the ACC at the beginning? How might the history and character of the league changed?

THREAD DERAILMENT!

To me the better What If is what if the ACC went a different direction with their original expansion? At the time, they were making more money than the SEC team for team. They were #1 in the Sagarin. FSU, Clemson, UMD, NCST were good. GT and UVA were respectable. Wake was below average. Duke and UNC were woeful. Imagine if the conference stayed closer to home when they had such a place of advantage to negotiate from. Their immediate goal was 12 ... so let's get from 9 to 12:

+ Tennessee
+ Miami
+ Virginia Tech

Then we do the zipper:

Miami
Georgia Tech
Duke
North Carolina
Virginia
Maryland

Florida State
Clemson
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Tennessee

What if the pink sunset clouds in the sky are really cotton candy.
What if there was so many fish, there was no room for water in the sea.
What if over every hill is a valley and it is only 6ft deep.

(01-22-2015 09:01 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  THREAD DERAILMENT!

To me the better What If is what if the ACC went a different direction with their original expansion? At the time, they were making more money than the SEC team for team. They were #1 in the Sagarin. FSU, Clemson, UMD, NCST were good. GT and UVA were respectable. Wake was below average. Duke and UNC were woeful. Imagine if the conference stayed closer to home when they had such a place of advantage to negotiate from. Their immediate goal was 12 ... so let's get from 9 to 12:

+ Tennessee
+ Miami
+ Virginia Tech

Then we do the zipper:

Miami
Georgia Tech
Duke
North Carolina
Virginia
Maryland

Florida State
Clemson
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Tennessee

Enough with Tennessee already!!!

(01-22-2015 09:01 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  THREAD DERAILMENT!

To me the better What If is what if the ACC went a different direction with their original expansion? At the time, they were making more money than the SEC team for team. They were #1 in the Sagarin. FSU, Clemson, UMD, NCST were good. GT and UVA were respectable. Wake was below average. Duke and UNC were woeful. Imagine if the conference stayed closer to home when they had such a place of advantage to negotiate from. Their immediate goal was 12 ... so let's get from 9 to 12:

+ Tennessee
+ Miami
+ Virginia Tech

Then we do the zipper:

Miami
Georgia Tech
Duke
North Carolina
Virginia
Maryland

Florida State
Clemson
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Tennessee

Yes. This is a thread derailment. A hijacking, actually.

Consider this. The addition of Virginia Tech would mean that the ACC had nine members from the start. A majority of them NOT in North Carolina. With a nine team league, does the ACC ever get the idea to have a conference basketball tournament? Eight teams makes a perfect tournament, nine not so much.

Does the ACC, then, become the hoops-centric league many of us grew up with, or does football rule the roost (since FB was the reason the league formed in the first place)?

Without the frustrations brought on at least in part by failures to win the conference hoops tournament, does South Carolina leave the league in 1971?

If Georgia Tech becomes the 10th member, instead of the 8th, does FSU ever join the league, or do they come into the SEC with Arkansas in the 90's?

These are the kinds of questions I had in mind.

(01-22-2015 09:24 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:   Enough with Tennessee already!!!

(01-22-2015 09:18 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  What if the pink sunset clouds in the sky are really cotton candy.
What if there was so many fish, there was no room for water in the sea.
What if over every hill is a valley and it is only 6ft deep.

1. Then I'm moving to LA, the land of sunsets.

2. Then there are about to be a TON of dead fish, and that is going to smell really bad. I'm moving to the Midwest, which is as far from the ocean as I can get.

3. Then running would be easier, unless you mean hill + an additional valley. In that case, running would be harder.

If VT joined the ACC from the beginning it also might have changed the path for several other conferences and schools. We wouldn't have played them in the Metro and with having won two NC in basketball and just coming off a big Fiesta Bowl win with all kinds of momentum in football, I wonder if the Big East might have picked us up in 1991. Butterfly effect.

The league was formed with the expressed intent of keeping VT and West Va out because of their support for the Bowl Ban.

The So-Con used a tournament to determine the basketball champion before the ACC used the same approach - that would not have changed.

The only way VT makes into the ACC is for the So-Con not to have been split by Maryland, Clemson, and Duke.

So the real question is "what would have happened to the Southern Conference if VT's president had not pushed the Bowl Ban to a vote where recently added member West Va broke the tie?

The likely answer is that the Southern Conference continues with it's 17 members and the smallest members, invited after the 13 SEC members left in 1933, would have slowly exited when they could not be competitive in football - that would take out VMI, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, etc. UVa would have continued as an independent.

The rubber would have hit the road in 1962 when Duke pushed through emphasis of football with the 800 SAT rule. Who knows what MD, Clemson, and SC would have done at that point.

The So-Con from 1933 to 1953 was the de-facto ACC. Tossing out or keeping VT from 1954 forward probably changes nothing.

(01-22-2015 11:53 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  The league was formed with the expressed intent of keeping VT and West Va out because of their support for the Bowl Ban.

The So-Con used a tournament to determine the basketball champion before the ACC used the same approach - that would not have changed.

The only way VT makes into the ACC is for the So-Con not to have been split by Maryland, Clemson, and Duke.

So the real question is "what would have happened to the Southern Conference if VT's president had not pushed the Bowl Ban to a vote where recently added member West Va broke the tie?

The likely answer is that the Southern Conference continues with it's 17 members and the smallest members, invited after the 13 SEC members left in 1933, would have slowly exited when they could not be competitive in football - that would take out VMI, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, etc. UVa would have continued as an independent.

The rubber would have hit the road in 1962 when Duke pushed through emphasis of football with the 800 SAT rule. Who knows what MD, Clemson, and SC would have done at that point.

The So-Con from 1933 to 1953 was the de-facto ACC. Tossing out or keeping VT from 1954 forward probably changes nothing.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. VT was not the key piece.

Now, if you had asked what would've happened if the ACC had headed off the Big East attempt to become a football conference by inviting Miami and VT in 1991 - THAT really IS an interesting question, IMO.

(01-22-2015 02:13 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 11:53 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  The league was formed with the expressed intent of keeping VT and West Va out because of their support for the Bowl Ban.

The So-Con used a tournament to determine the basketball champion before the ACC used the same approach - that would not have changed.

The only way VT makes into the ACC is for the So-Con not to have been split by Maryland, Clemson, and Duke.

So the real question is "what would have happened to the Southern Conference if VT's president had not pushed the Bowl Ban to a vote where recently added member West Va broke the tie?

The likely answer is that the Southern Conference continues with it's 17 members and the smallest members, invited after the 13 SEC members left in 1933, would have slowly exited when they could not be competitive in football - that would take out VMI, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, etc. UVa would have continued as an independent.

The rubber would have hit the road in 1962 when Duke pushed through emphasis of football with the 800 SAT rule. Who knows what MD, Clemson, and SC would have done at that point.

The So-Con from 1933 to 1953 was the de-facto ACC. Tossing out or keeping VT from 1954 forward probably changes nothing.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. VT was not the key piece.

Now, if you had asked what would've happened if the ACC had headed off the Big East attempt to become a football conference by inviting Miami and VT in 1991 - THAT really IS an interesting question, IMO.

I wonder if FSU & Miami would have both joined at the same time, being in-state rivals & such.

Back in the late 1980s, ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan should've invited Penn State, Miami, South Carolina and FSU to give the ACC 12 member schools. That would've resolved the football issue and given Maryland a much needed geographic rival within the ACC.

(01-22-2015 03:37 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  Back in the late 1980s, ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan should've invited Penn State, Miami, South Carolina and FSU to give the ACC 12 member schools. That would've resolved the football issue and given Maryland a much needed geographic rival within the ACC.

But as you know Corrigan didn't have that power over the Presidents/Chancellors. Getting FSU in was like pulling teeth and MD never wanted Penn State in the ACC - that was told to me years ago by the MD's AD son who went on to UNC's AD. MD considered the folks in Happy Valley to be a bunch of rednecks - and after all Central Pa is really just Alabama with more snow.

Duke was against expansion. UNC likely would not support South Carolina and I don't Clemson's feeling on USC at that time. I'm not sure Penn State would have wanted to be in a conference with Miami at that time.

From all I've ever been told, the ACC had no way to get to Penn State, before Penn State and the B10 reached a deal because until PSU went to the B10, MD opposed. By time MD's thoughts changed, it was too late, also, the MD athletic department was in total disarray in the 80's after Len Bias died and Lefty and the AD were essentially burned in effigy by the Kirwan - the same man that pulled MD out of the ACC.

MD had opposed Florida in the 70's when Florida sent out feelers.

And new folks can not understand the value of ACC tournament tickets before the NCAA tournament expanded. They were worth their weight in gold. Diluting that distribution was stab in the heart to how Duke, UNC, and MD ran their booster clubs. While we can see the value of football today, you could not sell losing 300 ACC Tourney books to infidels like PSU, FSU, Miami, and worst of all - those bastard Sandlapers from Columbia.

I've never heard a scenario or figured one out one where the ACC gets Miami, FSU, and Penn State. I've seen a zillion scenarios for any two, but never all three.

(01-22-2015 03:37 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  Back in the late 1980s, ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan should've invited Penn State, Miami, South Carolina and FSU to give the ACC 12 member schools. That would've resolved the football issue and given Maryland a much needed geographic rival within the ACC.

Terp, exchanging Syracuse for SC might have helped swing such a deal - that might have solved Penn State's heartburn over Miami, and MD's old heartburn over South Carolina. Remember, even though South Carolina pulled out over the 800 SAT rule, and the ACC telling SC that Frank McGuire could not run his own basketball AD department - the real bad blood was between McGuire and Lefty so for MD to even consider SC, Lefty has to be gone, meaning Len Bias has to be dead, meaning that the MD administration is in disarray and unable to do a damn thing correct.

MD's financial problems of the 2010's all go back to Bias' death, and the AD's chosen in quick succession and Kirwan who wanted to bury MD sports in the aftermath.

(01-22-2015 04:49 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:37 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  Back in the late 1980s, ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan should've invited Penn State, Miami, South Carolina and FSU to give the ACC 12 member schools. That would've resolved the football issue and given Maryland a much needed geographic rival within the ACC.

Terp, exchanging Syracuse for SC might have helped swing such a deal - that might have solved Penn State's heartburn over Miami, and MD's old heartburn over South Carolina. Remember, even though South Carolina pulled out over the 800 SAT rule, and the ACC telling SC that Frank McGuire could not run his own basketball AD department - the real bad blood was between McGuire and Lefty so for MD to even consider SC, Lefty has to be gone, meaning Len Bias has to be dead, meaning that the MD administration is in disarray and unable to do a damn thing correct.

MD's financial problems of the 2010's all go back to Bias' death, and the AD's chosen in quick succession and Kirwan who wanted to bury MD sports in the aftermath.

Wait, so what's your theory on UND's financial issues?

Oh, this is fun.....

Maybe if the ACC were to retain South Carolina maybe the $ec would have invited L'ville to pair with ukant. ........Or lots of other fun scenarios
FlossY Out...

Here's the real issue and what if?

What if Duke had not been successful in de-emphasizing football in the ACC back in 1962, causing the ACC to keep it's Orange Bowl arrangement, helping to keep SC in the fold and preventing 15 years of second rate ACC football due to not being able to take certain recruits?

To me this is the real what if of the ACC. And I think it results in SC never leaving, Florida joining in the mid 70's, GT joining in the late 70's, and Penn State joining in the 80's.

Florida
GT
SC
Clemson
WF
Duke
UNC
NC State
UVa
MD
Penn State

And a search for a 12th after PSU - with the leading candidate being Syracuse, and VT attempting to pull the same political power play it pulled in 2003. If UNC and Duke are in cahoots for VT over Syracuse, but doing it under the radar, I thing VT gets the 12th spot. If not and Syracuse gets that spot, then the question becomes who is 13th and 14th. I have no doubt the B10 would have then moved to add VT and Pitt.

BC, West Va, Rutgers are then the three odd-manned out from the Big East, or Eastern Independents. If the ACC again pulled in ND, the B10 probably again responds with Rutgers and BC.

Perhaps someone attached to WF will write a book and tell a fair and accurate version that we can all trust.

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)HRFlossY Wrote:  Oh, this is fun.....

Maybe if the ACC were to retain South Carolina maybe the $ec would have invited L'ville to pair with ukant. ........Or lots of other fun scenarios
FlossY Out...

At the time that SC was selected (92) had they been in the ACC, the SEC eastern expansion would have been VT or West Va - both good fits with the SEC probably chasing VT most. Remember, SC football had stunk for 70 years when they joined the SEC. They were added just to get to 12.

1. No ACC demphasis of Football
2. SC does not get pissed and leaves
3. SEC still expands in 92
4. ACC and B10 seek to match

This is what you probably get:

ACC at 12

Florida
GT
Clemson
SC
NC State
UNC
WF
Duke
UVa
MD
Penn State
Syracuse
13. West Virginia
14. Kansas/ND if Kanas to B10
15. Louisville
16. Iowa State

SEC at 12

VT
KY
Vandy
Tenn
UGA
Florida State
Miami
Auburn
Bama
Ole Miss
MSU
LSU
13. TAMU
14. Arkansas
15. Oklahoma
16. Texas (Do the Longhorns swallow their pride?) If not TCU or Baylor might be here. Perhaps even OSU.

B10

Nebraska
Iowa
Minnesotta
Illinois
NW
Wisky
Indiana
Purdue
Michigan
MSU
Ohio State
Pittsburgh
13. Rutgers
14. BC
15. Mizzou
16. ND/Kansas if ND to the ACC

At this point the B12 is essentially still intact, until the conferences start going to 14 and the B12 lose Nebraska to the B10 and Colorado to the P12.

Assets still on the table at this point are Notre Dame, Rutgers, BC, and West Va. The issue now is can the B12 hold Arkansas, TAMU and Mizzou? If the big 3 conferences are hell bent to go to 14, and no one can get along with Texas, then I still think TAMU and Arkansas go to the SEC. If the B10 still needs it's eastern push and can't get ND, they are looking at Rutgers and BC. That leaves the ACC looking at ND and determining if the B12 will collapse in full.

Now you are parceling out Texas, Baylor, TT, (no TCU) Iowa State, Oklahoma, OSU Kansas, K-State, Iowa State, Mizzou from the B12, and West Va left in the east.


Those that remain **** out of luck are UConn, Cincy, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, TCU, TT, and Baylor, but if you culled the best from the American, you might have something that is not all that bad.