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Transformation vs Incrementalism
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #841
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(07-02-2019 01:02 AM)Ourland Wrote:  
(07-01-2019 08:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I personally don't care if we get invited to p5 or not... I still want to find a way to be relevant in the big 3 and right now w'ere not remotely so.

Being invited to p5 would certainly make a lot of things easier, but I think it more likely that something happens to change the dynamics entirely.

MY problem is that we aren't even trying to compete at the highest level. That isn't remotely 'Rice'-like

This is exactly how I feel. I see upgrades being made in facilities, and coaching salaris are up, but Rice is always so koy about it's investments in athletics. We never seem to know much about when or where money is being spent or plans are being made. Everything is held close to the vest.

Sometimes it makes me feel like they don't care, but that can't be true. I think what makes it worse is that everyone else these days are the opposite

Think you meant "coy", but nevertheless, this popped into my head when I read that:

Artist: Ray Stevens
Album: Shriner's Convention
Song: "Shriner's Convention"
February 12, 1980 RCA Records

The song is based on Stevens' experiences at an Atlanta hotel where an actual Shriner's convention was being held. Stevens' version celebrates the '43rd Annual Convention of the Grand Mystic Royal Order of the Nobles of the Ali Baba Temple of the Shrine.' The main humor of the song involves a one-sided dialogue, via hotel phone, between two members of the Hahira, Georgia, delegation: leader "Illustrious Potentate" (Bubba), and member "Noble Lumpkin" (Coy), who has gone rogue. Stevens voices Bubba, while Coy's voice is unheard, his comments made known only by Bubba's reactions to them.


07-06-2019 03:04 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #842
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(07-05-2019 04:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I like this discussion, but I want to be clear about what I'm saying...

We aren't trying to compete at the highest level.



We need 20 guys a year in football, 2-3 in basketball and 10-15 in baseball that would rather attend Rice than other 'competitive with p5' schools.
How you define that, what that looks like can have a variety of descriptions... but it all boils down to recruiting a certain type of player... and likely GREATLY expanding our current methods.

Heck, with the best players really all going to these recruiting services... a lot of the work is already being done. We just have to find the ones who enjoy a challenge/value the education/like the big city over the college town.

What does it take to find, recruit and sign those guys? That's what we need to be spending our dollars on, and it wouldn't be 750mm. It sure might mean spending $5mm more on coaching staff and another $5mm on equipment and maintenance and recruiting. I'm betting (and I know I would) if the university put forth that sort of effort to attempt to be competitive, that in addition to higher gates, raising money for things like concessions and restrooms and locker rooms etc etc etc would get a WHOLE lot easier.


I'm going to greatly oversimplify it....
But if we simply offered scholarships to all of the 4-5 star recruits of say Tech or Arkansas that had the academic background to get into Rice and said things to them like big fish, small pond... accept a greater challenge... showed the value difference of the education... the national exposure in Houston as opposed to Lubbock etc etc etc and you did that to 50 p5 schools... and we had made it clear as a University that we intended to be competitive by say hiring a big name NFL type coach or a number of that sort of assistant staff or whatever... I'm betting we'd get a few of those guys. And when they started to win CUSA and be competitive with those bigger schools, you'd get a whole lot more of them. Offer the prestige of some of our grad programs to grad transfers whom we missed out on the first time and now have another chance.

Yeah, that'd likely work out a lot better for Rice than what we've been doing. But the central theme to most all of the posters that desire something better from/for Rice Big 3 sports is Commitment from the University (backed by dollars from the University for something.)

That said, there are the rare few coaches who get it done despite...Wayne sure did at the start and for a long while after...no one really expected him to. TG had the right ideas about raising money and making improvements he wanted himself, but the wrong ideas about ethics. Still, he just might've had to figure he was working 2-3 jobs here at Rice and could go to Tulsa and just focus on the one (coaching).

RUOwls had/has ideas about vectors and leverage and how to take ours'uns and beat theirs'uns but he requires a financial commitment to leave what he's doing to come here and try. Plus, it'd be an "unconventional" hire, and Rice doesn't do anything unconventionally, it turns out--despite the marketing slogans.

While I hold there is a coach or two out there who could do it here as things stand now, I'm uncertain if that will be Bloom, or yet someone else. It is the job of the U and AD to identify the person(s) best suited for making Rice Big 3 sports a success, but either their definition of success differs from some of the posters in this thread, or they consider what they have done successful enough for Rice's purposes. Neither of those seems congruent with the rest of the University but there we are.

I don't think the problem is as much no one involved has thought of a strategy or two to make it work here, it's more the leadership just doesn't have the heart for the fight. If a handful of men could hold off Santa Ana at the Alamo, it wasn't because they had the best facilities, or newest weapons, or a barbershop in their EZF...it's that they were the kind of men who could build a county like Texas...determined, despite the odds, and despite what they did or did not have. They committed to doing it to the death. Seems a shame that doesn't resonate here at Rice as much as one would hope it would. Some schools have the Alamo guys...we seem to have the Shriner's Convention guys.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2019 03:40 PM by GoodOwl.)
07-06-2019 03:37 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #843
Exclamation RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
Rice could have been, should have been more like this. Wish we'd at least try to play them once in a while:

Georgia Tech faces tight budget, but increased revenues in future

[Image: 102217%20tech%20photo%20slug%20HS41.JPG]
07-15-2019 05:50 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #844
Exclamation RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
When I think of "Intellectual Brutality", I think of....Chess Boxing!

started as a joke, but now it's an actual thing.
World Chess Boxing Championships - 1 of 2



World Chess Boxing Championships - 2 of 2









July 12, 2019 Brains Vs Brawn - Two Chessboxing Matches With Different Results




Wonder how Rice would do if we had a team for this?
10-12-2019 09:46 PM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #845
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(10-12-2019 09:46 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  When I think of "Intellectual Brutality", I think of....Chess Boxing!

started as a joke, but now it's an actual thing.
World Chess Boxing Championships - 1 of 2



World Chess Boxing Championships - 2 of 2









July 12, 2019 Brains Vs Brawn - Two Chessboxing Matches With Different Results




Wonder how Rice would do if we had a team for this?

I think the best hope would be for win by checkmates.
10-13-2019 07:21 AM
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chrisc Offline
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Post: #846
Transformation vs Incrementalism
Some on this board may have participated in 'Fight Night' at Autry Court in the late 80s. I'll let them fill in the details. Would have been even better with chess.

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10-13-2019 09:27 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #847
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(10-13-2019 09:27 AM)chrisc Wrote:  Some on this board may have participated in 'Fight Night' at Autry Court in the late 80s. I'll let them fill in the details. Would have been even better with chess.

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Fight Night was hard to top!
10-14-2019 03:32 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #848
Exclamation RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
We have Transformation into Backwardism, for the time bring....

Was going to posit a query before this week's game: "Now that another losing season is assured, what if Bloom runs the table and wins the last 5 games this year--would we feel the same as when previous coach sucked the pooch and then went on a mini-run, who-cares?-style against conference also-rans?"

The most redeeming quality readily apparent in Coach B at this point is he is not the previous guy. But, although he has been clear about what he wants to do here, I'm not seeing a clear way for it to work here....maybe somewhere else, his plan is doable...here, it seems unlikely. Previo0us coach Blind Squirrel, managed to find a few nuts in 11 mostly dreadful and underachieving years. As to the let him have three years before deciding plan, well, looks like he's gonna need a big run in 2020 to make up for his first two. 5-7 or worse next year won;t cut it IMO. even 6-6 with a loss in a who cares? bowl would be disappointing.

I'll take "Surgeons who want to coach" for 1,000,000, Alex (Alex? Alex?? you still with us, Alex?)

Ouchie!
10-26-2019 11:06 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #849
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(10-26-2019 11:06 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  The most redeeming quality readily apparent in Coach B at this point is he is not the previous guy.

Finally! The only “AnybodyButBailiff” booster still sticking to his guns. Got to give you a gold star on perseverance.

But I thought you were also an advocate of not being shy about pulling the trigger on a failed or failing coach. Is it time to fire Bloom or should we stay our hand? In either case, why?
10-27-2019 10:13 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #850
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
Q: How's this? Rice likes setting goals. We need a simple goal in sports, specifically football, to help Transform the program back to a majorly competitive level. What if the Admin/BOT/AD set one simple goal for Rice football:

We would like Rice football to function consistently at a level where if we can schedule Alabama again in whatever deal will do it (2 for 1, 3 for 1, 10 for 1 where the 1 is at home at Rice Stadium) we can play that game competitively and closely enough that we have a better than 50% chance of maintaining our undefeated record against them.

Rice pledges (with financial resources from the school to back it up) that it will do what it takes to get there as soon as possible, with the caveat that it will not violate ethical rules and standards. It will instead seek to get the kids that can go to Rice and play top football who are currently for some reason not coming here to come and play here. Since we can now pay money to college athletes directly, per the new NCAA changes, we will embark on a clear and very public effort to do so, as this is consistent with the new Rice initiative to offer free/low cost tuition and expenses to regular Rice students.

That gives a clear focus to where we want the program to be, the type caliber of players we are willing to recruit and the type resources we are willing to start committing to get us there: all things desperately and specifically needed in Rice Football which we do not have now.
11-12-2019 12:30 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #851
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
I just realized you mistitled this thread, GO. It should be transcendentalism vs. Excrementalism.
11-12-2019 12:58 PM
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RiceBull Offline
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Post: #852
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
"a better than 50% chance of maintaining our undefeated record against them." Might as well make it a goal that we be #1 in the nation.
11-12-2019 01:05 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #853
Exclamation RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
Here are the only goals related to winning more I could find specifically stated by the Rice Athletic Program (from it's "Vision for Victory 2019-2023 Strategic Plan" posted on the owl website):

Quote:IMPROVE ATHLETIC COMPETITIVENESS
Goal 4 — Optimize performance through a holistic, science-based approach: Employ a comprehensive approach to maximizing athletic performance, addressing both the physical and mental from preperformance to recovery, in collaboration with strategic partners.
Goal 5 — Attract and retain elite coaches and staff: Develop a systematic hiring process for coaches and staff, and increase retention through professional development and a growing culture of appreciation.
Goal 6 — Identify, recruit, and retain top prospects: Improve the process of identifying and attracting talented, high-potential recruits that are a fit for Rice, and improve retention rates through a targeted student-athlete development strategy

I'll comment here on only the BIG 3 Men's Sports, since that's pretty much what drives profit and profile for the school nationally:

IMO the phrase "Improve athletic competitiveness" is a non-starter. It commits to nothing, has no metric for winning percentages, or even winning at all, and holds no coaches accountable.
To wit: AD: "Coach, your team went 0-9, and is 2-20 overall since you got here. What do you have to say?"
Coach: "Yeah, but we improved our athletic competitiveness, as described in your Strategic Plan."
AD: "Hmmm, is that your opinion?"
Coach: "Yeah, sure."
AD: well, then, would you like to sign an extension with a raise to stay on here?"
Coach: "Yeah, super. Opinions, y'know, they say everyone's got one."
AD: "Certainly. Excellent job, Coach!"
Fans: "Bleeech."

Goal 4: (FOUR???? WTH?) Didn't we buy some kind of magic-QB-strategizer-technology-thingy a few years ago in other coach's tenure? How's our W-L record since we made that "investment?" None of what is stated in this fourth goal for the program seems to state anything about improving winning. Sounds like: "Look nicer while losing."

Goal 5: Elite coaching?? It has been well-demonstrated over decades that the primary way to do that is to open the checkbook. Where does Rice BIG3 sports group of coaches stand on this list? realizing that merely paying present coaches more, or at an equal level with average P5 national coaches does little to nothing to improve their performance. They are already chosen. The time to open the wallet is during the initial hire, and then go up from there if the coach performs well here, in order to retain him. No sense retaining a poorly performing coach (but we did for 11 years, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.) Again, Rice way of applying this does little to nothing to change the losing, which is what matters.

Goal 6: Basically says nothing more than "recruit". Are we somehow not recruiting at all right now/in past??? Is that a problem? "Improve" recruiting--exactly how do we measure this? By, I don;t know, more Wins?? Nah, too complicated an algorithm for a Rice Department to figure out.

The "Strategic Plan" states it will use "metrics" to measure.
It does not state an aspiration to return to what is now called P-5 status as soon as possible. It does not state to dominate current conference i9n most wins in each season. It does not seem to state to win more much at all.

Do "they" have a "plan" well, yeah, they have something with that word label on it. Is it a real plan for improving winning on the field in the 3 major sports at Rice? IS there a Santa Claus? Depends on how you look at it, I guess. Merry Christmas! (Is it still PC to say that?? Better check what Obier thinks.)
(This post was last modified: 11-18-2019 11:55 PM by GoodOwl.)
11-12-2019 01:27 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #854
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(11-12-2019 12:30 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Q: How's this? Rice likes setting goals. We need a simple goal in sports, specifically football, to help Transform the program back to a majorly competitive level. What if the Admin/BOT/AD set one simple goal for Rice football:

We would like Rice football to function consistently at a level where if we can schedule Alabama again in whatever deal will do it (2 for 1, 3 for 1, 10 for 1 where the 1 is at home at Rice Stadium) we can play that game competitively and closely enough that we have a better than 50% chance of maintaining our undefeated record against them.

Rice pledges (with financial resources from the school to back it up) that it will do what it takes to get there as soon as possible, with the caveat that it will not violate ethical rules and standards. It will instead seek to get the kids that can go to Rice and play top football who are currently for some reason not coming here to come and play here. Since we can now pay money to college athletes directly, per the new NCAA changes, we will embark on a clear and very public effort to do so, as this is consistent with the new Rice initiative to offer free/low cost tuition and expenses to regular Rice students.

That gives a clear focus to where we want the program to be, the type caliber of players we are willing to recruit and the type resources we are willing to start committing to get us there: all things desperately and specifically needed in Rice Football which we do not have now.

Under all the legislation being discussed (at least as I understand it), colleges themselves still will not be able to pay players directly (except for the cost-of-living stipend that they're already able to give). Instead, players will be able to receive payments from third parties for use of their name, image, or likeness.

So basically, boosters will be free to go up to recruits/players, ask them to draw stick figures of themselves on napkins, and then fork over cash for that "image or likeness." That wasn't the intent of this whole movement but surprise (not), well-intentioned social engineering can end up having unintended consequences.

To your point, then, Rice isn't going to be able to set up a slush fund for players. That is something we alumni will have to do on our own.
11-12-2019 01:27 PM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #855
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(11-12-2019 01:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  To your point, then, Rice isn't going to be able to set up a slush fund for players. That is something we alumni will have to do on our own.

I'm told a certain Mr Doerr is quite interested in "leadership"...
11-12-2019 02:29 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #856
Exclamation RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(11-25-2019 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 01:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  What does "going for the Transformation" look like? How do you know if a guy is Transformative before hiring him?

Does a Transformative succeed in Year One no matter what he has to work with?

In some ways, it depends on how you define success.... and what you're trying to 'transform' from or in to.

Again, I think the challenge will be 'what's next'. As an example, I think many would say the defense has improved. If it has, then others will notice and want to hire away the guys responsible for it. What do we do when that happens? It seems that when that happened with DB, we stopped being able to coach and/or recruit


I think this guy has what it takes to help Rice climb back up to the heights:


11-26-2019 12:01 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #857
Transformation vs Incrementalism
Not really impressed.
Flying would be much more efficient.
11-26-2019 03:27 PM
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RiceBull Offline
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Post: #858
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
Ya. I never understood why we don't all have wings. It seems like such a natural progression for evolution. What's taking so long?
11-26-2019 04:10 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #859
Transformation vs Incrementalism
(11-26-2019 04:10 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Ya. I never understood why we don't all have wings. It seems like such a natural progression for evolution. What's taking so long?


Well, we could live
For a thousand years
And if I hurt you
I’d make wine from your tears
I told you
That we can fly
Because we all have wings
But some of us don’t know why
11-26-2019 09:36 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #860
RE: Transformation vs Incrementalism
(11-26-2019 09:36 PM)owl at the moon Wrote:  
(11-26-2019 04:10 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Ya. I never understood why we don't all have wings. It seems like such a natural progression for evolution. What's taking so long?


Well, we could live
For a thousand years
And if I hurt you
I’d make wine from your tears
I told you
That we can fly
Because we all have wings
But some of us don’t know why

I was standing
You were there
two worlds collided
and they could never tear us apart...
unless we were found hanging by a rope in a hotel suite.
RIP, Michael.
11-26-2019 09:39 PM
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