http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releas...e-in-2015/

We are airing a #30for30 titled "I Hate Christian Laettner" this March. Seriously.
-- ESPN Films 30 for 30 @30for30

HATE IS A STRONG WORD

Especially since All Louisville fans Love the guy.
FLossY Out...

Hate leads to the Dark Side

I have no problem whatsoever with Christian Laettner. I think he was a great college basketball player who made one of the greatest shots in the history of the game, in what remains the best college basketball game I have ever seen. I did not have a rooting interest in either Duke or Kentucky but that was an amazing college basketball game. I've never seen anything like it before or since.

I have no idea why people hate Laettner as much as they do? I think it is a Duke thing. JJ Reddick also had a lot of people who really hated him and it too was a little strange.

I think when you were that good as a program for as long as Duke has been good, it is easy to hate the people that are the face of that program.

Also, this is a weird phenomenon but I think there's a racial component to it as well. For some reason whenever there is a good white basketball player a lot of people seem to develop an inordinate disdain (or love) for that player.

For example, I don't think there was ever a more hated player in the NBA than Bill Laimbeer. Sure he was a dirty player and overly physical but there have been dozens of guys who are dirtier and more physical and you really don't care as much about those guys. Yet, Bill Laimbeer became the main villain on that Detroit basketball team. I have never understood why he was singled out as the worst of the "Bad Boys" whatever that entire team played with an edge to it?

Don't get me wrong, I could not stand Bill Laimbeer either. I think he was a douche. However so was Isaiah Thomas. So was Rick Mahorn. So was Dennis Rodman. And yet nobody talked about those guys. They talked about Bill Laimbeer.

When Tyler Hansbrough was at North Carolina, I knew a lot of people that were not fans of North Carolina's rivals and had no real interest in the ACC but they still absolutely hated that cat. From my perspective, all that guy did was play hard every single night and yet people hated his guts.

It is just this weird basketball phenomenon. I think when you have a standout white basketball player, for some reason it tends to get onto the skin of white fans. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen but it's true.

Also, some guys are able to rise above it. For example, aside from his opponents everyone seemed to love Larry Bird. However, his teammate Danny Ainge, hated as much as any player in the league. It is just one of those weird basketball deals that I will never understand. I sincerely hope the Christian Laettner documentary goes into detail about this phenomenon because it is totally bizarre.

I 100% agree with the subject of this thread.

The one good thing that you can say about Christian Laettner is that he is not the worst or most hated Dook basketball player of all time.
That distinction belongs to Art Heyman. Dook fans won't even mention his name, he was that big of a jerk.

(11-20-2014 08:28 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I have no problem whatsoever with Christian Laettner. I think he was a great college basketball player who made one of the greatest shots in the history of the game, in what remains the best college basketball game I have ever seen. I did not have a rooting interest in either Duke or Kentucky but that was an amazing college basketball game. I've never seen anything like it before or since.

I have no idea why people hate Laettner as much as they do? I think it is a Duke thing. JJ Reddick also had a lot of people who really hated him and it too was a little strange.

I think when you were that good as a program for as long as Duke has been good, it is easy to hate the people that are the face of that program.

Also, this is a weird phenomenon but I think there's a racial component to it as well. For some reason whenever there is a good white basketball player a lot of people seem to develop an inordinate disdain (or love) for that player.

For example, I don't think there was ever a more hated player in the NBA than Bill Laimbeer. Sure he was a dirty player and overly physical but there have been dozens of guys who are dirtier and more physical and you really don't care as much about those guys. Yet, Bill Laimbeer became the main villain on that Detroit basketball team. I have never understood why he was singled out as the worst of the "Bad Boys" whatever that entire team played with an edge to it?

Don't get me wrong, I could not stand Bill Laimbeer either. I think he was a douche. However so was Isaiah Thomas. So was Rick Mahorn. So was Dennis Rodman. And yet nobody talked about those guys. They talked about Bill Laimbeer.

When Tyler Hansbrough was at North Carolina, I knew a lot of people that were not fans of North Carolina's rivals and had no real interest in the ACC but they still absolutely hated that cat. From my perspective, all that guy did was play hard every single night and yet people hated his guts.

It is just this weird basketball phenomenon. I think when you have a standout white basketball player, for some reason it tends to get onto the skin of white fans. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen but it's true.

Also, some guys are able to rise above it. For example, aside from his opponents everyone seemed to love Larry Bird. However, his teammate Danny Ainge, hated as much as any player in the league. It is just one of those weird basketball deals that I will never understand. I sincerely hope the Christian Laettner documentary goes into detail about this phenomenon because it is totally bizarre.

I'm with you. It's weird.

I do think it has something to do with Duke & UNC though. When you're that good for so long, you are going to have a lot of people who hate the face of your program regardless of what it looks like.

I do think that in basketball, if that face happens to be white there is even more hate. I have no idea why but since you pointed it out, I agree.

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=1...rc=desktop

A black man's game
-- Larry Bird

THE HICK FROM FRENCH LICK

I always loved this line:

Yet later in the discussion, Bird described being guarded by another white in his prime as "disrespect."

"The one thing that always bothered me when I played in the NBA was I really got irritated when they put a white guy on me," Bird said. "I still don't understand why. A white guy would come out (and) I would always ask him: 'What, do you have a problem with your coach? Did your coach do this to you?' And he'd go, 'No,' and I'd say, 'Come on, you got a white guy coming out here to guard me; you got no chance.' ... For some reason, that always bothered me when I was playing against a white guy.

"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black," Bird added. "I just didn't want a white guy guarding me. Because it's disrespect to my game."

(11-20-2014 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  The one good thing that you can say about Christian Laettner is that he is not the worst or most hated Dook basketball player of all time.
That distinction belongs to Art Heyman. Dook fans won't even mention his name, he was that big of a jerk.

You sir are showing your age

Wasn't he one of the boys that WF's coach was egging on during the fight between you and Duke back in the 50's?

(11-20-2014 04:56 PM)ndlutz Wrote:  

(11-20-2014 08:28 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I have no problem whatsoever with Christian Laettner. I think he was a great college basketball player who made one of the greatest shots in the history of the game, in what remains the best college basketball game I have ever seen. I did not have a rooting interest in either Duke or Kentucky but that was an amazing college basketball game. I've never seen anything like it before or since.

I have no idea why people hate Laettner as much as they do? I think it is a Duke thing. JJ Reddick also had a lot of people who really hated him and it too was a little strange.

I think when you were that good as a program for as long as Duke has been good, it is easy to hate the people that are the face of that program.

Also, this is a weird phenomenon but I think there's a racial component to it as well. For some reason whenever there is a good white basketball player a lot of people seem to develop an inordinate disdain (or love) for that player.

For example, I don't think there was ever a more hated player in the NBA than Bill Laimbeer. Sure he was a dirty player and overly physical but there have been dozens of guys who are dirtier and more physical and you really don't care as much about those guys. Yet, Bill Laimbeer became the main villain on that Detroit basketball team. I have never understood why he was singled out as the worst of the "Bad Boys" whatever that entire team played with an edge to it?

Don't get me wrong, I could not stand Bill Laimbeer either. I think he was a douche. However so was Isaiah Thomas. So was Rick Mahorn. So was Dennis Rodman. And yet nobody talked about those guys. They talked about Bill Laimbeer.

When Tyler Hansbrough was at North Carolina, I knew a lot of people that were not fans of North Carolina's rivals and had no real interest in the ACC but they still absolutely hated that cat. From my perspective, all that guy did was play hard every single night and yet people hated his guts.

It is just this weird basketball phenomenon. I think when you have a standout white basketball player, for some reason it tends to get onto the skin of white fans. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen but it's true.

Also, some guys are able to rise above it. For example, aside from his opponents everyone seemed to love Larry Bird. However, his teammate Danny Ainge, hated as much as any player in the league. It is just one of those weird basketball deals that I will never understand. I sincerely hope the Christian Laettner documentary goes into detail about this phenomenon because it is totally bizarre.

I'm with you. It's weird.

I do think it has something to do with Duke & UNC though. When you're that good for so long, you are going to have a lot of people who hate the face of your program regardless of what it looks like.

I do think that in basketball, if that face happens to be white there is even more hate. I have no idea why but since you pointed it out, I agree.

To many non-Carolina fans, Hans liked to flop and whine. No one like whining and flopping. Now a mean SOB Carolina bb player was Tommy LaGuard and Mitch Kupchek - they would fight. Kenny Denard at Duke in the mid 70's loved a cheap shot. State used to have this guy in the last 60's, early 70's, can't remember his real name, but we called him "Dirty" Dan.

Memories - those were the real days of ACC basketball.

But as a group, no one topped the 1969-1971 Gamecocks as far a being top notch bastards.

Part of the issue with Laetner may be his post Duke business activities.

There's a lot to why people hated him. He was the best college basketball player I've ever seen. He's also from my home town, so I always followed his career.

1. He was the best. It's not unusual for people to hate the best.
2. He was white and privileged in a sport that's not normally considered "for" the white and privileged
3. He seemed like a dick
4. He seemed arrogant
5. Duke, as a program, has a ton of haters.
6. He stomped a guy who was on the ground
7. He was very emotional, almost femininely emotional at times
8. His haircut was disliked

I'm not saying he actually was all these things. But I don't care even if it's everyday life, if there's a guy that's clearly the best and always beats you at your job or whatever, AND is rich and privileged, AND has an arrogant manner about him, AND is kind of a dick to everyone, AND makes a giant show of his emotions...yeah, you probably hate that guy.

Laettner had just a murderers row of qualities most people don't like. Not one or two, that generally make someone endearing...but the whole slate.

Right, but back to the reverse racism thing; Michigan's Fab Five of that era was every bit as obnoxious as Duke. In fact, they were probably more obnoxious then the blue Devils.

All they talked about and all their supporters talked about was how they were revolutionizing the game on every level from how it was played to the fashion of the game. Also, no one had ever seen a collection of talent like that and blah, blah, blah.

And yet, despite being so over-the-top and so in everyone's face, and so over marketed and overhyped, they were seen as being cool. They were not privileged but they were certainly overly emotional and they were insanely arrogant. Yet, they were not hated anywhere near the way Christian Laettner and Duke was hated by most of the general public.

I sincerely believe it was because they had more white kids and their lineup and there are a lot of fans, even white fans, who seem to be quick to hate white players who are good.

I am not a Duke fan at all and I have never been a Duke fan. However, I don't see them as being different from say, North Carolina for example, at all. I see them as being Siamese twins. It is weird that they are positioned in a way that makes them seem somehow different because they each have had roughly the same level of success and they each recruit the same McDonald's All-Americans. They also seem both like really good schools who can be a little hoity-toity. I mean North Carolina has a faux cardigan design going down the side of their basketball uniforms. It doesn't get more more hoity-toity than that. And I'm not criticizing UNC, which is a great school that I would be proud to have my son attend that university. I am just saying that I don't see much, if any, difference at all between UNC and Duke.

The only slight difference between the two is that Duke has had more white kids. At least from my standpoint, it seems like a race thing more than anything else.

I suppose there are a lot of reasons to dislike him but the one that stands out for me might not be as well known. He was working the Campbell Summer camp as one of those special guests that doesn't really work with the kids, just makes an appearance and offer a motivational talk for the kids. Now it should be noted that the Campbell camp is the oldest in the nation and isn't an elite camp or a team camp. It is designed for average kids that like basketball. Anyway, when he spoke to the kids he told them that doing well in school didn't matter, just get as good as you can at playing the game. Campbell coach Billy Lee kicked him out and told him he wasn't welcome there again.

(11-22-2014 12:14 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Right, but back to the reverse racism thing; Michigan's Fab Five of that era was every bit as obnoxious as Duke. In fact, they were probably more obnoxious then the blue Devils.

All they talked about and all their supporters talked about was how they were revolutionizing the game on every level from how it was played to the fashion of the game. Also, no one had ever seen a collection of talent like that and blah, blah, blah.

And yet, despite being so over-the-top and so in everyone's face, and so over marketed and overhyped, they were seen as being cool. They were not privileged but they were certainly overly emotional and they were insanely arrogant. Yet, they were not hated anywhere near the way Christian Laettner and Duke was hated by most of the general public.

I sincerely believe it was because they had more white kids and their lineup and there are a lot of fans, even white fans, who seem to be quick to hate white players who are good.

I am not a Duke fan at all and I have never been a Duke fan. However, I don't see them as being different from say, North Carolina for example, at all. I see them as being Siamese twins. It is weird that they are positioned in a way that makes them seem somehow different because they each have had roughly the same level of success and they each recruit the same McDonald's All-Americans. They also seem both like really good schools who can be a little hoity-toity. I mean North Carolina has a faux cardigan design going down the side of their basketball uniforms. It doesn't get more more hoity-toity than that. And I'm not criticizing UNC, which is a great school that I would be proud to have my son attend that university. I am just saying that I don't see much, if any, difference at all between UNC and Duke.

The only slight difference between the two is that Duke has had more white kids. At least from my standpoint, it seems like a race thing more than anything else.

Duke is an elitist private school for kids from the Northeast.
UNC-CH is an elitist public school for kids from North Carolina.

Both of them put players on the court that would never ( with a few exceptions) attend those universities if they weren't elite level basketball players. It has become clear how CH keeps them eligible, not sure about how Duke does it.

anyone who can cause big blow nation to devolve into a foaming incoherent rage is a right proper chap in my book.

He got a lot of people to invest in his business and then lost all their money and left a lot of subcontractors holding the bag.

Right, but back to the reverse racism thing; Michigan's Fab Five of that era was every bit as obnoxious as Duke. In fact, they were probably more obnoxious then the blue Devils.

All they talked about and all their supporters talked about was how they were revolutionizing the game on every level from how it was played to the fashion of the game. Also, no one had ever seen a collection of talent like that and blah, blah, blah.

And yet, despite being so over-the-top and so in everyone's face, and so over marketed and overhyped, they were seen as being cool. They were not privileged but they were certainly overly emotional and they were insanely arrogant. Yet, they were not hated anywhere near the way Christian Laettner and Duke was hated by most of the general public.

I sincerely believe it was because they had more white kids and their lineup and there are a lot of fans, even white fans, who seem to be quick to hate white players who are good.

I am not a Duke fan at all and I have never been a Duke fan. However, I don't see them as being different from say, North Carolina for example, at all. I see them as being Siamese twins. It is weird that they are positioned in a way that makes them seem somehow different because they each have had roughly the same level of success and they each recruit the same McDonald's All-Americans. They also seem both like really good schools who can be a little hoity-toity. I mean North Carolina has a faux cardigan design going down the side of their basketball uniforms. It doesn't get more more hoity-toity than that. And I'm not criticizing UNC, which is a great school that I would be proud to have my son attend that university. I am just saying that I don't see much, if any, difference at all between UNC and Duke.

The only slight difference between the two is that Duke has had more white kids. At least from my standpoint, it seems like a race thing more than anything else.

(11-21-2014 05:28 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  There's a lot to why people hated him. He was the best college basketball player I've ever seen. He's also from my home town, so I always followed his career.

1. He was the best. It's not unusual for people to hate the best.
2. He was white and privileged in a sport that's not normally considered "for" the white and privileged
3. He seemed like a dick
4. He seemed arrogant
5. Duke, as a program, has a ton of haters.
6. He stomped a guy who was on the ground
7. He was very emotional, almost femininely emotional at times
8. His haircut was disliked

I'm not saying he actually was all these things. But I don't care even if it's everyday life, if there's a guy that's clearly the best and always beats you at your job or whatever, AND is rich and privileged, AND has an arrogant manner about him, AND is kind of a dick to everyone, AND makes a giant show of his emotions...yeah, you probably hate that guy.

Laettner had just a murderers row of qualities most people don't like. Not one or two, that generally make someone endearing...but the whole slate.

As for Laettner being perceived as 'privileged' in #2, Laettner grew up in a Polish-American working class family in Buffalo. He attended a private prep school, but only could do so by getting a financial aid package that -- think about this -- included Christian Laettner working as a janitor at his own high school. As a kid he picked cucumbers for 50 cents a bushel to help his family make ends meet. On Coach K's first visit to the Laettner home, their dining room table was a ping pong table with a sheet over it. Coach K remarked on their "Polish Chandelier," which was a shop light hanging from the ceiling. I strongly recommend Gene Wojciechowski's book The Last Great Game, my source for those facts.

Maybe he needed better PR, beacuse like you said the perception was one of privilege. I had it too -- insofar as I thought about it until I read the book -- I would have guessed his dad was a dentist or something like that. Maybe he was offered better PR and turned it down.

I can't say I know him personally, but I have been around him and I know others who have as well. I have heard he can be very direct and honest in a way that probably covers your #3, #4, and #7.

As for #1, he indisputably the best college basketball player of all time. By the numbers without a doubt, but also by how he mastered the relationships with the coach and his teammates (operating in a set of dynamics that are unique to college basketball) to create winning teams.

That doesn't necessarily make him the best basketball player of all time or even necessarily put him on the list.

As for #6, it was a tap, not a stomp. Watch the tape.

(11-24-2014 12:03 AM)opossum Wrote:  

(11-21-2014 05:28 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  There's a lot to why people hated him. He was the best college basketball player I've ever seen. He's also from my home town, so I always followed his career.

1. He was the best. It's not unusual for people to hate the best.
2. He was white and privileged in a sport that's not normally considered "for" the white and privileged
3. He seemed like a dick
4. He seemed arrogant
5. Duke, as a program, has a ton of haters.
6. He stomped a guy who was on the ground
7. He was very emotional, almost femininely emotional at times
8. His haircut was disliked

I'm not saying he actually was all these things. But I don't care even if it's everyday life, if there's a guy that's clearly the best and always beats you at your job or whatever, AND is rich and privileged, AND has an arrogant manner about him, AND is kind of a dick to everyone, AND makes a giant show of his emotions...yeah, you probably hate that guy.

Laettner had just a murderers row of qualities most people don't like. Not one or two, that generally make someone endearing...but the whole slate.

As for Laettner being perceived as 'privileged' in #2, Laettner grew up in a Polish-American working class family in Buffalo. He attended a private prep school, but only could do so by getting a financial aid package that -- think about this -- included Christian Laettner working as a janitor at his own high school. As a kid he picked cucumbers for 50 cents a bushel to help his family make ends meet. On Coach K's first visit to the Laettner home, their dining room table was a ping pong table with a sheet over it. Coach K remarked on their "Polish Chandelier," which was a shop light hanging from the ceiling. I strongly recommend Gene Wojciechowski's book The Last Great Game, my source for those facts.

Maybe he needed better PR, beacuse like you said the perception was one of privilege. I had it too -- insofar as I thought about it until I read the book -- I would have guessed his dad was a dentist or something like that. Maybe he was offered better PR and turned it down.

I can't say I know him personally, but I have been around him and I know others who have as well. I have heard he can be very direct and honest in a way that probably covers your #3, #4, and #7.

As for #1, he indisputably the best college basketball player of all time. By the numbers without a doubt, but also by how he mastered the relationships with the coach and his teammates (operating in a set of dynamics that are unique to college basketball) to create winning teams.

That doesn't necessarily make him the best basketball player of all time or even necessarily put him on the list.

As for #6, it was a tap, not a stomp. Watch the tape.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was trying to figure out all of this privileged talk as this is the first time I heard of it. I didn't know his family was that poor, but I also never heard about them being privileged either.