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note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
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waltgreenberg Online
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Post: #121
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 05:34 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 04:50 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Wish there was a way to give Bailiff a 3-year stretch where he had improved facilities and a bigger budget for recruiting and assistants/coordinators. Then we'd really know what his achievement ceiling was and my productivity at work would go up.

Well, Rice already set a precedent of not giving WTW the benefit you asked for. Granted, we experienced OO's scenario of hiring another guy who couldn't get the job done either...which then got us to Mike Rhoades...who seems to be different enough and raised expectations that he can get us there...time will tell, but many are excited and many have commented how they bought season tix for MBB for the first time or the first time in years, or are excited to see the team play even though they realize it will be a year or two before things really get going.

Why is that? Well, part of it seems to be the more aggressive attitude and expectations change that Rhoades has set so far with his more open marketing (youtube videos, interviews) about what he is doing different and how the players are responding. Part of it is they want to see a team, even a losing team, play that exciting style of basketball that Rhoades says (and has started showing) he is going to play. That draws fans in. I literally teared up with Rice pride when I first saw the first Rhoades summer SEAL training video. Then I was proud and happy to see both the Head Coach himself, his staff, and the AD, Dr. K also participating right alongside the players. The message: This is a TEAM, boys, and we're all in this together.

Bailiff brings tears to my eyes regularly as well. Not the same tears Rhoades generates, just tears. Sure, I'd like the facilities, and whipped cream and a cherry on top of it all, but more, I want a coach that doesn't need that to get the job done. Kinda a Hoosiers-style guy. get it done anyway. Like some posters have said: take what you got and coach 'em up and scheme 'em up a storm and steal some games you shouldn't and surprise some people. When they zig you zag, etc...

+1000. 04-cheers You're on a roll, GoodOwl-- keep it going! 04-bow
11-19-2014 05:50 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #122
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 05:50 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 05:34 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 04:50 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Wish there was a way to give Bailiff a 3-year stretch where he had improved facilities and a bigger budget for recruiting and assistants/coordinators. Then we'd really know what his achievement ceiling was and my productivity at work would go up.

Well, Rice already set a precedent of not giving WTW the benefit you asked for. Granted, we experienced OO's scenario of hiring another guy who couldn't get the job done either...which then got us to Mike Rhoades...who seems to be different enough and raised expectations that he can get us there...time will tell, but many are excited and many have commented how they bought season tix for MBB for the first time or the first time in years, or are excited to see the team play even though they realize it will be a year or two before things really get going.

Why is that? Well, part of it seems to be the more aggressive attitude and expectations change that Rhoades has set so far with his more open marketing (youtube videos, interviews) about what he is doing different and how the players are responding. Part of it is they want to see a team, even a losing team, play that exciting style of basketball that Rhoades says (and has started showing) he is going to play. That draws fans in. I literally teared up with Rice pride when I first saw the first Rhoades summer SEAL training video. Then I was proud and happy to see both the Head Coach himself, his staff, and the AD, Dr. K also participating right alongside the players. The message: This is a TEAM, boys, and we're all in this together.

Bailiff brings tears to my eyes regularly as well. Not the same tears Rhoades generates, just tears. Sure, I'd like the facilities, and whipped cream and a cherry on top of it all, but more, I want a coach that doesn't need that to get the job done. Kinda a Hoosiers-style guy. get it done anyway. Like some posters have said: take what you got and coach 'em up and scheme 'em up a storm and steal some games you shouldn't and surprise some people. When they zig you zag, etc...

+1000. 04-cheers You're on a roll, GoodOwl-- keep it going! 04-bow

I seem to remember a guy who got it done at Rice w/o facilities, too: Wayne Graham!

NC and the beautiful new facilities followed his winning on a national scale. (thread can now proceed on how football isn't baseball, blah, blah, etc...) I have more faith right now in Rhoades getting it done than Bailiff.

Edit:

I want to apologize for my juvenile Sesame Street comment. I went out to a seminar tonight and all I could think about was how stupid and rude my post was. It ruined the good points I made in the previous post that Walt responded to. I saw the words "You're on a roll" by Walt above and wanted to post something witty before I went out. That was dumb of me. I wish I didn't go off like that. It's a flaw I'm working on. It was stupid and wrong and I apologize to the board. Please forgive me. Thank you. I'm done with the repetition for this season. Go Owls.
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2014 10:00 PM by GoodOwl.)
11-19-2014 06:05 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #123
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 03:43 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Because, as Kargaard has warned us, P-5 membership is much more expensive, which is why most programs lose money despite the grester television revenue. Vanderbilt is being bled white just keeping their head above water in the SEC.

No doubt Vanderbilt wishes the costs of keeping up with their neighbors weren't always and forever rising, sure, but at the end of the day, is there really any serious talk of them dropping out of the SEC or Division I? I certainly haven't heard any. Probably because they view subsidizing their athletic department to whatever level P-5 competitiveness demands (and their endowment is smaller than ours, I might add) as a sound investment in good PR and visibility for their university overall...and what do you know, they're getting a nice ROI, as they've now moved ahead of Rice in the USNWR rankings, probably never to be caught again.

(11-19-2014 04:45 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 04:33 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(11-18-2014 09:40 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  We have been arguing about Bailiff's merits since 2007.
To which I gave a new analogy I had never seen posted here before: If Bailiff was a girl you'd been dating since 2007, and in 2014 with her 'performance' you still couldn't pull the trigger and marry her, even though she wanted to be with you "forever" and even though you wanted to marry someone in your life, that would tell you that she just wasn't the right one for you even though she had some qualities you liked.

At the risk of getting into pointless analogy hyperanalysis, I'd say that unless you're one of the folks who could actually affect the situation (by signing some bigtime checks to help finance the multidimensional upgrade that I believe we all would like to see Rice athletics receive), a better analogy might be that Bailiff is not your girlfriend, but rather the girlfriend of one of your best friends. And you think (strongly) that he could do a lot better. But he doesn't seem willing to make that change ... for reasons that you don't know or understand.

(11-19-2014 05:07 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Maybe the boyfriend loves her for being low-maintenance and happy to be with him even if they are strapped for cash and living in a trailerhome. Maybe the previous girlfriend ran off with a rich dude after less than a year.

Except the boyfriend isn't really strapped for cash. He just refuses to spend more of what he has.

We can tinker with new coaches, new schemes, and other half measures until the cows come home - none of it will make a bit of difference without drastically increased institutional support.
11-19-2014 07:14 PM
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westsidewolf1989 Offline
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Post: #124
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 05:07 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  We can tinker with new coaches, new schemes, and other half measures until the cows come home - none of it will make a bit of difference without drastically increased institutional support.

Which is where Bobby Tudor comes in...
11-19-2014 07:17 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #125
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
Misquoted.
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2014 07:25 PM by Frizzy Owl.)
11-19-2014 07:23 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #126
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.
11-19-2014 07:44 PM
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Post: #127
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 07:44 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.

The BOT has made a lot of positive moves in recent years.

Your words betray an unwarranted sense of entitlement.
11-19-2014 08:11 PM
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Philoso-Owl Offline
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Post: #128
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-17-2014 10:54 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Bailiff is the only coach I have ever heard call OOC games "preseason games"...and I'm growing tired of his continued refrain (repeated at today's presser) that we've got to be better prepared...to execute better...to cut down on mistakes...and to play 4 quarters....and it's on him...and then we proceed to make the exact same mistakes game after game after game.

+1. Time after time after time, against tough opponents, Bailiff's teams turtle and get their butts kicked.

(11-17-2014 11:50 PM)Lumberjack99 Wrote:  Is interesting how some folks are satisfied with six wins and bowl eligibility. These are the same folks that think Northwestern beating ND was not possible or LA Monroe taking T AM down to the wire was a fluke.
(11-18-2014 08:32 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  La-Monroe pressing A&M was a fluke. Play that game 100 times and A&M wins 95 to 99, and wins handily 70 to 85 times. La Monroe deserves to be commended no doubt, but that meets my definition of a fluke.

It's unlikely, but we need to be putting ourselves in a position to win a non-conference game against a prestige opponent every single time we play them, and then we might win one.

(11-18-2014 09:16 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Right now, I don't think David Bailiff can get Rice football to top-25/P-5 status. Number one, I'm not sure anyone can. Number two, I acknowledge that he has made great strides, but his strides have come almost entirely from upgrading the talent through better recruiting. I just don't think there's much more hay to be baled in that field. Other than Stanford and Notre Dame, who have unique advantages peculiar to themselves, the P-5 private universities pretty much plateau out at recruiting only a short distance above us, and even they have advantages over us since we're not P-5. We've gone about as far as we can getting better players, to move up further we have to do a better job of getting the players we have to play better. We need to maintain the talent level we have now, or slightly better (and only slightly seems to be the maximum realistic possibility), and get that talent to overachieve. I don't see any other realistic way to break out significantly above where we are now, and I don't see that being something that David Bailiff can do.

I'm willing to be proved wrong in that assessment, and as long as Bailiff can maintain at or above the current level, I'm willing to give him more time to get it done... There's nobody who's obviously better knocking at our door, and maybe it is an intelligent strategy to hold on and solidify what we have right now before trying to find the person who can lead us to the next level.

I agree with everything but the bolded parts.

Bailiff has proven over 8 years that he cannot get this team to perform at the highest levels of which they are athletically capable, and that he cannot take the program beyond being in a G5 title fight in his very best years. We need someone who can get the program to be in a G5 title fight every single year, finish in the top half of FBS every single year, Finish in the top 25 in the best years, play prestige non-conference opponents well (and close) every single time, and rise up and beat them in the best performances.

I am certain Bailiff is not that guy. Hanging on to him is delaying the inevitable. I'd take someone with a 2% chance of being that guy over Bailiff, because I'm more than 98% sure it isn't DB. This isn't our guy. This guy has had 8 years and hasn't approached the level the program should expect of itself even once. [Insert your favorite prestige coach in the history of college football] isn't going to come walking up to us. Whoever we get is going to be a risk where we're not sure if he's that guy or if he's right in this way or another. But we already know that it's not DB, so we need to start moving on and taking those risks now.

I don't know if Muschamp is that guy, and I have some serious concerns about whether or not he has a real commitment to academics, which is a must-have for me. But I'd try it out over Bailiff now.
11-21-2014 04:14 PM
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elf owl Offline
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Post: #129
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 07:44 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.

Oh no. Not Tulane. We won't be that high.
11-21-2014 04:18 PM
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Philoso-Owl Offline
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Post: #130
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I object to using opinions as fact when making the case to fire. He doesn't develop players. he has no fire in the belly. he doesn't prepare, he isn't driven, he is too loyal, he is too nice, he doesn't show emotion on the sidelines, yada, yada, yada. He can't get us there, and we aren't even in agreement on where there is.

Obviously, these things are not facts that are available to us in the same way the facts of physics and biology are, obvious and simply there to be measured. They involve some judgment. But we've had nearly 8 years to consider the evidence and make our judgment. Do you think the most reasonable judgment is that Bailiff is a high-intensity, super-prepared, driven football coach who puts his guys in the best position possible to win and drives them? Do you think he can get us to improve substantially over where we are now? I see no evidence for those claims, and lots of evidence against them. That's a reasonable and reasoned judgment.

(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Fire the guy, if you want. But if the next guy runs plays you don't like, or talks coachspeak in pressers, or keeps his cool on the sideline, better jump on him too. Otherwise this was all just personal, as I suspect a lot of it is. A lot of people don't like bailiff because...well, he followed the Saint Todd with a losing season, initiated by an embarrassing loss to NickSt. A lot of people wanted him gone right then, including me. Some still do.

Oh I will, 100%. I got here after Nichols State. I've interacted with Bailiff a few times. I quite like the man. I wish he could be the football coach that can succeed here at the level we should all demand. But there's just not much evidence he is, and lots of evidence he isn't.
11-21-2014 04:28 PM
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davidw Offline
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Post: #131
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
Don't think there's a coach out there who could do the job you guys are expecting, given our budget/facilities/recruiting/yada yada yada. The best we had before Bailiff was Goldsmith/Hatfield, who could only muster a couple winning seasons.
11-21-2014 06:58 PM
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elf owl Offline
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Post: #132
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-19-2014 07:44 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.

Oh no. Not Tulane. We won't be that high.
11-21-2014 08:21 PM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #133
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-21-2014 08:21 PM)elf owl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 07:44 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.

Oh no. Not Tulane. We won't be that high.

Case Western?
11-21-2014 11:59 PM
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baker-'13 Offline
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Post: #134
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-21-2014 11:59 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(11-21-2014 08:21 PM)elf owl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 07:44 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  And meanwhile, as the BOT waits year after year for another Bobby Tudor or Phil Knight to magically drop out of the sky, the apathy and negative PR engendered by years of slumming it with the likes of Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee will eventually take their toll and we will become, basically, Tulane. Enjoy.

Oh no. Not Tulane. We won't be that high.

Case Western?

Nah; I doubt we'd be as good as the Browns.

h/t Dr. Frank Ryan.
11-22-2014 12:05 AM
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FresnoTXOwl Offline
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Post: #135
note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-21-2014 04:28 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I object to using opinions as fact when making the case to fire. He doesn't develop players. he has no fire in the belly. he doesn't prepare, he isn't driven, he is too loyal, he is too nice, he doesn't show emotion on the sidelines, yada, yada, yada. He can't get us there, and we aren't even in agreement on where there is.

Obviously, these things are not facts that are available to us in the same way the facts of physics and biology are, obvious and simply there to be measured. They involve some judgment. But we've had nearly 8 years to consider the evidence and make our judgment. Do you think the most reasonable judgment is that Bailiff is a high-intensity, super-prepared, driven football coach who puts his guys in the best position possible to win and drives them? Do you think he can get us to improve substantially over where we are now? I see no evidence for those claims, and lots of evidence against them. That's a reasonable and reasoned judgment.

(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Fire the guy, if you want. But if the next guy runs plays you don't like, or talks coachspeak in pressers, or keeps his cool on the sideline, better jump on him too. Otherwise this was all just personal, as I suspect a lot of it is. A lot of people don't like bailiff because...well, he followed the Saint Todd with a losing season, initiated by an embarrassing loss to NickSt. A lot of people wanted him gone right then, including me. Some still do.

Oh I will, 100%. I got here after Nichols State. I've interacted with Bailiff a few times. I quite like the man. I wish he could be the football coach that can succeed here at the level we should all demand. But there's just not much evidence he is, and lots of evidence he isn't.

I think you come from some bizzaro universe in which winning football games is easy and three years of 7-plus wins at Rice is no big deal. Dwell on Bailiff's overall record all you want but nothing about the last 3 years indicates that forcing a change would make any sense at all.
11-22-2014 01:03 AM
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Post: #136
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-22-2014 01:03 AM)FresnoTXOwl Wrote:  
(11-21-2014 04:28 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  
(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I object to using opinions as fact when making the case to fire. He doesn't develop players. he has no fire in the belly. he doesn't prepare, he isn't driven, he is too loyal, he is too nice, he doesn't show emotion on the sidelines, yada, yada, yada. He can't get us there, and we aren't even in agreement on where there is.

Obviously, these things are not facts that are available to us in the same way the facts of physics and biology are, obvious and simply there to be measured. They involve some judgment. But we've had nearly 8 years to consider the evidence and make our judgment. Do you think the most reasonable judgment is that Bailiff is a high-intensity, super-prepared, driven football coach who puts his guys in the best position possible to win and drives them? Do you think he can get us to improve substantially over where we are now? I see no evidence for those claims, and lots of evidence against them. That's a reasonable and reasoned judgment.

(11-19-2014 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Fire the guy, if you want. But if the next guy runs plays you don't like, or talks coachspeak in pressers, or keeps his cool on the sideline, better jump on him too. Otherwise this was all just personal, as I suspect a lot of it is. A lot of people don't like bailiff because...well, he followed the Saint Todd with a losing season, initiated by an embarrassing loss to NickSt. A lot of people wanted him gone right then, including me. Some still do.

Oh I will, 100%. I got here after Nichols State. I've interacted with Bailiff a few times. I quite like the man. I wish he could be the football coach that can succeed here at the level we should all demand. But there's just not much evidence he is, and lots of evidence he isn't.

I think you come from some bizzaro universe in which winning football games is easy and three years of 7-plus wins at Rice is no big deal. Dwell on Bailiff's overall record all you want but nothing about the last 3 years indicates that forcing a change would make any sense at all.

Let's give Phil a break. Apparently he fell in with the wrong crowd when he got here. Maybe we can send a social worker over. But at least he has promised to judge all future coaches by the same standards he judges Bailiff, and I think he is alone in that.

There are many paths to becoming a big fish in a big pond. One of them is to become a big fish in a small pond first, like TCU. We seem to be on the way to becoming a big fish in a small pond. Clearly, slower than we would like.

Most of us would prefer the quick fix. But one big season won't do that for us. One undefeated season, like Marshall's is currently, or Hawaii and Tulane had, is not going to turn heads. Maybe 53-3 over 4 consecutive seasons will. Or maybe not.
11-22-2014 09:31 AM
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Post: #137
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-21-2014 06:58 PM)davidw Wrote:  Don't think there's a coach out there who could do the job you guys are expecting, given our budget/facilities/recruiting/yada yada yada. The best we had before Bailiff was Goldsmith/Hatfield, who could only muster a couple winning seasons.

That is a pretty small sample size.

If you expand your view to all G-5 schools that pay head coaches $500k per year or less and have total football budgets equivalent to Rice, you can make a fairly long list of coaches who have performed dramatically better than Bailiff

I did an analysis of the G-5 coaches Bailiff has faced in his career a few weeks ago. will find the link and put it here.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-706862-post-112...id11238201

6 of the 21 non P5 coaches that Bailff had coached against as of end of 2013 have been promoted to P5. None of those had decisive advantages in institutional resource commitment compared to Rice.

The schools were Tulsa, La Tech, Southern Miss, and UH (pre new stadium).
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2014 10:14 AM by MemOwl.)
11-22-2014 10:01 AM
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Post: #138
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
(11-22-2014 10:01 AM)MemOwl Wrote:  
(11-21-2014 06:58 PM)davidw Wrote:  Don't think there's a coach out there who could do the job you guys are expecting, given our budget/facilities/recruiting/yada yada yada. The best we had before Bailiff was Goldsmith/Hatfield, who could only muster a couple winning seasons.

That is a pretty small sample size.

If you expand your view to all G-5 schools that pay head coaches $500k per year or less and have total football budgets equivalent to Rice, you can make a fairly long list of coaches who have performed dramatically better than Bailiff

I did an analysis of the G-5 coaches Bailiff has faced in his career a few weeks ago. will find the link and put it here.

So who do you want to hire that will take us to the next level?
11-22-2014 10:12 AM
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Post: #139
RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
I wanted to wait until we beat UTEP to post this.

Bailiff has now produced 3 straight winning seasons. That is seen by just about everybody outside of Rice as an extraordinary accomplishment. I don't think it's far-fetched at all to to think that he might get offers or at least feelers from bigger schools. Yes, his overall record is unimpressive, but I think most people who aren't Rice fans will blame his first few years on his predecessor, Rice itself, or both. And a lot of schools across the nation want a coach who can recruit Texas.

There are G5 coaches with more cachet right now, but not many of them.

I'm not saying it will happen, just that it's not inconceivable. Maybe 25% chance. If he has another winning record next year, it becomes much more likely.

I have no idea whether he would take such an offer. I wouldn't blame him if he did.

Even if he leaves, I don't think Muschamp is our guy.
11-22-2014 10:55 AM
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goherd24herdfans Offline
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RE: note to Dr. K: Will Muschamp now available end of this season HFC
Wow. Bailiff is a good coach... how spoiled have rice fans become? You win cusa for the first time, and now get 7 wins, maybe 8, losing some good talent and you call for bailiffs head? No offense, but reality, its a tough sell to get a kid to want to play at Rice, where baseball is the sport, let alone the academic hurdles one must leap, and lack of fan support recruits see in the stadium.

Florida would have traded you coaches in a snap of a finger if they could. And you would have gotten the short end of the stick. Be careful what you wish for, because you just might never see a coaching staff like this one again. Temper your expectations. With a coach like Bailiff, if you ever pickup top talent at a few positions, he will maximize that talent and you could end up having a very special year.
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2014 11:03 AM by goherd24herdfans.)
11-22-2014 11:02 AM
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