Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
BigTribe Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 308
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 2
I Root For: William & Mary
Location:
Post: #1
UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
The incredibly outrageous travesty of the prostituting of a great school's
academic standing to further sports currently getting worse every day at UNC is the worst I have every seen in college athletics.

It dwarfs any other scandal in NCAA history...by miles!

Hundreds of athletes are involved in this stunning scheme and more than
twelve hundred students total over an incredible fourteen+ years!

The ridiculous story being put out is that, over fourteen years, the coaches knew nothing of it. My friends, Roy Williams (like all coaches)
knows when one of his players has a hangnail!

UNC, a Public Ivy like William & Mary, cannot wait...in my opinion...wait for the NCAA to act (in my opinion the NCAA will not do much to UNC..it
is weak and controlled by the major athletic schools like UNC).

If I were the president and board of North Carolina I would immediately suspend football and basketball for at least two full seasons, launch an
internal investigation of all coaches and, finally, forfeit every basketball and football game over those years along with any titles won, and rescind any degrees earned by the students involved in this fraud.

Just imagine (although it never could happen) if this occurred at our William & Mary. We'd be lucky to see the sports survive in any form.
10-24-2014 01:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


ttgwm02 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 689
Joined: Jun 2013
Reputation: 22
I Root For: William and Mar
Location:
Post: #2
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
I would speculate that the scope of the UNC scandal - if all facts were known - would appear insignificant when compared to academic fraud at other institutions.
What makes the UNC internal investigation report so significant is that UNC has a reputation (whether deserved or not) as an elite academic institution.

For all the outrage, we have heard nothing about concrete steps taken by the UNC Board to address the problems. Ultimately, this responsibility lies with the Chancellor of the UNC system. Unfortunately, UNC - far more so than UVA - has a very incestuous relationship with the North Carolina legislature and with wealthy and prominent North Carolinians, and for many of these influential decision makers, the elite status of UNC athletics is as important or more important than the credibility of UNC's academic programs.
10-24-2014 02:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ttgwm02 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 689
Joined: Jun 2013
Reputation: 22
I Root For: William and Mar
Location:
Post: #3
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Check that...UNC published a laundry list of vague, ambiguous or insignificant "actions" it has taken to remedy the problem. EG:

Department of African, African American and Diaspora Studies (AAAD) adds new requirements for major and minor programs, such as the number of courses needed to fulfill the major and minor. The approval process for enrolling in independent studies courses also is tightened.

Provost requires visits to classrooms each semester to confirm classes are being held as scheduled.

The remaining steps are of relatively similar quality.

I work on internal investigations for major corporate clients on a daily basis. A major part of what I do is to coordinate with the relevant regulatory agency to develop a remedial framework for the company to follow. If one of my clients attempted to set forth reforms like this - reforms likely to make no material impact on the problem and clearly designed to pacify public critics - we would not only undermine our credibility with the regulator, we'd be likely to end up under indictment. And if I claimed that I could complete a thorough factual internal investigation in under eight months, and also publish an investigation report in that time frame, I would be guilty of malpractice. UNC had conducted its own internal investigation, but a truly independent investigative team will not only review the client's internal report, but independently review every relevant document, develop a comprehensive understanding of the subject matter, request new documents, and conduct witness interviews of every potentially relevant witness. Even if Weinstein had a team of 5-10 people working on this case exclusively, it would be impossible to complete a thorough investigation of this size in nine months, much less produce a thorough report.
(This post was last modified: 10-24-2014 02:27 PM by ttgwm02.)
10-24-2014 02:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
nj alum Offline
Petulant
*

Posts: 2,380
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 41
I Root For: william & mary
Location:
Post: #4
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Well, since you raised the subject.

I have always admired UNC's willingness to continue to play the Tribe in various sports. I also think that, but for the grace of God, go I. Finally, there are a lot of UNC "innocents" who are involved here ... ie current students and athletes who had nothing to do with this.

On the other hand, schools are banned from post-season play for APR issues ( think UConn), and this is far worse.

IMO, if I was running UNC, I would self-impose the following sanctions, and get this behind the school, and more importantly, the conference:

1) two year post season ban, starting immediately, for all sports.
2) scholarship reductions in all sports that played students who took these classes (and received fraudulent grades) along the lines of the scholarship reductions for Minnesota and Penn State.
3) loss of victories, titles ,etc. for every team that played a student who took these classes (and received fraudulent grades).

There is another issue ... unique to this scandal ... with tremendous PC overtones and ramifications. Only one academic department apparently is involved, and that department is going to have to be sanctioned as well, or else accreditation of the entire university may become an issue. This issue concerning this academic department is a hornets' nest.
10-24-2014 02:12 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ttgwm02 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 689
Joined: Jun 2013
Reputation: 22
I Root For: William and Mar
Location:
Post: #5
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Good point NJ Alum. Although, usually where there is smoke, there is fire. A truly comprehensive investigation would have looked at a broad spectrum of UNC student athletes from every sport over the last 15-20 years and examined every department in some detail.

What we dont know is if the engagement agreement with Weinstein included advice on implementing remedial measures, or if the remedial measures here came from the University itself.

The value of an independent investigation is not only to add credibility, but that the University/company can insulate itself from the political ramifications of remedial steps. If the investigator recommends sanctioning and/or eliminating a department, the University can do so without absorbing all of the responsibility.

Frankly, I think the best things UNC could have done would have been to take more aggressive remedial measures (such as the ones you suggested, along with more detailed and precise policy changes that would have a significant, measurable impact on the problems), and appoint a third-party monitor for a period of 3-5 years to oversee intercollegiate athletic compliance, with the responsibility to publish a reports for the UNC Chancellor, the North Carolina state legislature, and the public on UNC's progress every 3 months.
10-24-2014 02:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


62Indian Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 877
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 12
I Root For: W&M
Location:
Post: #6
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
(10-24-2014 01:55 PM)BigTribe Wrote:  The incredibly outrageous travesty of the prostituting of a great school's
academic standing to further sports currently getting worse every day at UNC is the worst I have every seen in college athletics.

It dwarfs any other scandal in NCAA history...by miles!

Hundreds of athletes are involved in this stunning scheme and more than
twelve hundred students total over an incredible fourteen+ years!

The ridiculous story being put out is that, over fourteen years, the coaches knew nothing of it. My friends, Roy Williams (like all coaches)
knows when one of his players has a hangnail!

UNC, a Public Ivy like William & Mary, cannot wait...in my opinion...wait for the NCAA to act (in my opinion the NCAA will not do much to UNC..it
is weak and controlled by the major athletic schools like UNC).

If I were the president and board of North Carolina I would immediately suspend football and basketball for at least two full seasons, launch an
internal investigation of all coaches and, finally, forfeit every basketball and football game over those years along with any titles won, and rescind any degrees earned by the students involved in this fraud.

Just imagine (although it never could happen) if this occurred at our William & Mary. We'd be lucky to see the sports survive in any form.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry BT, but it DID HAPPEN at W&M. The Academic/Athletic scandal at W&M resulted in the firings and/or forced resignitions of the College President, The Dean of the Faculty, Dean of Men, Dean of Women, Head Football coach, Head Basketball coach, Alumni Director and several faculty members. The scandal came out in 1951 and covered the period from the late 1930s to the 1950s when the College Board of Visitors decided to emphasize football and to compete with "the big boys" - the period we fondly remember as the glory days of W&M Football. . Coaches were "fixing" High School Transcripts to help "student-athletes" get admitted [In those days potential students who were being courted applied to the Athletic Dept who would then pass the applications on to the Admidssions Dept]. The Phys Ed Dept, where all of the coaches "taught" offered the courses that enabled the players to stay elegible. The W&M scandal had pretty much the same elements as the current UNC scandal and for the same reasons.

This scandal was a big deal in Virginia and was still being talked about when I arrived at W&M as a Freshman in the late 1950s
10-24-2014 04:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
zablenoise Online
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,235
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 53
I Root For: William & Mary
Location: Washington, DC
Post: #7
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
I think the '51 scandal still reverberates at the College today. There was a backlash against athletics here for decades. I truly think we would have a bigger and better funded athletic department if it weren't for the scandal and subsequent fallout
10-24-2014 04:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tribe Fan Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 702
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 15
I Root For: William & Mary
Location: Cabo
Post: #8
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Noise you are so very correct and I was going to post the same thoughts.

UNC is a very popular team and many many root for them especially in basketball and I have friends who's children went there because the success of the basketball team and all of its glory . My question is , If this had accourd at U Miami, FSU or such what would be the outcry from the general public ? The accusation of thugs who do not go to class would be ringing in our ears and no thought of the majority of the student athletes who did go to class and earned a degree.
10-24-2014 05:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tribal Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 11,837
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 162
I Root For: William & Mary
Location:
Post: #9
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
That scandal was just in time to get plastered all over the first color television sets in the United States.

#RisingTribe
10-25-2014 07:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


BigTribe Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 308
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 2
I Root For: William & Mary
Location:
Post: #10
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
To equate the W&M transcript scandal of the late 1940s (it did not go on from the late 1930s...
involved 16 players and three years..and no phony classes at all; the classes were legitimate)
to the present UNC horror is wrong.

Today's CNN story on this mushrooming scandal contains the following:

Gerald Gurney, president of the Drake Group for academic integrity in collegiate sport and the former president of the National Association of Academic Advisers for Athletics, called the UNC fraud the largest and most nefarious academic scandal in the history of the NCAA.
"The depth and breadth of the scheme -- involving counselors, coaches, academic administrators, faculty, athletic administrators, etc. -- eclipses any previous case," Gurney said.
10-26-2014 06:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
62Indian Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 877
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 12
I Root For: W&M
Location:
Post: #11
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
(10-26-2014 06:09 AM)BigTribe Wrote:  To equate the W&M transcript scandal of the late 1940s (it did not go on from the late 1930s...
involved 16 players and three years..and no phony classes at all; the classes were legitimate)
to the present UNC horror is wrong.

Today's CNN story on this mushrooming scandal contains the following:

Gerald Gurney, president of the Drake Group for academic integrity in collegiate sport and the former president of the National Association of Academic Advisers for Athletics, called the UNC fraud the largest and most nefarious academic scandal in the history of the NCAA.
"The depth and breadth of the scheme -- involving counselors, coaches, academic administrators, faculty, athletic administrators, etc. -- eclipses any previous case," Gurney said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest Big Tribe check the internet for a 2007 publication of The Journal of Sports History. This contains a comprehensive and thorough study [by a Penn State guy, of all places] of the W&M Athletic scandal [which did have its origins in the late 1930s] as well as Independent Study classes that never met and phony grades posted for athletes in legitimate classes. It is very interesting reading.

In the 1930s W&M was a fourth rate Cow College with only 700 male students and a large number of women flocking to W&M to get certified as teachers. The BOV wanted to raise the profile and reputation of W&M [partly as a way to enhance it's reputation for "manleness"]. The BOV decided to do this by emphasising football and men's basketball so that W&M could compete with the "Big Boys" on a National scale.
10-26-2014 09:05 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
SoCal Frank Offline
Jersey Retired
Jersey Retired

Posts: 1,131
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 2
I Root For: Wm and Mary
Location:
Post: #12
UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Good stuff wrt wm and Mary academic scandal. In an auto bio of all time great at Penn. his brother was a 16 year old high school dropout, married with children who decided he wanted to play college ball. Where? At Wm and Mary. With distinction. There are still people at homecoming who knew these guys, played with them etc. I talked with one last week.
With regards to UNC why not call a spade a spade? Depts of African American studies are a fraud.
10-26-2014 11:01 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
soccerguy315 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,021
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 17
I Root For: William & Mary
Location:
Post: #13
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
I'm sure non-existent classes (or classes where your "tutor" writes your papers) are fairly common at schools with top athletics
10-26-2014 10:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


TribeNiner Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,725
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 106
I Root For: Niners/WM/Hoyas
Location: Richmond, VA
Post: #14
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Here's the thing, this whole academic side of things is most likely the worst in NCAA history. But nobody is talking about the fact that they were paying players; boosters were providing cars to the players; their alums in the NFL were throwing lavish parties out of state for their current players (notably in Miami) while buying them diamond jewelry, etc.; a person on the staff was paying for thousands of dollars in fines for playersso they wouldn't get busted; they had an agent/runner on the staff.... The list goes on and on.

I don't see how they continue to skate by without any real punishment. It is at least in the running for, if not THE, worst scandal of all time. The scheme has been running for over 2 decades. This is what it's like to be a money program. If W&M had done something of this nature, we'd already have been issued the death penalty. How can you have such incriminating emails (for example, see here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0kfcRcCAAAHAlU.png:large) and presentations given to/by the Athletic Department that are so bad (see here: http://static4.businessinsider.com/image...lide-1.jpg) without incurring any real punishment? Does anyone here doubt that UNC-CH's athletic success would be greatly diminished if they weren't paying recruits/players, had to worry about keeping them eligible, and didn't have post-season eligibility?

If the NCAA wants to grasp at any remaining credibility they will bring the hammer down hard.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2014 12:24 PM by TribeNiner.)
10-27-2014 12:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
nogretheogre Offline
Lord of Bots & Tots
*

Posts: 2,516
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 46
I Root For: William & Mary
Location:
Post: #15
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
Interesting that the UNC scandal includes a new CAA coach...question whether anything will come of this...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-aca...?hpt=hp_t2

"McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people ... potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like ... the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.
Withers is now a coach at James Madison University..."
11-09-2014 08:40 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
tribe_pride Online
1st String
*

Posts: 1,383
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 20
I Root For: W&M
Location:
Post: #16
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
(11-09-2014 08:40 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Interesting that the UNC scandal includes a new CAA coach...question whether anything will come of this...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-aca...?hpt=hp_t2

"McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people ... potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like ... the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.
Withers is now a coach at James Madison University..."


A few weeks ago, he denied the allegations that he refused to cooperate. Pretty weak journalism on CNN's part to put that Withers refused to cooperate as part of the report but did not include his denial that was noted in a number of news sources a few weeks ago.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/coll...71509.html

http://www.tarheeltimes.com/article60629.aspx

http://augustafreepress.com/jmu-football...stigation/
11-09-2014 09:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TribeNomad Online
1st String
*

Posts: 1,147
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 11
I Root For: W&M Tribe
Location: Richmond
Post: #17
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
One might argue that placing "journalism' and "CNN" in the same sentence is an issue.
11-09-2014 09:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


wanm65 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 783
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 2
I Root For: W&M
Location: NOVA
Post: #18
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
(11-09-2014 09:37 AM)tribe_pride Wrote:  
(11-09-2014 08:40 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Interesting that the UNC scandal includes a new CAA coach...question whether anything will come of this...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-aca...?hpt=hp_t2

"McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people ... potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like ... the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.
Withers is now a coach at James Madison University..."


A few weeks ago, he denied the allegations that he refused to cooperate. Pretty weak journalism on CNN's part to put that Withers refused to cooperate as part of the report but did not include his denial that was noted in a number of news sources a few weeks ago.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/coll...71509.html

http://www.tarheeltimes.com/article60629.aspx

http://augustafreepress.com/jmu-football...stigation/

This is the same Withers that told the JMU QB transferring one thing and then changed the deal without telling the kid or his family. He also refused to honor two offers that JMU made to kids planning on going to JMU.
11-09-2014 09:44 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
tribe_pride Online
1st String
*

Posts: 1,383
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 20
I Root For: W&M
Location:
Post: #19
RE: UNC Academic/Athletics Crisis--One Opinion
(11-09-2014 09:44 AM)wanm65 Wrote:  
(11-09-2014 09:37 AM)tribe_pride Wrote:  
(11-09-2014 08:40 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Interesting that the UNC scandal includes a new CAA coach...question whether anything will come of this...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/us/unc-aca...?hpt=hp_t2

"McAdoo's lawyers will be able to depose people ... potentially key participants whom Wainstein called out for refusing to cooperate, like ... the former interim head football coach Everett Withers.
Withers is now a coach at James Madison University..."


A few weeks ago, he denied the allegations that he refused to cooperate. Pretty weak journalism on CNN's part to put that Withers refused to cooperate as part of the report but did not include his denial that was noted in a number of news sources a few weeks ago.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/coll...71509.html

http://www.tarheeltimes.com/article60629.aspx

http://augustafreepress.com/jmu-football...stigation/

This is the same Withers that told the JMU QB transferring one thing and then changed the deal without telling the kid or his family. He also refused to honor two offers that JMU made to kids planning on going to JMU.

Never said what is true but if a newssource is going to accuse someone of not doing something, they should at least try to get a comment from them (especially if it is publicly available by Google and the Richmond Times had already printed it).

And right or wrong, unfortunately, the refusing to honor some scholarships is not that uncommon when a new football coach comes in.
11-09-2014 10:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.