It is not widely known, although I have seen it documented in several different places, but the Penn program was in such dire straits that there were fears it would go under at the time they hired Berndt. In order to prevent that, the Ivy League decided to give them a number of admissions exceptions. So while at Penn, Jerry was able to recruit people that the other Ivies couldn't. Obviously, when he got to Rice, the shoe was totally on the other foot. With a level playing field, I don't think he was as good as his record at Penn or as bad as his record at Rice.

(10-22-2014 03:14 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 01:18 PM)JSA Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 11:56 AM)07owl Wrote:  He still has a losing record at Rice, which is probably a tough sell...hopefully that will change next year

Temple hired Jerry Berndt.

The reality is he did a really good job at Penn (that's why we hired him) after landing the job my senior year there. After growing up watching SWC football, watching Penn's brand of Ivy League FB was horrific-we won 4 games in 4 years. Stratford's 78 Texas high school team would have assaulted the Quakers.

But he was clearly out of his element at Rice.

But those plaid pull over sweaters sure looked great on the sidelines didn't they.

(10-22-2014 11:56 AM)07owl Wrote:  He still has a losing record at Rice, which is probably a tough sell...hopefully that will change next year

So far, he is 43-51. If we win out with a bowl, which seems improbable at this point, he'll be 50-51 by the end of the year. And he has never produced that signature victory over a highly ranked team.

i believe he is limited as a coach. We often look awful when he runs up against teams with equal and sometimes even inferior physical talent. And we have fallen so far in the level of team we play (not his fault of course!), that our recent success seems hollow. My sense is that he, his staff and players are very comfortable even when the results on the field fail to meet expectations. Graham, for all his faults, never gives that impression and has continued to rise.

I don't think SMU would go for DB, as their history is to shoot high. Kansas plays with the big boys now and will probably be looking for that experience. So, for the foreseeable future, he will be our HC, which means some good, some bad and he will never rock the boat.

(10-22-2014 04:54 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 11:56 AM)07owl Wrote:  He still has a losing record at Rice, which is probably a tough sell...hopefully that will change next year

So far, he is 43-51. If we win out with a bowl, which seems improbable at this point, he'll be 50-51 by the end of the year. And he has never produced that signature victory over a highly ranked team.

i believe he is limited as a coach. We often look awful when he runs up against teams with equal and sometimes even inferior physical talent. And we have fallen so far in the level of team we play (not his fault of course!), that our recent success seems hollow. My sense is that he, his staff and players are very comfortable even when the results on the field fail to meet expectations. Graham, for all his faults, never gives that impression and has continued to rise.

I don't think SMU would go for DB, as their history is to shoot high. Kansas plays with the big boys now and will probably be looking for that experience. So, for the foreseeable future, he will be our HC, which means some good, some bad and he will never rock the boat.

I have for a long time doubted that he has the ability, or the energy, to take this team to the next level. His "improved" record is to a large degree a dumbing down so to speak of the competition. Think what records Hatfield would have had against the conference schedule we have now. Anyhow, from what I have read on the board, few people, if any, are happy with our current situation, i.,e., our conference.

Kansas' or SMU's loss could be our gain. And with JK as the AD, I feel confident that he would get us a good replacement.

I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.

But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.

But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

But if he lays into his players on the sideline, at least we won't have to hear about how he doesn't care about winning.

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.
But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

I would expect that with a new coach we would see an uptick in performance in the short run. I think there are many coaches out there who would be better at getting the players we have to play better. That has been Bailiff's weakness.

On the other hand, getting better players has been Bailiff's strength. Long term, I don't know if another coach would be able to sustain the recruiting upgrades that Bailiff has made. If it's somebody with strong ties to the Texas HS coaching fraternity, maybe.

But I think a coaching change at this point might very well give many of us an answer to the old question about which is more important--recruiting or coaching.

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.

But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

Using that logic, we should have been calling for Graham's ouster in the mid 90s, and the woman's tennis coach. I think the posters on the board only gripe when they perceive dismal performance, or in this case, one step forward, two steps back.

I

(10-22-2014 09:18 PM)Ranger Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.

But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

Using that logic, we should have been calling for Graham's ouster in the mid 90s, and the woman's tennis coach. I think the posters on the board only gripe when they perceive dismal performance, or in this case, one step forward, two steps back.

I

If we are in the third year and there are no complaints, I will apologize.

But I think I won't have to.

(10-22-2014 01:47 PM)07owl Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 01:27 PM)Mademen Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 11:56 AM)07owl Wrote:  He still has a losing record at Rice, which is probably a tough sell...hopefully that will change next year

Todd Graham got the Tulsa job off one 7-6 season at Rice and the Arizona State job off one 6-6 season at Pitt.

One 7-6 season at Rice was quite the accomplishment at the time.

PFFt - - it wasn't the 7-6, it was the perception of a turnaround, the fact that he ran the program more like a 'big-time' program (run players and staff off as necessary, focus on winning), than Rice had been run in years. The six win improvement seemed dramatic.

The 1994, 1996, 1997 and 2001 teams were better, and had better wins on their resume, the latter three winning against better teams and at a higher percentage. For that matter the 1998 and 2013 teams were better, and 2012 was as good (and won a bowl game against a much better opponent than the 2006 team lost to).

What Graham got credit for, was changing the attitude and approach to Rice football, AND for being able to grab a bowl bid in a conference that had more bowl opportunities than the WAC. I am thankful for those things, but it was certainly a needed victory of style over substance.

It was perceived as a great turnaround, and compared to 2005 it was (and he deserves credit for what he did accomplish). But his key players were recruited by Hatfield, and I'm not sure who he recruited that Bailiff counted on in 2008, or who we can look back on now and say "look at the game changer that Graham recruited." (I'm sure he did bring some worthwhile players in, but not at a level we would recognize (compared to the NFL players we're graduating now).

If we're getting blown out in a bowl game, I'd rather it were to Mississippi State in Memphis post-Christmas, after winning a conference championship, than Troy State in the RL Carriers Bowl.

Don't get me wrong, Graham has won several places and is a hot commodity.

But a miracle worker at Rice? Give him his due, but he was in the right place at the right time (and to his credit took advantage, to our advantage), and is better at promoting himself than most coaches we've hired at Rice.

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.
But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

I've always said I'd never try to hang on to a coach who got a better offer. That's a philosophical matter with me, consistent with the way I ran my business, and has nothing to do with any particular individual.

As for the third year thing, keep in mind that in Bailiff's third year we were going 2-10 and getting absolutely smoked by the likes of UAB, Navy, East Carolina, UCF, and UH. I would expect lots of complaints about any coach in the midst of that.

I do think Bailiff has taken Rice as far as he can. He has shown the ability to get better players, but getting the players he has to play better has not been his strong point. I think we've upgraded recruiting about as far as we can, and I don't see us getting a lot more out of that.

Bottom line--I'm fine with him staying, I'm fine with him going.

(10-22-2014 02:52 PM)texd Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 02:30 PM)Pimpa Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 12:04 PM)texd Wrote:  Kansas I could see. SMU though?

My thoughts exactly. SMU may very well be interested in DB, the question is why do some believe he is a credible candidate for SMU? If I had to guess, I would think that DB gets mentioned as a possible SMU candidate because: 1) SMU, at least with Jones, will pay its head coaches, and the belief is that SMU will pay DB more than Rice; and 2) fair or not, there are some pundits who believe that the AAC is a better conference than CUSA (better teams, national appeal, bigger names), so why wouldn't DB want to step up? Remember, the former Big East did send a team to the BCS last year (as part of the expiring BCS deal), and the perception by some, whether warranted or not, is that the AAC is juuuuuust outside the P5 conferences. I definitely don't agree with it, but it is a storyline that is out there and apparently being furthered by the author of that article.

The thing is, DB does not have the same cachet as JJ had at the time of his hiring. There will be no SMU money men lining up to put up even $1MM for DB, much less JJ numbers. They're gonna want young up-and-comer. A .500ish record coach at a lower tier conference and FCS school isn't going to blow their skirts up.

Not to ignore the Todd Graham argument from Mademen further up ITT, Tulsa was taking TG based on his performance at Tulsa combined with the fact that he didn't completely **** the bed at Rice. I suspect he would have been high on their list with a 5-7 or 4-8 season. And ASU hired him after 6-6 at Pitt, but with a 49-29 overall HC record and only one losing season (5-7 at that) out of 6 seasons as HC.

And 07owl, 7-6 was pretty good that season, given how it started, but that was not at all unusual for teams of that era.

Agree with the reasoning on Graham's hire at Tulsa completely. If he had stayed here and struggled, his career arc would've been different. In fact, I don't think he's the kind of coach who could work through down seasons and turn things around (i.e., I don't honestly believe he can recruit as well as Bailiff or can develop character as well. He benefits from successively moving up the ladder to schools where it is easier to recruit).

He has proven to be a good coach, and obviously knows how to manage his career to accentuate his strengths.

Anyone want him back here though?

Bailiff isn't going anywhere until he retires. At Rice, there are realistic expectations. Be competitive and graduate athletes.

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.

But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

or we could hire someone like we hired to replace Willis . . . . .

(10-22-2014 10:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Bottom line--I'm fine with him staying, I'm fine with him going.

I'm OK with that. But I think it is unlikely that the next guy will our Dream Coach.

(10-22-2014 10:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 07:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I hope that DB gets offers, and if he likes them, I hope he takes them. Rice and DB splitting up would be a win for him and a win for more than half the parliament. Time will tell if it is a win for Rice.
But I predict, with confidence, in the third year of a new coach, we will be back to complaining about him, his results, his methods, and that damn fool who hired him. Nature of the beast.

I've always said I'd never try to hang on to a coach who got a better offer. That's a philosophical matter with me, consistent with the way I ran my business, and has nothing to do with any particular individual.

As for the third year thing, keep in mind that in Bailiff's third year we were going 2-10 and getting absolutely smoked by the likes of UAB, Navy, East Carolina, UCF, and UH. I would expect lots of complaints about any coach in the midst of that.

I do think Bailiff has taken Rice as far as he can. He has shown the ability to get better players, but getting the players he has to play better has not been his strong point. I think we've upgraded recruiting about as far as we can, and I don't see us getting a lot more out of that.

Bottom line--I'm fine with him staying, I'm fine with him going.

Out of curiousity . . . if Bailiff gets us to a bowl for the 3rd time in as many years (I won't speculate about how we finish this year, too early), and if as on another thread others seem to believe, that we are primed to do better next year . . . . .

do you really think it not possible that our recruiting will continue to improve?

Granted, those are 'ifs', but our database on how Rice recruits following successive seasons with bowl invitations is frankly pretty lean over the last 50 years . . . . . . .

(10-22-2014 10:53 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  ... I'm not sure who he recruited that Bailiff counted on in 2008, or who we can look back on now and say "look at the game changer that Graham recruited." (I'm sure he did bring some worthwhile players in, but not at a level we would recognize (compared to the NFL players we're graduating now).

Andrew Sendejo?

(10-22-2014 11:41 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 10:53 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  ... I'm not sure who he recruited that Bailiff counted on in 2008, or who we can look back on now and say "look at the game changer that Graham recruited." (I'm sure he did bring some worthwhile players in, but not at a level we would recognize (compared to the NFL players we're graduating now).

Andrew Sendejo?

And some guy named James Casey committed to TG.

Graham never had a full recruiting season at Rice, so hard to compare him to Bailiff. It's also why stating that Bailiff is the best recruiter since Goldsmith means next to nothing, since that only really means he recruited better than Hatfield.

(10-22-2014 11:41 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 10:53 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  ... I'm not sure who he recruited that Bailiff counted on in 2008, or who we can look back on now and say "look at the game changer that Graham recruited." (I'm sure he did bring some worthwhile players in, but not at a level we would recognize (compared to the NFL players we're graduating now).

Andrew Sendejo?

A good one, and assume your question mark was meant to ask if I considered him a good recruit, and not wondering whether Graham recruited him (I don't know the answer to the latter). So, assuming you know he was recruited by Graham, that's one.

My perception is that we've been recruiting better over the last 5 years or so. That probably can be proven one way or the other.

My perception that Graham would not have held up well here at Rice over the long haul, admittedly can't be proven out way or the other. From what we saw, I'd expect that (1) it wouldn't have played well for long for him here, and (2) if he hadn't left after year 1, he certainly would've been gone the very next chance he would've had to bolt, probably after year 2.

Again #1 cannot be proven, but #2,( given his continued hopping) is a pretty good bet

(10-22-2014 11:55 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 11:41 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-22-2014 10:53 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  ... I'm not sure who he recruited that Bailiff counted on in 2008, or who we can look back on now and say "look at the game changer that Graham recruited." (I'm sure he did bring some worthwhile players in, but not at a level we would recognize (compared to the NFL players we're graduating now).

Andrew Sendejo?

And some guy named James Casey committed to TG.

Graham never had a full recruiting season at Rice, so hard to compare him to Bailiff. It's also why stating that Bailiff is the best recruiter since Goldsmith means next to nothing, since that only really means he recruited better than Hatfield.

difficult to compare recruiting. I think our recruiting took hits at several points:

* breakup of the SWC
* breakup of the WAC 16 into the WAC and MWC
* changes in recruiting requirements (more restrictive rules put in place by Rice)
* having 7-4, 7-4 and 8-4 teams not get bowl bids
* TCU leaving the WAC to rejoin Houston

officially, when did Casey sign his letter of intent?