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BcatMatt13 Offline
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Post: #1
Kennedy Assassination
Anyone here believe in any conspiracy theories?
09-26-2014 10:30 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Kennedy Assassination
I see too many holes to find the Warren Commission report believable, but don't really have a favorite theory to replace it.
09-26-2014 01:21 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Kennedy Assassination
One thing about the Kennedy assassination is that it cemented his place next to Lincoln in American history. Had he not been assassinated, he would not have been so revered.
09-26-2014 02:51 PM
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Native Georgian Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-26-2014 10:30 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Anyone here believe in any conspiracy theories?
Not me. I think Oswald was a deeply unstable personality who was incapable of acting in concert or as part of a plot.

I do think the so-called "Mortal Error" hypothesis deserves some closer scrutiny. Which theory holds that a Secret Service Agent was attempting to stand in the car that followed JFK's in the motorcade, and accidentally squeezed the trigger on his AR-15 rifle as he lost his balance when the driver suddenly accelerated in response to Oswald's two shots. Yeah it sounds absolutely crazy. But I think it's possible. (Please note: "possible" does not mean "proven" or "probable").

I first read about that scenario more than 20 years ago and have waited for it to be disproven. It never has been, as far as I can tell. I was intrigued to learn that Bill James, the baseball statistics-guru, has publicly said he thinks it could be true, too.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2014 11:05 PM by Native Georgian.)
09-26-2014 11:05 PM
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Native Georgian Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-26-2014 02:51 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  One thing about the Kennedy assassination is that it cemented his place next to Lincoln in American history. Had he not been assassinated, he would not have been so revered.
Well, some of us (ahem) did not revere Kennedy even after the assassination. But I agree that it did affect the way he was remembered by the public-at-large.

Really, the combined weight of the JFK and RFK assassinations -- and you can sort of include MLK in there, too, since it happened in the same era -- had a profound (and negative) impact on the people of that generation, IMHO.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2014 11:09 PM by Native Georgian.)
09-26-2014 11:08 PM
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jh Offline
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-26-2014 11:05 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  I do think the so-called "Mortal Error" hypothesis deserves some closer scrutiny. Which theory holds that a Secret Service Agent was attempting to stand in the car that followed JFK's in the motorcade, and accidentally squeezed the trigger on his AR-15 rifle as he lost his balance when the driver suddenly accelerated in response to Oswald's two shots. Yeah it sounds absolutely crazy. But I think it's possible. (Please note: "possible" does not mean "proven" or "probable").
I first read about that scenario more than 20 years ago and have waited for it to be disproven. It never has been, as far as I can tell. I was intrigued to learn that Bill James, the baseball statistics-guru, has publicly said he thinks it could be true, too.

I've never paid much attention to alternate explanations, and I understand you only mentioned this as a possibility, but this seems really hard to believe. An off-balance secret service agent accidentally fires his gun and manages to hit the one person he really wasn't supposed to?
09-27-2014 03:10 PM
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Native Georgian Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-27-2014 03:10 PM)jh Wrote:  this seems really hard to believe. An off-balance secret service agent accidentally fires his gun and manages to hit the one person he really wasn't supposed to?
I know, I know. To say the odds against it were a billion to one is probably an exaggeration of the likelihood.

To me, the evidence in support of the theory boils down to this:

1. Several witnesses in Dealey Plaza -- about 20 different people, IIRC -- claimed to have smelled gun-powder at street level in the moments after the shots. Perhaps they were all mistaken, or acting under the power of suggestion (they obviously knew that shots had been fired, but didn't necessarily know where the shots originated). But that's still a lot of people, and they obviously were not smelling anything from the sixth floor of the School Book Depository.

2. From a ballistics standpoint, the bullet that caused Kennedy's head wounds acted very differently than the bullet(s) fired earlier. While fully acknowledging that this is not an exact science, it still remains the the case that the "head shot" bullet impacted Kennedy's head differently than what a Carcano bullet might be typically expected to do, if fired from that distance (6th floor of the Depository). Yet it impacted Kennedy's head Exactly as a bullet from an AR-15 might be typically expected to do, if fired from the position of the follow-up car.

3. The driver of the follow-up vehicle (Agent Sam Kinney) did, in fact, suddenly accelerate the car after the first two shots, as many people (including Kinney himself and other Secret Service present at the time) later testified.

4. There is an AP photograph by James Algens that does, in fact, show the Agent in question (his name was George Hickey) standing on the back seat of the car in Dealey Plaza.

None of these facts, separately or together, "proves" the theory is correct. But it does place it in the realm of the non-crazy, non-absurd possible. IMHO.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2014 04:04 PM by Native Georgian.)
09-27-2014 03:57 PM
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BcatMatt13 Offline
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
Watch JFK: The Smoking Gun on Netflix.
09-28-2014 07:27 AM
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Native Georgian Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-28-2014 07:27 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Watch JFK: The Smoking Gun on Netflix.
Haven't had the chance to, yet, but I'd like to.
09-28-2014 02:23 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Kennedy Assassination
There's no way that Oswald had the skill set to make the shots.


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09-29-2014 01:29 PM
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TPBlaze84 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Kennedy Assassination
Oswald was a deranged individual. He has a fascinating and extremely unique lifestory. He is exactly the kind of person that would get mixed up as the fall man in an assassination plot.
09-29-2014 06:58 PM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Kennedy Assassination
He's also exactly the kind of person who'd wake up one morning and decide to shoot the president.

I think the appeal of the conspiracy theory is that it frightens people that some random nut can kill a president. There's an odd comfort in believing it was all part of some sinister plot.

Hell, if it were just a random nut, then none of us is safe.
10-01-2014 08:48 PM
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Native Georgian Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(10-01-2014 08:48 PM)Smaug Wrote:  He's also exactly the kind of person who'd wake up one morning and decide to shoot the president.

I think the appeal of the conspiracy theory is that it frightens people that some random nut can kill a president. There's an odd comfort in believing it was all part of some sinister plot.

Hell, if it were just a random nut, then none of us is safe.

Well said.

Without getting into the weeds of official membership in political parties or organizations, suffice to say that Oswald was pro-Soviet, pro-Marxist, pro-Communist, and decided to kill the leader of the world's leading anti-Soviet, anti-Marxist, anti-Communist nation and military power.

Little known anymore, but Oswald had earlier in 1963 taken a shot (with the same Carcano rifle, IIRC) at a leading rightwing figure of that era named Edwin Walker, who lived in Dallas. Oswald also told his wife he wanted to shoot Richard Nixon, who was in Dallas for a Pepsi-Co shareholders meeting on November 21 and actually left Dallas on a commercial flight to New York at almost the exact moment that Kennedy arrived in Dallas. Oswald's wife had to persuade him not to shoot Nixon. As far as we know, he never confided to Marina, his intent to shoot Kennedy.
10-02-2014 09:20 AM
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Smaug Offline
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
Yep.

Hell, John Hinkley wasn't political at all. He originally set out to kill Carter, but couldn't get near him.
10-02-2014 11:06 AM
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Lord Stanley Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(09-29-2014 01:29 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  There's no way that Oswald had the skill set to make the shots.

I once put two rounds through the bulls-eye at 100 yards....... with a Colt 911 in .45 that was manufactured in 1936. The other five shots missed the entire target (almost need to say obviously missed the entire target)

Personal anectdotes aside, stranger things can happen.

Oswald was a trained marksman firing a capable rifle from a safe and prone position on a target moving in a generally straight direction. Somewhere in the military statistics database there is a number or a percentage showing how many military members can hit that target and I would bet the number or percentage of people hitting that moving target would be surprisingly high.
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 02:45 PM by Lord Stanley.)
10-02-2014 12:48 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Kennedy Assassination
A bolt action rifle almost equivalent to a .308 round. Naaaah!

Not to mention no one has ever duplicated the shots with the very same weapon.


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(This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 01:28 PM by South Carolina Duke.)
10-02-2014 12:59 PM
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Smaug Offline
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
Whatever happened to that nut that said the guy driving Kennedy's limo did it?
10-02-2014 01:05 PM
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UofM_Tiger Offline
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(10-02-2014 12:59 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  A bolt action rifle almost equivalent to a .308 round. Naaaah!

Not to mention no one has ever duplicates the shots with the very same weapon.


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He once qualified as a sharpshooter in the Marines (later qualification as marksman) so he did have the skill set. While he was shooting at a moving target, the target was not moving very fast and was going almost directly away from him, a much easier shot than one moving across in front of him. And don't forget, he was shooting from a bench rest made of boxes of books, so he had a very stable platform. Also, the shots have been duplicated with the same type of weapon (saw it done one time on a special on the History Channel several years ago).
10-02-2014 01:40 PM
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Lord Stanley Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(10-02-2014 12:59 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Not to mention no one has ever duplicated the shots with the very same weapon.

The same shots and timing were easily duplicated.

Quote:Some critics of the Warren Commission had claimed it was impossible to fire a Carcano rifle in less than 2.3 seconds. Both the CBS and HSCA tests proved conclusively that the claim was not accurate.[67]

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hs..._0057a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Ken...tion_rifle
10-02-2014 02:01 PM
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Lord Stanley Online
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RE: Kennedy Assassination
(10-01-2014 08:48 PM)Smaug Wrote:  I think the appeal of the conspiracy theory is that it frightens people that some random nut can kill a president. There's an odd comfort in believing it was all part of some sinister plot.

This is a lot of truth in this statement.

Many people who believe in conspiracies are frightened by the randomness of horrific acts and balance that with the arrogance of believing they know more than experts. "I'm not stupid enough to believe your version of events..." This arrogance/belief provides the conspiracy theorist a level of control over the randomness of horrific acts.

I think that for a lot of people, it's easier to believe that our government is the enemy - full of evil doers and nefarious plots for the sole purpose of financial gain or neo-con land grabs or healthcare snatches - than to countenance a largely nameless, faceless enemy who willingly martyr themselves to kill others, with no other reason than quasi-religious fervor and multi-directional rage.
10-02-2014 02:21 PM
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