(03-16-2015 02:59 PM)JRsec Wrote: (03-16-2015 11:22 AM)NIU007 Wrote: (03-16-2015 11:12 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote: (03-16-2015 10:38 AM)NIU007 Wrote: Yea Barbarossa had nothing to do with it, but it was at least a bigger mistake, IMO.
I often wondered myself what would have happened if Japan had tried to invade Hawaii. I think there was a thread on here about that some time back.
IMHO Hitler's biggest mistake was declaring war on the United States when he didn't need to. Roosevelt had even less chance of getting a war started with Hitler after the Pearl Harbor attack then before. Germany hadn't attacked us so there would be no increase in the already low public demand for war with Germany, especially when we had just been attacked by another power. The American public would have questioned Roosevelt even continuing Lend-Lease during a war with Japan.
As for Japan invading Hawai'i, there were two options for them, neither all that great. They could invade Oahu directly, but there was still substantial American ground forces on the island. It would have been bloody and only netted some really old battleships that Japan couldn't invest the resources to repair and frankly didn't even fit into Japan's battleship naval beliefs (Japanese battleships of the teens and 20's were designed more toward speed, American battleships of the same period, the "standard battleships" which all the PH battleships were part of, were intentionally short and slow since we wanted more armor protection).
The other option was to invade the other, less well defended, islands around Oahu; and bring in bombers to pound US forces on Oahu or threaten any American counter invasion attempts.
Assuming the success of either operation, the Japanese would have had to garrison and supply the islands at the end of a very long supply chain and would have found the waters crawling with US submarines. Japan had a terrible record on anti-submarine warfare so the subs would have had a field day against Japanese supply ships.
The Kido Butai would have had to commit at least two carriers to stay in Hawai'ian waters during and after the invasion until substantial land based planes reached the area; risking valuable carriers against hungry US subs and potential US carrier counter-strikes; and also denying two valuable carriers against capturing Malaya/Singapore, The Philippines and the oil rich Dutch East Indies.
Yea I don't know why Hitler felt he needed to declare war on the US, didn't seem smart. Though if he had done so, it would have taken a long time for the US to do anything about it if Hitler could have stacked his forces in Western Europe instead of on the Eastern Front.
On the Japanese point I agree, it would have been tough for the Japs to re-supply and reinforce. I couldn't remember off-hand how many land forces the US had in Hawaii at the time.
Technically Hitler didn't declare war on the U.S.. We wanted into the war with Germany and had a destroyer off of the coast of Greenland pursue and depth charge a U-boat (w/no convoy in sight) until the U-boat fired back. Then the war sort of got declared on both sides. But the German high command had issued orders not to fire on U.S. Navy Vessels unless fired upon and in self defense. This kind of stuff has gone on for ages when war needs to be declared. It happened again as recently as Viet Nam (Gulf of Tonkin) and almost happened again over the Pueblo.
Uggghhhh....
MR. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES:
The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.
On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearney and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German sub-marines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that-American destroyers attacked German submarines.
Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.
The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:
Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.
The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.
Accept, Mr. Charge d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration.
December 11, 1941.