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Alternative history: American Civil war
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #1
Alternative history: American Civil war
Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville

How does the war play out differently?
07-14-2014 08:24 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville

How does the war play out differently?

Survives by recovering or he's never hit at Chancellorsville?

If he's out of action recovering during Gettysburg then there's a book on that that I think is pretty accurate on what would happen for Stonewall later:

Stonewall Goes West

If he's still leading his Corp of the ANV on July 2nd, 1863 then he takes Culp's Hill on the first day and the AoP might lose a Corp or two before Meade pulls everyone back to stay in the way of Lee pressing in on Washington and Lee enjoys a nice stay in Harrisburg, PA before deciding what next to do.
07-14-2014 09:24 PM
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CameramanJ Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
Just comparing him to his replacement, Richard S. Ewell, with same orders for simplicity's sake:

- probably would have led as well or better at the Second Battle of Winchester
-- as a result, may have captured Harrisburg before Lee would have brought him to bear on Gettysburg (possibly farther-reaching implications for Northern troop movements around that time)

-may have captured the Culp's Hill and/or Cemetery Hill positions at the Battle of Gettysburg
-- as a result, Union forces possibly defeated and in retreat
*beginning of the end for the Union?

If Gettysburg had been lost anyway, it would be a moot point except for the body count. Probably more Union losses in any of the Confederate retreat battles involving Stonewall.

>>49R makes valid points as well.
07-14-2014 09:46 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville

How does the war play out differently?
Or on the reverse side, what if General Joseph Hooker leads the Army of the Potomac to victory at Chancellorsville? Does the war end there?
07-15-2014 08:18 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville

How does the war play out differently?

Jackson is able to keep Lee on task and doesn't get lured into the Battle of Gettysburg in the first place. And bit, I find your proposed butterfly just as interesting.
07-15-2014 12:23 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
War lasts 6 more months...
07-15-2014 01:49 PM
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Phillip26r Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
I like this game.

What if that minie ball had been three inches to the left or right and it hadn't killed Johnston on April 6, '62? My version is he keeps the pressure on his left flank and drives Grant and his whole army into the swamps, away from the river and the gunboats, that night.
07-15-2014 01:55 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
I see it's all about the southern end on this conversation, since nobody wants to discuss the possible result of General Hooker winning the battle of Chancellorsville.
07-15-2014 02:02 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
The war was decided by logistics. Like most wars are. The north's industrial might was always going to outperform the south's by a wide margin and sooner or later that was always going to win the war.

You want to talk about things that would have changed the outcome? Maybe if Birmingham had gotten started 60 years sooner
07-15-2014 04:41 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-15-2014 04:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The war was decided by logistics. Like most wars are. The north's industrial might was always going to outperform the south's by a wide margin and sooner or later that was always going to win the war.

You want to talk about things that would have changed the outcome? Maybe if Birmingham had gotten started 60 years sooner

This is 100% true based on the altered way of looking at the situation after the war.

Going in nobody, in Europe, thought the North had a real chance to prevent the breakaway.
07-15-2014 04:50 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-15-2014 02:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I see it's all about the southern end on this conversation, since nobody wants to discuss the possible result of General Hooker winning the battle of Chancellorsville.

I'll give it a go Bit, since I think the key factor is the the total losses the North is able to inflict on the South. I don't see the south suing for peace but if Hooker goes all in with his forces and increases the casualty count north of 25K, I think this prevents General Lee from even considering attacking Gettysburg. What's you're opinion?
07-16-2014 07:24 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
07-16-2014 01:55 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.

I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
07-17-2014 08:17 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.
07-17-2014 09:15 AM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-17-2014 09:15 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.

Lee didn't use guerrilla tactics. At best he used an early form of Blitzkrieg tactics.
07-17-2014 10:57 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-17-2014 10:57 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(07-17-2014 09:15 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.
Lee didn't use guerrilla tactics. At best he used an early form of Blitzkrieg tactics.
Whatever the case, being bottled up in Richmond would have severely limited his option.
07-17-2014 11:49 AM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #17
Alternative history: American Civil war
Like 49er said, lee was against and never entertained a guerrilla war plan.


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07-17-2014 09:28 PM
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VA49er Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-17-2014 09:28 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Like 49er said, lee was against and never entertained a guerrilla war plan.


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Yep, that was a major part of his reasoning for surrendering at Appomatox. He didn't want to continue fighting if it meant fighting a guerrilla war.
07-18-2014 08:26 AM
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DragonLair Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
What if Bragg and Smith were able to win the battle at Perryville and the confederates were able to stay in Kentucky longer building support there.
07-18-2014 09:57 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
What if, as was said to be planned, the Confederacy retreated en-mas to South America and the Caribbean and set up a new governments in Brazil or Cuba? Combined with the potential for a Nazi retreat into after WWII into Argentina and and Chile, there arises the probable National-Socialist Confederate States of South America!

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07-18-2014 03:18 PM
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