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Alternative history: American Civil war
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-18-2014 03:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  What if, as was said to be planned, the Confederacy retreated en-mas to South America and the Caribbean and set up a new governments in Brazil or Cuba? Combined with the potential for a Nazi retreat into after WWII into Argentina and and Chile, there arises the probable National-Socialist Confederate States of South America!

Interesting you brought that up. I was just reading about some Confederates that did leave for Brazil, but after the war.

The Confederados
07-20-2014 06:53 AM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(07-15-2014 02:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I see it's all about the southern end on this conversation, since nobody wants to discuss the possible result of General Hooker winning the battle of Chancellorsville.
Assume a scenario of total CSA defeat/surrender in summer/autumn of 1863, in which the Battle of Gettysburg never occurs. (That seems to be the scenario bit is describing). In that case, Lincoln presumably lives for many years beyond April 1865, and the concept of "Reconstruction" as we know it would have never taken place. The process of ending Slavery would have been spread out over a few years.
09-05-2014 03:49 PM
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JSF Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
Sherman burns more of the South, probably. It wasn't really a winnable war, especially at that point. They were critically low on manpower, supplies, and morale. Would've taken much more than Stonewall.
09-06-2014 10:58 AM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(09-06-2014 10:58 AM)JSF Wrote:  Sherman burns more of the South, probably. It wasn't really a winnable war, especially at that point. They were critically low on manpower, supplies, and morale. Would've taken much more than Stonewall.
It's not well-known, but morale in the North wasn't exactly gung-ho, either. A clear, crushing defeat for Union forces in summer 1863 could have brought the whole thing to an end.

Sherman's use of arson on a large scale (as a matter of deliberate, intentional policy) didn't begin until September '64. If Stonewall had been alive and going at full power from May '63 onwards, I can scarcely believe that Sherman would've gotten to start that sooner.
09-07-2014 03:56 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
If the States split in two, what would their relationship be like? USA / Canada, or Berlin Wall?
09-08-2014 10:36 AM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(09-08-2014 10:36 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  If the States split in two, what would their relationship be like? USA / Canada, or Berlin Wall?

More like France and Germany, Kentucky and Missouri playing the part of Alsace-Lorriane.
09-08-2014 12:21 PM
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BleedsHuskieRed Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(09-08-2014 10:36 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  If the States split in two, what would their relationship be like? USA / Canada, or Berlin Wall?
At this point probably USA/Canada. Slavery would have been abolished long ago anyways, even if the split had been permanent. Big 10/SEC games would be international affairs!
09-08-2014 01:36 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #28
Alternative history: American Civil war
(09-07-2014 03:56 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(09-06-2014 10:58 AM)JSF Wrote:  Sherman burns more of the South, probably. It wasn't really a winnable war, especially at that point. They were critically low on manpower, supplies, and morale. Would've taken much more than Stonewall.
It's not well-known, but morale in the North wasn't exactly gung-ho, either. A clear, crushing defeat for Union forces in summer 1863 could have brought the whole thing to an end.

Sherman's use of arson on a large scale (as a matter of deliberate, intentional policy) didn't begin until September '64. If Stonewall had been alive and going at full power from May '63 onwards, I can scarcely believe that Sherman would've gotten to start that sooner.

Sherman was not promoted nor did he have any success until there was no one to fight.

Losing Jackson was huge! Until the Pa campaign, The ANV and Lee were undefeated.


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09-14-2014 09:43 PM
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ECUgradstudent Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(09-14-2014 09:43 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  
(09-07-2014 03:56 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(09-06-2014 10:58 AM)JSF Wrote:  Sherman burns more of the South, probably. It wasn't really a winnable war, especially at that point. They were critically low on manpower, supplies, and morale. Would've taken much more than Stonewall.
It's not well-known, but morale in the North wasn't exactly gung-ho, either. A clear, crushing defeat for Union forces in summer 1863 could have brought the whole thing to an end.

Sherman's use of arson on a large scale (as a matter of deliberate, intentional policy) didn't begin until September '64. If Stonewall had been alive and going at full power from May '63 onwards, I can scarcely believe that Sherman would've gotten to start that sooner.

Sherman was not promoted nor did he have any success until there was no one to fight.

Losing Jackson was huge! Until the Pa campaign, The ANV and Lee were undefeated.


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George Meade and his leadership skills had just as much to do with the ANV and Lee losing as did Stonewall's death. Meade is a victim of not worrying about PR and being a professional solider that gave Lincoln/USA what they needed at the time (a victory at Gettysburg and no losses at Bristoe Station and Mine Run) and worked the with resources Lincoln/USA gave him (pulling troops for NYC riots and Army of Cumberland, not undertaking battle in mid fall of 63 when he was ready but Lincoln wanted him to wait, and etc).

Ironically, before and after Mine Run, Meade wanted to move to Fedricksburg as the supply base to allow a late 63/early 64 battle/campaign. Lincoln was completely opposed to this, but Grant accepted Meade's battle plan to go around the right flank (eastern side) of ANV/Lee in spring of 64 and Lincoln had to accede to Grant's request.
08-15-2015 04:44 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #30
Alternative history: American Civil war
I would argue that Gettysburg was a tie.

Meade didn't put up a counter attack once The ANV came off of the field.
08-15-2015 04:48 PM
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ECUgradstudent Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-15-2015 04:48 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  I would argue that Gettysburg was a tie.

Meade didn't put up a counter attack once The ANV came off of the field.

Again he gave the Union what it needed (not a loss) plus he won a victory that the then present (including the South) and history has recognized as a victory. A counter attack was not prudent nor necessary. Gettysburg may not have been the end of the Civil War, but it was a big part and was the first step to the end of the ANV.
08-15-2015 06:55 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
Imagine if George McClellan hadn't been so conservative, when the Union Army stood outside Richmond. The Rebels had tree trunks disguised as cannons, and McClellan was so conservative that he ignored President Lincoln's order to attack. McClellan had a lot of political backers, and had planned to run for President in the next election. So he felt he could safely ignore the President's instructions.

Of course, he got replaced by U.S. Grant shortly after McClellan's refusal to commence a battle to take the Rebel's Capital City, Richmond, which would have ended the Civil War almost before it was started. So it worked out in the end. But imagine if McClellan had been a competent military leader.
08-16-2015 09:11 AM
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UofM_Tiger Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-16-2015 09:11 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Imagine if George McClellan hadn't been so conservative, when the Union Army stood outside Richmond. The Rebels had tree trunks disguised as cannons, and McClellan was so conservative that he ignored President Lincoln's order to attack. McClellan had a lot of political backers, and had planned to run for President in the next election. So he felt he could safely ignore the President's instructions.

Of course, he got replaced by U.S. Grant shortly after McClellan's refusal to commence a battle to take the Rebel's Capital City, Richmond, which would have ended the Civil War almost before it was started. So it worked out in the end. But imagine if McClellan had been a competent military leader.

There were several other generals between McClellan and Grant, but you are right. If McClellan had been less conservative and less arrogant the war could have been over much earlier.
08-17-2015 10:47 AM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #34
Alternative history: American Civil war
What if Jackson and the ANV would have trotted into DC right after First
Manassas? It was there for the taking.
08-19-2015 08:22 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-19-2015 08:22 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  What if Jackson and the ANV would have trotted into DC right after First
Manassas? It was there for the taking.

Might have got Maryland to flip over to the Confederacy.
08-19-2015 09:10 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-19-2015 09:10 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(08-19-2015 08:22 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  What if Jackson and the ANV would have trotted into DC right after First
Manassas? It was there for the taking.
Might have got Maryland to flip over to the Confederacy.
The first few months of the Civil War were very iffy.
08-20-2015 10:14 AM
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CameramanJ Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-20-2015 10:14 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(08-19-2015 09:10 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(08-19-2015 08:22 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  What if Jackson and the ANV would have trotted into DC right after First
Manassas? It was there for the taking.
Might have got Maryland to flip over to the Confederacy.
The first few months of the Civil War were very iffy.

Both sides started the war with short enlistments, right? Seems like they weren't exactly sure what to expect, but they thought it would be on the short side.
08-23-2015 09:16 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
Short sighted government outlooks on war? Perish the thought.
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2015 10:32 AM by bitcruncher.)
08-23-2015 10:32 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war
(08-15-2015 04:48 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  I would argue that Gettysburg was a tie.

Meade didn't put up a counter attack once The ANV came off of the field.

Lee lost 1/3 of his army and retreated. It was a Union victory.
08-26-2015 12:11 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #40
Alternative history: American Civil war
I'd disagree and so would others. Tha ANV waited for an attack from the Union Army and it never came. They withdrew from the files of battle and left the following day without being pursued. I'd call that a draw
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2015 12:20 PM by South Carolina Duke.)
08-26-2015 12:18 PM
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