To walk the beaches at Normandy is a very moving thing. It can make you tear up to look from the water to the cliffs. Those men that stormed those beaches - American, English, Canadians, whatever were all heros.

BTW - Memorial Day was started in the northern part of the U.S. and was not instituted in a lot of southern states until the middle to later part of the 20th century.

Also, speaking of fighting a war on two fronts, I will always believe that if Hitler had honored the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact he signed with with Stalin in 1939 - at least for a little while longer - his side almost certainly would have won. However, neither man trusted the other - in fact they were each terrified of each other - so it was always an uneasy accord.

Had the Germans been able to focus on the UK/USA, instead of having their attention/resources divided, they would have won. Also had the Nazis not committed so much of their resources to the Balkins before invading the Soviet Union (which never would have happened had Rommel not been dispatched to Africa) the Germans would have won.

Fortunately for us, Hitler was a HORRIBLE military strategist and too egotistical to listen to those who had more training in that particular field. That shortcoming, along with tremendous valor on the part of millions of young men all across the world, basically saved Western civilization as we have come to know it.

In some respects, I think the Eastern Front has been somewhat glorified in hindsight by guilt stricken Western academics and historians.

The EF was really the equivalent of the two biggest, dumbest, lumbering knuckle dragging Neanderthals you know taking turns punching each other in the face. Yes, there was a ton of bloodshed, but at the end of the day I don't think it was nearly important to the outcome of WWII as some suggest. Russians fighting with American tanks and American supplies were fighting hand to hand against Germans who had overextended their supply lines and were trapped by the Russian winter.

Don't get me wrong I'm not minimizing the Russian sacrifice, but I tend to believe it was Hitler who defeated the Germans in the East with help from American supplies and technology being fed to the Russians

Prior to our help and the German stupidity, the Russians could barely take Poland... I mean that's joke worthy.

The Western Front had all of the technology, generals, and strategy of note.

Not to mention, the Soviet Union didnt have to bother themselves with naval engagements. That never gets mentioned.

(06-04-2014 08:02 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Also, speaking of fighting a war on two fronts, I will always believe that if Hitler had honored the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact he signed with with Stalin in 1939 - at least for a little while longer - his side almost certainly would have won. However, neither man trusted the other - in fact they were each terrified of each other - so it was always an uneasy accord.

Had the Germans been able to focus on the UK/USA, instead of having their attention/resources divided, they would have won. Also had the Nazis not committed so much of their resources to the Balkins before invading the Soviet Union (which never would have happened had Rommel not been dispatched to Africa) the Germans would have won.

Fortunately for us, Hitler was a HORRIBLE military strategist and too egotistical to listen to those who had more training in that particular field. That shortcoming, along with tremendous valor on the part of millions of young men all across the world, basically saved Western civilization as we have come to know it.

Hitler had no intention of ever honoring his pact with the Soviets the true enemy all along was Bolshevism/ Soviets which he thought was financed and started by World Jewry. Treaties meant nothing to him, law meant nothing to him, as Nostradamus said a child of Germany who would observe no law, he was the most vile of human beings. Thank God he did not win, their technology was in many ways, was far superior, but he did not listen to his Generals or develop the A Bomb first or waited to late to start building jet planes in great numbers which could have changed the tide of the war

(06-04-2014 08:45 AM)BIgCatonProwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2014 08:02 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Also, speaking of fighting a war on two fronts, I will always believe that if Hitler had honored the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact he signed with with Stalin in 1939 - at least for a little while longer - his side almost certainly would have won. However, neither man trusted the other - in fact they were each terrified of each other - so it was always an uneasy accord.

Had the Germans been able to focus on the UK/USA, instead of having their attention/resources divided, they would have won. Also had the Nazis not committed so much of their resources to the Balkins before invading the Soviet Union (which never would have happened had Rommel not been dispatched to Africa) the Germans would have won.

Fortunately for us, Hitler was a HORRIBLE military strategist and too egotistical to listen to those who had more training in that particular field. That shortcoming, along with tremendous valor on the part of millions of young men all across the world, basically saved Western civilization as we have come to know it.

Hitler had no intention of ever honoring his pact with the Soviets the true enemy all along was Bolshevism/ Soviets which he thought was financed and started by World Jewry. Treaties meant nothing to him, law meant nothing to him, as Nostradamus said a child of Germany who would observe no law, he was the most vile of human beings. Thank God he did not win, their technology was in many ways, was far superior, but he did not listen to his Generals or develop the A Bomb first or waited to late to start building jet planes in great numbers which could have changed the tide of the war

I'd have to agree. Hitler had too many rhetorical enemies for his limited manpower. He considered Slavs (particularly Poles, Russians, & Ukranians) to be untermenshen, who needed to be moved to create lebensraum (living space) for Germans. And because the Bible says Arabs are descended from Abraham Hitler considered them to be the same as Jews. On top of this, most of Hitler's willing allies (Finland, Hungary, Romania, & Bulgaria) had beef with the USSR but little stomach for fighting the US/UK.

Even if the Russians/Germans remained at peace, the Brits would have defeated Hitler the same way they defeated Napoleon - strangulation. Europe couldn't feed itself and had no oil reserves. Hitler's "navy" was tiny; even combined with the Italian navy it was no match for Britain so Hitler could never have completed the conquest of Britain. Any move by Hitler into Turkey/Iraq/Iran would have alarmed Stalin enough that he would have attacked Hitler and the end result would have been the same.

Also, eventually the Resistance would have overwhelmed Hitler's manpower. No nation of 60-70 million can control a whole continent by force indefinitely, particularly with a huge industrial power (US/UK) supplying the Resistance with weapons. Again, just like defeating Napoleon (where the UK repeatedly financed new Austrian/Prussian armies after their governments had made peace with Napoleon). For reference, there were more Axis troops fighting Tito in Yugoslavia than fighting the US/UK in Italy.

Hate to interrupt but threads like these is exactly why I have been pushing GTS to add a history forum to CSNBBS. He had me make a poll to see if there is enough support for it.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-691340.html

Every time I see any WWII accounts of D Day it is incredible what they went through.

(06-03-2014 10:19 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  MacArthur was a lunatic

Example(s) of his lunacy?

Quote:Really, WWI and WWII should be considered one war, not two. The two are directly related and the foolish way in which the Treaty of Versailles was constructed - as an over the top punishment of the Germans - essentially guaranteed that there would be a rematch of sorts.

This.

(06-04-2014 08:02 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Also, speaking of fighting a war on two fronts, I will always believe that if Hitler had honored the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact he signed with with Stalin in 1939 - at least for a little while longer - his side almost certainly would have won. However, neither man trusted the other - in fact they were each terrified of each other - so it was always an uneasy accord.

Had the Germans been able to focus on the UK/USA, instead of having their attention/resources divided, they would have won. Also had the Nazis not committed so much of their resources to the Balkins before invading the Soviet Union (which never would have happened had Rommel not been dispatched to Africa) the Germans would have won.

Fortunately for us, Hitler was a HORRIBLE military strategist and too egotistical to listen to those who had more training in that particular field. That shortcoming, along with tremendous valor on the part of millions of young men all across the world, basically saved Western civilization as we have come to know it.

You can say that again. It's easy to look in hindsight, but attacking the Soviets in the winter in eastern Europe had to be one of the dumbest tactical decisions in history. It's far from the only time. You just don't fight a country by their rules, on their front, in their environment, unless you want to fight a losing battle. You better have a damn good plan for that to work.

It truly was a different era back then. Americans faced so many more real challenges than we do today. God bless those troops that fought to protect our country, our freedoms, and our way of life.

(06-03-2014 09:20 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  I am a member of the Sons of the American Legion and the post I am belong to just lost three veterans who served during the WWII/Korea era. Most veterans do not like to talk about their war experiences, especially to non-veterans, but when they do open up, I will listen and learn.

That is the truth. My Uncle Freddie was shot on Iwo Jima. He never even talked to his kids about it. He finally opened up to me after my return from a four year tour at Clark AB, Republic of the Philippines...

(06-04-2014 11:34 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 09:20 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  I am a member of the Sons of the American Legion and the post I am belong to just lost three veterans who served during the WWII/Korea era. Most veterans do not like to talk about their war experiences, especially to non-veterans, but when they do open up, I will listen and learn.

That is the truth. My Uncle Freddie was shot on Iwo Jima. He never even talked to his kids about it. He finally opened up to me after my return from a four year tour at Clark AB, Republic of the Philippines...

What years were you @ Clark AFB? I was at Cubi from 88 to 92. Flew helos and was always in/out Clark, at least until Mt. Pinatubo.

just an FYI guys a newly created history forum has been made. http://csnbbs.com/forum-970.html

dropping ramp for the first time is an ....interesting... experience

I think one of the big reasons WWII fascinates all of us, is because Hitler, a madman, had a legitimate chance to succeed at world domination. Thankfully, he WAS mad, and made too many mistakes to possibly win. Defeating the Soviet Union would have required the death of Stalin somehow. Hitler would have needed some incredible luck for that to happen.

(06-04-2014 11:34 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 09:20 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  I am a member of the Sons of the American Legion and the post I am belong to just lost three veterans who served during the WWII/Korea era. Most veterans do not like to talk about their war experiences, especially to non-veterans, but when they do open up, I will listen and learn.

That is the truth. My Uncle Freddie was shot on Iwo Jima. He never even talked to his kids about it. He finally opened up to me after my return from a four year tour at Clark AB, Republic of the Philippines...

My grandfather served on the Enterprise from 1939 until he was injured some time in late 1942 or 1943. Those guys went through hell and more. The history and medals and awards that ship received speak volumes.

He never once spoke of the war other than telling us he worked for the government during that time. It wasn't until I went through his items with my mother two years ago that we started to find out what he went through.

I know we all think that there could/should be a V-E and V-J day, but Memorial Day is what people will remember. There are a lot of the younger generations that don't know the history of this time.

D Day pales in comparison to number of dead and wounded of many other battles in Europe or thr Pacific, but it is seen as the day that started the liberation of Europe.

(06-04-2014 07:46 AM)BIgCatonProwl Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 10:19 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That's true. Also, the US ultimately came to control the Pacific, which was a major achievement given Japan's aspirations and head start (because of Wilson's blunder at the end of WWI - shunning the Japanese even though they aligned with the winning side). MacArthur was a lunatic but his efforts in the Philippines are rightly the stuff of legend.

I was just making the point that to most of the US, the war began in 1941. In much of Europe, particularly Russia/USSR, it basically began in 1914 and never really ended until the armistice was signed in 1945.

Really, WWI and WWII should be considered one war, not two. The two are directly related and the foolish way in which the Treaty of Versailles was constructed - as an over the top punishment of the Germans - essentially guaranteed that there would be a rematch of sorts.

Yes it should be, after WW I, it was a utter failure to secure a true and lasting peace, the allies (except for America) wanted revenge, President Wilson advised the harsh terms dictated to Germany was guaranteeing another war. Also it was a result of the failure of Wilson's diplomacy to secure the U.S. Senate ratification of the treaty for the USA to be in the League of Nations the predecessor to the United Nations leaving it on the sidelines, the one indispensable world power out of world affairs the United States of America. As result the seeds of bitterness was sown in Germany giving rise to Hitler, who was going to right all the wrongs done to Germany

The U.S. Senate rejecting the League of Nations can be traced all the way back to George Washington. I think in his farewell address he advised America to stay out of European affairs and up until 1917 we mostly did just that. After WW I, everyone wanted a return to the isolationist ways. It took an attack on Pearl Harbor to end American self-isolation from the world stage.

(06-03-2014 08:52 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(06-03-2014 07:43 PM)AntiG Wrote:  i was just watching "The World Wars" on History Channel the other day.

Yeah, I saw that too. Very well done. I have a few quibbles with it - especially the overly kind way in which Wilson was portrayed - but I really liked it.

I did not see any mention of Eisenhower whatsoever and that disappointed me.

My wife's grandfather was a part of the Normandy Invasion and what's amazing about his story is he couldn't swim at all and was positively terrified of the water. He was still alive when "Saving Private Ryan" first came out and he thought it was chillingly reminiscent of his own experience. That was very cool to hear. Usually it goes the other way.

Anyway, my wife's pop - an Italian immigrant - said he was so scared of drowning, especially with all of that gear on, that he didn't even really think about the hale of gunfire in his direction until he reached the beach and was safe from drowning.

Can you imagine that feeling? You just survived a drowning by the skin of your teeth and instead of collecting yourself, you have to storm a beach to find safety while thousands of machine guns are firing all around you. And if you survive that, now you are looking at months/years on end of possibly dying every single day.

THAT is courage and I will NEVER take that for granted. That's also why I just laugh at anyone who ever compares a game of any kind to a war. Not even close.

My Dad was a Medical Tech on the Aleda E Lutz Hospital ship that worked DDay and so many other battles. They were immediately dispatched to the Pacific theater after VE Day. He saw so many Guys and Gals shot up and blown up over 4 years He never returned to The University of Louisville Medical school. Instead He became an Architectural Engineer graduating in 1955 from UL school of Buisness to help rebuild this nation. The Aleda E Lutz hospital ship was named after the First American Female Nurse killed in WWII.Her plane was shot down during a rescue mission.
My Grandfather fought in WWI and was on a ship that was torpedoed but survived.

(06-04-2014 10:01 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  My wife's grandfather was a part of the Normandy Invasion and what's amazing about his story is he couldn't swim at all and was positively terrified of the water. He was still alive when "Saving Private Ryan" first came out and he thought it was chillingly reminiscent of his own experience. That was very cool to hear. Usually it goes the other way.

Anyway, my wife's pop - an Italian immigrant - said he was so scared of drowning, especially with all of that gear on, that he didn't even really think about the hale of gunfire in his direction until he reached the beach and was safe from drowning.

Can you imagine that feeling? You just survived a drowning by the skin of your teeth and instead of collecting yourself, you have to storm a beach to find safety while thousands of machine guns are firing all around you. And if you survive that, now you are looking at months/years on end of possibly dying every single day.

THAT is courage and I will NEVER take that for granted. That's also why I just laugh at anyone who ever compares a game of any kind to a war. Not even close.

It's now standard corporate IT verbiage to use the term "war room" for system troubleshooting conference calls. I'm far from PC and I'm not easily offended, but that one annoys the hell out of me.

The sacrifices made by millions of young men, on June 6, 1944 and so many other days, richly deserve to be remembered and honored. Tigeer mentioned the feeling of walking the beaches of Normandy. I never fail to tear up when watching the last sequence in Saving Private Ryan where Ryan visits the ceremony in Normandy. The rows and rows of crosses is very sobering, and as jaxnolefan notes, it wasn't even the deadliest battle of the war. May God bless anyone who has ever served, either in times of peace or war.