(05-22-2015 08:44 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  There is no question that any program that must compete directly against an NFL team for fan and media attention is facing an uphill climb. It is simply a matter of being in the second division, as it were.

It is not just in the ACC but all over the country. For example, look at Northwestern and Minnesota in the Big Ten. It is no coincidence that they have the two smallest stadia in that league. That is also what will always hold back Maryland and Rutgers. People just are never going to care about Terps football like they will Redskins or Ravens football. Similarly, the Scarlet Knights will always take a backseat to the Giants and Jets. That's just how it goes - especially in the Northeast.

If Miami can pull off this proposed partnership, that would be ENORMOUS for that program and would grease the skids for their return to prominence, IMHO. Like Pitt, the U is never going to consistently draw 65,000 plus fans per game. It's just not going to happen. However, they could consistently draw 40-44,000 fans and that would make that stadium a very lively atmosphere.

As for Pitt, it is the largest employer in Western PA and among the largest employers in the entire commonwealth. It has plenty of juice among the locals. The problem is they haven't won 10 games in a season even once since the 1981-1982 campaign and have had 15 non-winning seasons in that same time frame. That is incredible when you consider that almost every other major college football program in the country has had at least one 10-win season during that period.

That level of futility would harm interest in any program and it kills interest in a program that is sharing its stadium/market with the most successful - and one of the most popular - professional football team in the Super Bowl era.

You have to win...especially when your co-tenant - and primary competitor for attention - always seems to win against a much higher level of competition. The attitude becomes, "Gee, should I make time today to watch Pitt lose to Wake Forest or would I be better off running my errands today so that tomorrow I can watch the Steelers beat the hell out of the Bengals? Tough choice."

I experienced this firsthand in 2005 when Pitt qualified for the Fiesta Bowl - its lone BCS bowl appearance. I could not convince any of my friends to go to Arizona with me for the game and they are all fanatical Pitt fans. Their rationale: they wanted to save up their money in case the Steelers made the Super Bowl. The Steelers lost to New England in the AFC Championship Game. Pitt was crushed by Utah in that Fiesta Bowl. My friends saved a ton of money.

Personally, I do not believe that Pitt can consistently fill Heinz Field even if it goes on an unprecedented streak of dominance. That stadium is simply too big for Pitt's needs. We would be much better off in a stadium like the one Miami is discussing. However, if Pitt could develop into a competitive college football program that competed for its division title every few years, I do believe they would average in the neighborhood of 50,000 plus fans per game. In fact, I have no doubt about that.

...but you gotta win.

Dead on. You're right - You Must Win. Especially in Pittsburgh or Miami. In Louisville and Raleigh and Syracuse or SC or VA fans will come to see major college athletes anyway. In pro sports towns that's no big deal. That's why I think GA Tech is interesting. They seem to break the mold.

(05-22-2015 12:52 PM)RedGrad Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 08:44 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  There is no question that any program that must compete directly against an NFL team for fan and media attention is facing an uphill climb. It is simply a matter of being in the second division, as it were.

It is not just in the ACC but all over the country. For example, look at Northwestern and Minnesota in the Big Ten. It is no coincidence that they have the two smallest stadia in that league. That is also what will always hold back Maryland and Rutgers. People just are never going to care about Terps football like they will Redskins or Ravens football. Similarly, the Scarlet Knights will always take a backseat to the Giants and Jets. That's just how it goes - especially in the Northeast.

If Miami can pull off this proposed partnership, that would be ENORMOUS for that program and would grease the skids for their return to prominence, IMHO. Like Pitt, the U is never going to consistently draw 65,000 plus fans per game. It's just not going to happen. However, they could consistently draw 40-44,000 fans and that would make that stadium a very lively atmosphere.

As for Pitt, it is the largest employer in Western PA and among the largest employers in the entire commonwealth. It has plenty of juice among the locals. The problem is they haven't won 10 games in a season even once since the 1981-1982 campaign and have had 15 non-winning seasons in that same time frame. That is incredible when you consider that almost every other major college football program in the country has had at least one 10-win season during that period.

That level of futility would harm interest in any program and it kills interest in a program that is sharing its stadium/market with the most successful - and one of the most popular - professional football team in the Super Bowl era.

You have to win...especially when your co-tenant - and primary competitor for attention - always seems to win against a much higher level of competition. The attitude becomes, "Gee, should I make time today to watch Pitt lose to Wake Forest or would I be better off running my errands today so that tomorrow I can watch the Steelers beat the hell out of the Bengals? Tough choice."

I experienced this firsthand in 2005 when Pitt qualified for the Fiesta Bowl - its lone BCS bowl appearance. I could not convince any of my friends to go to Arizona with me for the game and they are all fanatical Pitt fans. Their rationale: they wanted to save up their money in case the Steelers made the Super Bowl. The Steelers lost to New England in the AFC Championship Game. Pitt was crushed by Utah in that Fiesta Bowl. My friends saved a ton of money.

Personally, I do not believe that Pitt can consistently fill Heinz Field even if it goes on an unprecedented streak of dominance. That stadium is simply too big for Pitt's needs. We would be much better off in a stadium like the one Miami is discussing. However, if Pitt could develop into a competitive college football program that competed for its division title every few years, I do believe they would average in the neighborhood of 50,000 plus fans per game. In fact, I have no doubt about that.

...but you gotta win.

Dead on. You're right - You Must Win. Especially in Pittsburgh or Miami. In Louisville and Raleigh and Syracuse or SC or VA fans will come to see major college athletes anyway. In pro sports towns that's no big deal. That's why I think GA Tech is interesting. They seem to break the mold.

I understand the "winning" aspect of your stance, but I'm a little confused by this "amazed by GT" stance. And I realize that attendance figures are reported differently.

You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

So yes, I do wish SU could draw the numbers that GT has been getting with high 40K numbers, but I don't see how this data supports your contention that they are such an improvement over Miami.

Cheers,
Neil

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

(05-22-2015 01:38 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

Goes to show you the difference in impression made by playing in a "right-size" stadium.

(05-22-2015 02:22 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:38 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

Goes to show you the difference in impression made by playing in a "right-size" stadium.

Well this could certainly be true. Looks like Miami's reported attendance is higher than it appears on television. I've seen some pics that were astonishing. GA Tech does show 90% attendance vs Miami's 71%. Smaller stadium.

(05-22-2015 02:22 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:38 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

Goes to show you the difference in impression made by playing in a "right-size" stadium.

Honestly, that's a big deal. Last year's Baylor/TCU game was the best game of the year, IMHO. It was a great game and the atmosphere was electric in 44,000-seat McLane Stadium. However, had it been played in 100,000-seat AT&T Stadium, it would have felt like a really good C-USA game.

Schools that are located in NFL markets would be wise to consider that fact when deciding their stadium solutions.

(05-01-2015 11:26 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Equity stake? Must be hallucinating if you're seeing those lines.

Though stadium owner Stephen Ross has declined to comment, several UM officials say they believe Ross will be receptive to negotiating terms to allow UM out of its Sun Life lease if the joint stadium project materializes as UM and MLS hope.

Ross makes more than $4 million annually in revenue from having the Hurricanes as a tenant; UM doesn’t pay rent but the sides split some revenue.

The Hurricanes have 17 years left on the lease. So Ross would lose in the neighborhood of $60 million over 14 years if UM leaves. But for buyout purposes, that number could be reduced somewhat factoring in discounted cash flow or if UM occasionally plays big games at Sun Life.

“Let’s hope Steve doesn’t make it difficult,” said a high-ranking UM Board of Trustee member. “Our fans don’t like it up there; they want to be down south. That’s where our base is. You have politicians involved from the city and county, so this is difficult. But MLS needs us for the political side of getting this done. We don’t want to be a renter. We want to be a partner in the project.”

Donna Shalala, who has left UM, won’t say if she will remain involved in the stadium pursuit
-- Miami Herald

SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL

If UM isn't paying rent at Sun-Life, playing at least one (the biggest) game there every year would go a long way towards mitigating any losses. Moreover, that would also be good for UM - play Duke and Pitt in the smaller stadium, but VT and FSU in the larger one.*

Not saying I'm convinced this WILL happen, but I'm starting to come over to the possibility...

* note: at some point in the future I realize that Pitt might draw a bigger crowd than VT, but not now.

http://www.stateoftheu.com/2015/7/17/899...ami-future

Beckham struck a deal for an MLS-only 25K stadium. He wants the "U" to pay for the difference if/when it grows to 40K+. Article also states the Dolphins would require the Canes to buy out the remainder of their lease.

...it's looking like Miami will be at Sun-Life for a LONG time.

(05-22-2015 01:38 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

That only changed two years ago. Before that they had Clemson and UGA at home the same year. It was good for GT because it split up their two big sellers but it hurt Clemson by putting GT and FSU in the Valley in the same season. Now instead of splitting the two higher priced conference games between two season we get them both in the same year.

Lol at Miami

(07-17-2015 07:31 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:38 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-22-2015 01:30 PM)omniorange Wrote:  You do realize that Miami's reported attendance figures are consistently higher than GT's, even though Atlanta Metro area is about the same population as the Miami Metro area.

Now that may be because of the huge interest in the FSU-Miami game, but that is still only every other year in Miami. And GT does have an equivalent game with Clemson.

GT has TWO games roughly equivalent to the FSU game for Miami: Clemson and Georgia. So GT has a guaranteed sellout EVERY year, but Miami every other year.

That only changed two years ago. Before that they had Clemson and UGA at home the same year. It was good for GT because it split up their two big sellers but it hurt Clemson by putting GT and FSU in the Valley in the same season. Now instead of splitting the two higher priced conference games between two season we get them both in the same year.

You get a B+ for spin here, but in reality Clemson has three big draw games - FSU, South Carolina, and GT. So the Tigers were not "hurt" by the change attendance wise. You still get two of the three home every other year. Attendance is not, or at least should not, be the issue.

The issue should be that it's harder to win the Atlantic Division title when the two ACC opponents are away.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:The first: UM not being at the table. The private college has 17 years left in its lease with the Miami Dolphin at Sun Life Stadium, and breaking that deal would be costly. Housing UM also would move Beckham’s 25,000-seat soccer stadium to about 40,000 seats, complicating the budget and design logistics.

On Friday, UM athletic director Blake James said he “will always keep all options open” but emphasized how much the college likes its current home and the renovations underway there.

“It’s an exciting day for soccer fans in the South Florida area. I congratulate them on moving forward,” James said. “With that said, we are in a contract with Sun Life Stadium and are excited to open our season there on Sept. 5, in many ways in a brand new stadium that will enhance our fan experience.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/co...rylink=cpy