(03-24-2014 11:25 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  I wonder if UMass had been selected instead of Tulane for that spot, if they had stayed. Regardless, I don't understand why the addition of Tulane was supposedly the final straw for the C-7. The votes were not there for Tulane's admission without the C-7's consent. So, from the outside, it appears they voted "Yes" and then claimed victimhood over their own consent.

There were some crazy conference rules in effect; if all non-football schools voted one way, and all football schools voted another; it was a "tie" to be broken by the commish. So, according to their own stupid rules, Tulane and ECU could be added without their consent.

(03-24-2014 07:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i dont think Tulane was the last straw or in fact any straw, that forced the hand of the c7.

The Marquette AD said Tulane was the final straw. But a lot of his comments were stupid; "A strong basketball conference" doesn't mean "a conference of all schools good at basketball." That's actually a recipe for disaster; the mega-Big East got so many bids BECAUSE some teams at the bottom were truly terrible. The New Big East had too many similar teams beating the crap out of each other 3-8 this season, and only DePaul/Butler at the bottom. They needed one fewer good team, and one more terrible team OR two more bad teams (St. Bona & Duquesne) for 12 teams and they could have sent six to the dance.

(03-24-2014 07:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Also, ECU, Memphis and Temple fans blame the C-7 for keeping them out of the old, BCS-AQ football Big East from 2005-11. Which is actually pretty fair, we did do that.

Temple, yes.
It wasn't the C7 keeping East Carolina & Memphis out; it was ECU's bad location and bad basketball facility; and Memphis' very poor football program. The C7 would have welcomed Memphis with open arms, FOOTBALL didn't want Memphis until they needed Memphis.

(03-26-2014 07:29 AM)Tigersmoke Wrote:  No offense Marquette but yall and depaul were truly stupid adds when he beast was losing fbball schools. Memphis,ECU and Smiss were the teams that may have saved the beast and thier AQ. Now the AAC is poised to do what you all should have.. jmo nothing personal

In 2003 (when BC, VT and Miami left) the football schools voted to split from the Catholic Five; but Tranghese explained to them that:
-- the C5 wouldn't be a conference anymore, and lose their automatic bid.
-- the C5 would then sue the bejeezus out of the football schools.

Adding DePaul and Marquette was a compromise so that the C7 and football could amicably split down the road; it was EXPECTED to happen within five years of the Mega Big East, but the NCAA rule change adding non-conference games let the BE get tons of NCAA bids; so they stayed together until this past year.

Well JPSchmack memphis was in the middle of a long bowl game run and if the beast was adding schools for a peaceful split then how many they took was not important. When they added for bball they should've also added for football so all parties could have walked away healthy and happy. As I've stated the beast was'nt defeated on the field/court but in the boardroom. Everyone say this situation from miles away and acted as so except for the big east and they paid the ultimate price. The ACC was not better they were only smarter. The beast could now have the same teams with wind to their backs and the AAC could've had quality fball by letting the newbies grow under the aq banner.

(04-01-2014 08:26 AM)Tigersmoke Wrote:  Well JPSchmack memphis was in the middle of a long bowl game run and if the beast was adding schools for a peaceful split then how many they took was not important. When they added for bball they should've also added for football so all parties could have walked away healthy and happy. As I've stated the beast was'nt defeated on the field/court but in the boardroom. Everyone say this situation from miles away and acted as so except for the big east and they paid the ultimate price. The ACC was not better they were only smarter. The beast could now have the same teams with wind to their backs and the AAC could've had quality fball by letting the newbies grow under the aq banner.

I'd have to assume the reason Memphis didn't get the 2003-2005 invite was the state of facilities/infrastructure.

Memphis' football facility was/is the ancient Liberty Bowl. Their women's basketball venue was/is an attrociously tiny gym built a long time ago.

USF & USF are big markets, with brand new facilities, pumping money into athletics. They're all infrastructure, and you could see they were ready to blossom, and membership in a better conference would up their game.

(03-31-2014 08:36 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(03-24-2014 11:25 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  I wonder if UMass had been selected instead of Tulane for that spot, if they had stayed. Regardless, I don't understand why the addition of Tulane was supposedly the final straw for the C-7. The votes were not there for Tulane's admission without the C-7's consent. So, from the outside, it appears they voted "Yes" and then claimed victimhood over their own consent.

There were some crazy conference rules in effect; if all non-football schools voted one way, and all football schools voted another; it was a "tie" to be broken by the commish. So, according to their own stupid rules, Tulane and ECU could be added without their consent.

(03-24-2014 07:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i dont think Tulane was the last straw or in fact any straw, that forced the hand of the c7.

The Marquette AD said Tulane was the final straw. But a lot of his comments were stupid; "A strong basketball conference" doesn't mean "a conference of all schools good at basketball." That's actually a recipe for disaster; the mega-Big East got so many bids BECAUSE some teams at the bottom were truly terrible. The New Big East had too many similar teams beating the crap out of each other 3-8 this season, and only DePaul/Butler at the bottom. They needed one fewer good team, and one more terrible team OR two more bad teams (St. Bona & Duquesne) for 12 teams and they could have sent six to the dance.

(03-24-2014 07:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Also, ECU, Memphis and Temple fans blame the C-7 for keeping them out of the old, BCS-AQ football Big East from 2005-11. Which is actually pretty fair, we did do that.

Temple, yes.
It wasn't the C7 keeping East Carolina & Memphis out; it was ECU's bad location and bad basketball facility; and Memphis' very poor football program. The C7 would have welcomed Memphis with open arms, FOOTBALL didn't want Memphis until they needed Memphis.

(03-26-2014 07:29 AM)Tigersmoke Wrote:  No offense Marquette but yall and depaul were truly stupid adds when he beast was losing fbball schools. Memphis,ECU and Smiss were the teams that may have saved the beast and thier AQ. Now the AAC is poised to do what you all should have.. jmo nothing personal

In 2003 (when BC, VT and Miami left) the football schools voted to split from the Catholic Five; but Tranghese explained to them that:
-- the C5 wouldn't be a conference anymore, and lose their automatic bid.
-- the C5 would then sue the bejeezus out of the football schools.

Adding DePaul and Marquette was a compromise so that the C7 and football could amicably split down the road; it was EXPECTED to happen within five years of the Mega Big East, but the NCAA rule change adding non-conference games let the BE get tons of NCAA bids; so they stayed together until this past year.

A couple of observations. First, the C7 voted to admit Tulane, so it's hard to argue admitting them was the last straw. Losing Louisville and Fox's offer of a TV contract were the combined last straw.

Second, regarding your last point, it is true that the C5 had insufficient membership to qualify as a continuing conference, but so did the football schools following the loss of BC. Notre Dame held the swing vote to control the destiny of the conference and sided with the C5 to hold the conference together raher than allow a split. You are correct that taking in DePaul and Marquette was part of the compromise, in part to facilitate a potential future split.

(04-01-2014 05:24 PM)orangefan Wrote:  A couple of observations. First, the C7 voted to admit Tulane, so it's hard to argue admitting them was the last straw. Losing Louisville and Fox's offer of a TV contract.

Thanks. The fan did make a nice response to what I noted. But I don't see how the C-7's vote could have possibly been overridden. After all, ECU was initially admitted for football-only and not all sports. So logic says that w/o the C-7's approval, Tulane was also only entering as football only.

Again, I do wish that the Big East had not split. I always liked the idea of sharing a conference with the C-7 schools. I'd like think that we could have added three more non-football schools as a compromise.

I believe the Big 12 made a severe long term error in grabbing TCU instead of Louisville. I think the same thing with the Big East grabbing Butler and to a lesser extent, Creighton. I don't really see Butler being too much of an asset post-Brad Stevens ... plus they are not Catholic (another head-scratcher). St. Louis and Dayton are both better long term adds in my opinion.

I think the Creighton add will be one that really gets looked at with a microscope in 5-10 years. Even moreso than Butler. At least Butler's location makes sense. Creighton I think everyone wonders how good they'll be in 5-10 years.

SLU I think is probably in over Creighton right now if Majerus is still alive.

(04-04-2014 04:09 PM)MemTGRS Wrote:  I believe the Big 12 made a severe long term error in grabbing TCU instead of Louisville. I think the same thing with the Big East grabbing Butler and to a lesser extent, Creighton. I don't really see Butler being too much of an asset post-Brad Stevens ... plus they are not Catholic (another head-scratcher). St. Louis and Dayton are both better long term adds in my opinion.

The B12 needed somebody who could start right away so they could meet their TV inventory commitments. TCU and BYU were the only schools that could really do that, and BYU had too many conditions. When Missouri was selected by the SEC, WVU was willing to sue the Big East to get out on short notice. Louisville, though, was not willing to do so, which is ultimately why WVU got its invite. I agree, though, that the B12 should have gone after UL as number 11, even if they had no immediate plans to go to 12.

I do miss conference games with Memphis quite a bit.

I think the Big East is going to stay where it is...why start with one number and move to another.

Stever, You may be right on Coach Majerus. Jim Crews has done a good job, but it's hard being Rick.

(04-04-2014 05:27 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(04-04-2014 04:09 PM)MemTGRS Wrote:  I believe the Big 12 made a severe long term error in grabbing TCU instead of Louisville. I think the same thing with the Big East grabbing Butler and to a lesser extent, Creighton. I don't really see Butler being too much of an asset post-Brad Stevens ... plus they are not Catholic (another head-scratcher). St. Louis and Dayton are both better long term adds in my opinion.

The B12 needed somebody who could start right away so they could meet their TV inventory commitments. TCU and BYU were the only schools that could really do that, and BYU had too many conditions. When Missouri was selected by the SEC, WVU was willing to sue the Big East to get out on short notice. Louisville, though, was not willing to do so, which is ultimately why WVU got its invite. I agree, though, that the B12 should have gone after UL as number 11, even if they had no immediate plans to go to 12.

Yeah, TCU was able to move immediately. But conference memberships are 1,000 year decisions. Thus it is puzzling that the availability of ONE YEAR drives a choice.

(04-01-2014 05:24 PM)orangefan Wrote:  A couple of observations. First, the C7 voted to admit Tulane, so it's hard to argue admitting them was the last straw. Losing Louisville and Fox's offer of a TV contract were the combined last straw.

Second, regarding your last point, it is true that the C5 had insufficient membership to qualify as a continuing conference, but so did the football schools following the loss of BC. Notre Dame held the swing vote to control the destiny of the conference and sided with the C5 to hold the conference together raher than allow a split. You are correct that taking in DePaul and Marquette was part of the compromise, in part to facilitate a potential future split.

I find it odd the Marquette AD would say what he said. His comments were public, but his vote wasn't. The Big East announced it was unanimous, but it makes sense to me that every conference is always going to SAY it's unanimous, you know? (Like, they'll vote, see what the numbers are; then the nay votes change their votes so it's unanimous so it looks better).

There were published minutes of meetings from 2003.

I'm not sure what the exact timing of that was (and which of the remaining football schools were in the meeting)

As you recall, the initial offer by the ACC was to Syracuse, Miami and BC; but then Va Tech made their political power-play (UVa was not permitted by the state board to vote for an ACC expansion that did not include VT) -- and then NC State's chancellor didn't vote for BC because she was out of the country and blindsided by the Virginia politics and wanted to further study travel with BC/VT instead of BC/Syracuse (I want to say she didn't vote for VT either, but VT's membership passed without her vote, and BC didn't; but I'd have to google and confirm that).

So it's possible I'm referencing a meeting involving Va Tech and not BC/Syracuse; and you're referencing one involving Syracuse and not BC/VT; and we're both "right."

Although, most of this is closed door rumor leakage, so odds are, we're getting two slightly different versions, and we're really close on seeing this the same way.

With 11 teams remaining, whichever side Notre Dame went with would have had an autobid to the basketball tournament, and the other side wouldn't have. Hence the Mega Big East with Marquette & DePaul.

I think Creighton fits with the new Big East much better than Butler because Creighton has Big East infrastructure.

You look at the arena size and game environment in the 2013 MVC and Atlantic 10 there's clear differences in facilities, attendance.

Xavier and Creighton had big, modern, full venues.
Dayton and Wichita State had an old but renovated full venues.
Saint Louis has a new venue, but hasn't historically been a 12,000+ attendance program.

The surprise to me was Butler over Dayton; but two Final Fours is tough to argue with.

Remember it's a two-way street: The Big East is going to help Butler recruit, and the money is going to help them upgrade faciltiies.