As Washington and the Europeans – and especially the UK – continue to decry Russian military aggression, the US and Russians have quietly entered into intense negotiations on a compromise for resolving their dispute over Ukraine, debkafile’s Washington and Moscow sources report.

Moscow insists on keeping in place the military forces which took control of Crimea over the weekend, but is ready to discuss terms for restraining the Russian army from advancing into the Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine.
The exchanges between the two powers are going through Berlin. The German government is making every effort to dispel the winds of war coming in from the east. Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Vladimir Putin conferred Sunday night by phone and decided to talk again about ways of promoting the negotiations.

Our sources were unable to confirm that Merkel ever said to President Barack Obama when she reported on the conversation in reference to Putin that “she was not sure he was in touch with reality. He lives in another world.”

Senior official sources reported instead that the chancellor had proposed to Putin that Russian troops be withdrawn in stages from Crimea and their place taken by European Union observers.

She also suggested that the interim government provide guarantees to refrain from occupying the regions vacated by the Russian army or harming the Russian-speaking populations of Ukraine.

In effect, Chancellor Merkel added her voice to a formulation taking shape in consultations Sunday at EU and NATO headquarters in Brussels, which called for “an inclusive political process in Ukraine based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities and the rule of law, which fulfills the democratic aspirations of the entire Ukrainian people.”

Monday, EU foreign ministers began considering how these lofty principles could be applied in practice. One idea gaining ground was for European contact groups to circulate Ukraine and discuss arrangements based on these principles with local authorities.
However, according to our US and Russian sources, Putin is after hard, practical strategic gains, principally, a demilitarized Crimea that would not threaten Russia from its western doorstep.
In fact, the Russian president has couched his demands for further negotiations under four headings:

1. The Kiev government whichever form it takes must sign an obligation to abstain from any ties with NATO.
2. Neither the US, NATO or any other power will deploy X-Band or BX-1 radar stations on Ukraine territory whether on land, sea or air. This guarantee would additionally cover elements of an anti-missile missile shield and ballistic missiles placing Russia in their sights.
3. Restrictions will govern the types of weapons allowed the Ukrainian army.
4. Local military bodies will be established to protect the Russian-speaking and ethnic Russian regions of Ukraine.
Putin emphasized in his conversation with Merkel that, until those four conditions are met, Russian forces would remain where they are in Crimea and if this was deemed necesssary, advance into other parts of Ukraine.

http://app.debka.com/p/article/23724/Mos...eld-there-

Putin: "let me keep what I took, and maybe I won't take anything else".

I told you Kerry's "negotiation" would be to simply ask which half of the Ukraine Putin wanted to keep.

(03-03-2014 08:43 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  As Washington and the Europeans – and especially the UK – continue to decry Russian military aggression, the US and Russians have quietly entered into intense negotiations on a compromise for resolving their dispute over Ukraine, debkafile’s Washington and Moscow sources report.

Moscow insists on keeping in place the military forces which took control of Crimea over the weekend, but is ready to discuss terms for restraining the Russian army from advancing into the Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine.
The exchanges between the two powers are going through Berlin. The German government is making every effort to dispel the winds of war coming in from the east. Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Vladimir Putin conferred Sunday night by phone and decided to talk again about ways of promoting the negotiations.

Our sources were unable to confirm that Merkel ever said to President Barack Obama when she reported on the conversation in reference to Putin that “she was not sure he was in touch with reality. He lives in another world.”

Senior official sources reported instead that the chancellor had proposed to Putin that Russian troops be withdrawn in stages from Crimea and their place taken by European Union observers.

She also suggested that the interim government provide guarantees to refrain from occupying the regions vacated by the Russian army or harming the Russian-speaking populations of Ukraine.

In effect, Chancellor Merkel added her voice to a formulation taking shape in consultations Sunday at EU and NATO headquarters in Brussels, which called for “an inclusive political process in Ukraine based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities and the rule of law, which fulfills the democratic aspirations of the entire Ukrainian people.”

Monday, EU foreign ministers began considering how these lofty principles could be applied in practice. One idea gaining ground was for European contact groups to circulate Ukraine and discuss arrangements based on these principles with local authorities.
However, according to our US and Russian sources, Putin is after hard, practical strategic gains, principally, a demilitarized Crimea that would not threaten Russia from its western doorstep.
In fact, the Russian president has couched his demands for further negotiations under four headings:

1. The Kiev government whichever form it takes must sign an obligation to abstain from any ties with NATO.
2. Neither the US, NATO or any other power will deploy X-Band or BX-1 radar stations on Ukraine territory whether on land, sea or air. This guarantee would additionally cover elements of an anti-missile missile shield and ballistic missiles placing Russia in their sights.
3. Restrictions will govern the types of weapons allowed the Ukrainian army.
4. Local military bodies will be established to protect the Russian-speaking and ethnic Russian regions of Ukraine.
Putin emphasized in his conversation with Merkel that, until those four conditions are met, Russian forces would remain where they are in Crimea and if this was deemed necesssary, advance into other parts of Ukraine.

http://app.debka.com/p/article/23724/Mos...eld-there-

I'd tell Russia. No thanks. Putin's government is looking for an end game. I'd say no NATO for Ukraine for 2 years. But only if Russia leaves Crimea now. No restrictions on military purchases for Ukraine's military. No Russian involvement at all in the Crimea.

And we should tell Merkel to SHMU. She's a Russian stooge. Russia's markets open in 20 minutes.

Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

And its hard for anyone to take Putin at his word anyway. He's never kept it ever. So my counter would be

1) You leave Crimea
2) We'll put the Koreans or Brazilians to supervise fair elections in Crimea
3) We will treat Ukraine as a truly independent nation, with the right to purchase arms and join alliances as they see fit.
4) In return, we won't strangle your economy with sanctions.

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

(03-04-2014 12:45 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

Putin is backing down. He's ordered his troops in the Eastern Ukrainian border back to their barracks.

Bush screwed up Georgia.

Sorry to disappoint if you want this to be some fiasco for Obama. Its looking like Putin has lost all of non-Crimean Ukraine (and perhaps the Crimea too), and billions of dollars. And has p*ssed off the entire world.

(03-04-2014 01:28 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 12:45 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

Putin is backing down. He's ordered his troops in the Eastern Ukrainian border back to their barracks.

Bush screwed up Georgia.

Sorry to disappoint if you want this to be some fiasco for Obama. Its looking like Putin has lost all of non-Crimean Ukraine (and perhaps the Crimea too), and billions of dollars. And has p*ssed off the entire world.

Really? And we don't even know what the supposed "costs" are. And Obama doesn't even have Uk and German support. Please...

Plus, Putin still has troops in Ukraine. Come back later when that is no longer the case.

And lastly, Obama has lost every single diplomatic battle he's had. He can't get the Iranians to give up nukes or stop the Syrians from using chem weapons, but he is going to tell Russia to get out of a country it controlled in the past. You really are a Kool-Aid drinker.

(03-04-2014 01:41 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:28 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 12:45 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

Putin is backing down. He's ordered his troops in the Eastern Ukrainian border back to their barracks.

Bush screwed up Georgia.

Sorry to disappoint if you want this to be some fiasco for Obama. Its looking like Putin has lost all of non-Crimean Ukraine (and perhaps the Crimea too), and billions of dollars. And has p*ssed off the entire world.

Really? And we don't even know what the supposed "costs" are. And Obama doesn't even have Uk and German support. Please...

Plus, Putin still has troops in Ukraine. Come back later when that is no longer the case.

And lastly, Obama has lost every single diplomatic battle he's had. He can't get the Iranians to give up nukes or stop the Syrians from using chem weapons, but he is going to tell Russia to get out of a country it controlled in the past. You really are a Kool-Aid drinker.

Angela Merkel has been in the bag for Russia for years now. The UK's bankers are too greedy for stolen Russian loot. No Republican would have done any better.

(03-04-2014 10:39 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:41 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:28 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 12:45 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

Putin is backing down. He's ordered his troops in the Eastern Ukrainian border back to their barracks.

Bush screwed up Georgia.

Sorry to disappoint if you want this to be some fiasco for Obama. Its looking like Putin has lost all of non-Crimean Ukraine (and perhaps the Crimea too), and billions of dollars. And has p*ssed off the entire world.

Really? And we don't even know what the supposed "costs" are. And Obama doesn't even have Uk and German support. Please...

Plus, Putin still has troops in Ukraine. Come back later when that is no longer the case.

And lastly, Obama has lost every single diplomatic battle he's had. He can't get the Iranians to give up nukes or stop the Syrians from using chem weapons, but he is going to tell Russia to get out of a country it controlled in the past. You really are a Kool-Aid drinker.

Angela Merkel has been in the bag for Russia for years now. The UK's bankers are too greedy for stolen Russian loot. No Republican would have done any better.

Which is it? Is Putin done or has Obama failed because he can't get Germany and the UK on board? You guys like to blame everyone except for Obama. Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney saw Russia for what they were. Obama was somewhere in fantasy land with his mom jeans. He is horrible at world affairs. He hasn't won one single international challenge during his entire Presidency. He has turned our strength, won through money and blood, into nothing. He is seen as a paper tiger in the world and even our allies don't trust him. Recently Poland has asked for clarification on when NATO would come to their aid b/c they've seen what has happened to the Ukraine and don't trust Obama. Republicans would have done better because they would not be in this position. Romney would not have surrendered and actively work to damage our position as a world leader. Obama's weakness and failures in other international conflicts led Putin to believe that the US and Europe would do nothing if he invaded the Ukraine, just like he did in Georgia. And, he is correct.

(03-04-2014 01:41 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:28 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 12:45 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Rather have Condi Rice heading this discussion over BenGhazi Hilliary or SwiftBoat Johnny.

Our leaders suck, and were elected twice by our moronic voters. We get the government we deserve.

I completely agree with you on that one.
---
This is going to end poorly for the Ukraine. People need to stop pretending that Obama is some kind of world leader/negotiator and will punish Putin real good. He isn't. He couldn't stop Iran's nuclear program and he lost badly when he stuck his nose in Syria. He can't even garner the support of the UK or Germany for sanctions or asset freezes (although the last thing we need to give Obama is the power to play with ordinary peoples' bank accounts when they've committed no crime). And no sanctions will come. It is day 5, and there hasn't been a single official delineated cost or consequence. Regardless, IMO both are playing the long game and do not trust Obama. I don't think the Ukraine means all that much to them and is a small price to pay in order to keep Putin happy, at a time when they are not sure the US is the ally it has been in the past.

And let's face it, we can't really kick them out of the G8. It's been one of the few ways that the West has been able to have meaningful dialogue with Russia. There is no stomach in Europe to have another cold war by ostracizing Russia for any great length of time. And while other countries can deny Russia money for a few months, he can turn off their heat. He'll be fine as a dictator, but democratic governments aren't going to face their constituents and say, "We're suffering for the Ukraine". As to the markets in Russia, who cares (btw-it's hurting everyone)? Over the last 20 yrs, our markets have lost great value and years later were okay. The same will happen in Russia once this thing is settled. Not b/c they are great, but b/c nothing really changed except the fear.

If you really want to see the future, then look at Georgia. Russian troops are still there and people died in a week long military excursion. The world was mad, but a few months later and voila la...forgotten. The same will happen here.

Putin is backing down. He's ordered his troops in the Eastern Ukrainian border back to their barracks.

Bush screwed up Georgia.

Sorry to disappoint if you want this to be some fiasco for Obama. Its looking like Putin has lost all of non-Crimean Ukraine (and perhaps the Crimea too), and billions of dollars. And has p*ssed off the entire world.

Really? And we don't even know what the supposed "costs" are. And Obama doesn't even have Uk and German support. Please...

Plus, Putin still has troops in Ukraine. Come back later when that is no longer the case.

And lastly, Obama has lost every single diplomatic battle he's had. He can't get the Iranians to give up nukes or stop the Syrians from using chem weapons, but he is going to tell Russia to get out of a country it controlled in the past. You really are a Kool-Aid drinker.

Typical piece of shiit liberal Tom is... Always gotta blame Bush... Always. I wish I could believe that one day the liberal would grow up.