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Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 05:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 02:32 PM)mlb Wrote:  This is a long time in coming.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101440355

[Image: US-defense-chart.png]

This comparison is somewhat misleading.

One, our largest single cost is personnel (about 1/3 of total or more, depending on how much labor burden you include), and there are several countries listed (Russia, China, India, Brazil, Saudi) where per capita incomes are such that they can provide far more personnel for far less cost. If China or Russia had the same HR cost structure as we do, they would be larger than total expenditure number on personnel costs alone.

Two, not all of those countries have the same missions and objectives. Russia and China probably come closest, but they are still continental land powers. Germany, Italy, France, and UK still structure their military around NATO partnership obligations with the expectations that the US would play big brother in any fight (sort of like we did with Libya). Brazil, India, and Japan are interesting ones. Right now they are focused primarily on self-defense, but all are starting to show some offensive tendencies. Japan has a new class of "destroyers" that are basically small aricraft carriers for helicopters--a long way from the "tin can" concept. Brazil is going to be building nuclear submarines, and has constructed a fairly amazing new facility to build them. India has a new aircraft carrier and is building another.

I'm actually working on peer-reveiwed journal article on the subject of how to get more defense for less cost.

First, the key to me is to do what Israel and Sweden and Switzerland have mastered and maintain a bunch of the strength in reserve components. All three punch way above their weight that way. That's actually what Russia and China do, too, so any worries that it would take time to mobilize reserve forces can be mitigated by the fact that our potential enemies would need time to do the same. So I would bring home most of the troops from Europe and Japan (maybe keep the troops in Korea because of the risk, but come home from everywhere else), and reduce the active force to about 1,000,000 (365,000 Army, 250,000 each Navy and Air Force, 135,000 Marines) in exchange for a 900,000 increase in reserves, giving us a potential end strength of about 2.5 million. That still comes at a savings of $20 billion or so a year, because of the difference in cost between actives and reserves. While you're at it, take about a 15-20% cut to defense constractors and other DOD civilians, saving another $10-20 billion a year.

Second, adopt the Elmo Zumwalt "high-low mix" approach to procurement. It's a waste of money to have Arleigh Burkes doing pirate patrol in the Indian Ocean when something like a Perry frigate could do the job at least as well in a low-threat environment for maybe 1/6 the capital cost. Build some Ford CVA's at $10-12 billion a pop, but buld an equal number of smaller and perhaps more versatile carriers (maybe a hybird CATOBAR/STOBAR/STOVL like the Soviet Ulyanov'sk design) at $4-6 bilion a pop. Don't build (or at least don't build so many) of the frightfully expensive projects like the LCS, the D-1000 Zumwalts, the V-22, the Marines' EFV, the army's next generation fighting vehicle. Buy some NATO off-the-shelf designs rather than spending top dollar to develop everything on the cutting edge of technology--Eurofighter Typhoons, Frech Rafales, or SAAB Grypens, or simply more F/A-18s instead of so many F35s at twice the price; Horizon or FREMM or Spanish F-100 frigates for $1 billlion instead of Burkes for $3 billion; the MEKO CSL or updated Perry/Knox frigates for half the price of the LCS; Spanish/Australian Juan Carlos amphibs for half the price of the new LHA/LHD; British Albions at $800 million instead of the San Antonio class (which are disasters) at $2 billion. It's actually often a tactical advantage to mix some low-tech in with the high-tech. The Brits in the Falklands found that their super high tech AAW Type 42 destroyers had a critical weakness that the Argentines exposed (their radars were designed for use at sea, so they couldn't pick out Argentine aircraft approaching over land from the ground clutter), so they had to send them out with low-tech Type 22 general purpose frigates as escorts to act as "goalkeepers" with their point defense Sea Wolf systems. This approach could probably save another $20 billion a year.

Third, figure out what missions to emphasize and align the forces with the missions. One mission I'd drop totally is limited warfare (Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.). If you are going to fight, use overwhelming force. If you're not in to win, don't go in at all. In the long run, overwhelming force from the start saves lives and money. I would take a long look at setting up the Army and Air Force primarily to prosecute conventional wars, and reconfigure the Marines as a commando/special warfare/expeditionary specialty force--kind of a much larger and more capable version of what the Royal Marines have become. Special forces units of the other branches--Green Berets, SEALs, AF Special Operations Forces--would be retained to augment the basic Marine teams when their particular expertise is required. No more "wining their hearts and minds," at least not for the military. Those missions are almost always a waste of time. But if we're going to insist on doing that, let the Peace Corps do it. Let the mlitary focus on warfighting.

I'm still developing ideas, but this is the way I'm thinking.
Interesting thoughts. Thanks for posting. 04-cheers
02-24-2014 05:45 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
To clarify costs of active slots versus reserves, it costs about $100,000/year to fill an active slot, versus about $25,000/year to fill a reserve slot. So if we swap 400,000 actives for 900,000 reserves, the cost savings are 400,000 x $100,000 = $40 billion, minus 900,000 x $25,000 = $22.5 billion, or $17.5 billion net.
02-24-2014 06:04 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  US has no business getting involved in world's affairs.

I see this as legitimate.

I concur. It is high time we scale back. This BTW does not mean we are suddenly are not capable of defending ourselves or responding to dangers. We do not need boots on the ground to necessarily do that.

Count this as one of few thing I totally agree with zero about. I guess this bumps him up to about .005 with me now.
02-24-2014 06:09 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 02:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That graph is all you need to know.

Yep..and all you need to know that the Industrial military complex is making policy. Barry should have done THIS in his first 100 days instead of the ACA.
02-24-2014 06:12 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 06:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  US has no business getting involved in world's affairs.
I see this as legitimate.
I concur. It is high time we scale back. This BTW does not mean we are suddenly are not capable of defending ourselves or responding to dangers. We do not need boots on the ground to necessarily do that.
Count this as one of few thing I totally agree with zero about. I guess this bumps him up to about .005 with me now.

I agree with this up to a point.

But if we're just hacking away to hit a budget number, we're going to get caught with our pants down and it's not going to be pretty. The war you don't prepare for is always the one you have to fight next. Ask the Brits about the Falklands. If Argentina had waited 6 months to invade, Hermes and Invincible and Intrepid would have been gone, and the Falklands would be the Malvinas today.

What we need to do is figure out how to have more capability for less cost. And there are ways to do it.
02-24-2014 06:16 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 03:05 PM)Crebman Wrote:  WWI - Wilson as president
WWII - Roosevelt as president

Do you honestly think the party affiliation of the president had anything to do with our presence in these wars?
02-24-2014 06:30 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 06:16 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 06:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  US has no business getting involved in world's affairs.
I see this as legitimate.
I concur. It is high time we scale back. This BTW does not mean we are suddenly are not capable of defending ourselves or responding to dangers. We do not need boots on the ground to necessarily do that.
Count this as one of few thing I totally agree with zero about. I guess this bumps him up to about .005 with me now.

I agree with this up to a point.

But if we're just hacking away to hit a budget number, we're going to get caught with our pants down and it's not going to be pretty. The war you don't prepare for is always the one you have to fight next. Ask the Brits about the Falklands. If Argentina had waited 6 months to invade, Hermes and Invincible and Intrepid would have been gone, and the Falklands would be the Malvinas today.

What we need to do is figure out how to have more capability for less cost. And there are ways to do it.

No argument from me.
02-24-2014 06:34 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 06:30 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 03:05 PM)Crebman Wrote:  WWI - Wilson as president
WWII - Roosevelt as president
Do you honestly think the party affiliation of the president had anything to do with our presence in these wars?

Actually, yes. It's one of those issues where the parties have sort of flipped. Republicans were the party of mind your own business historically. But that has obviously changed now.
02-24-2014 06:55 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 05:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  


What did Mark Twain say, figures don't lie but liars figure? There are a whole bunch or lies there.
02-24-2014 07:10 PM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #70
Re: RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 05:21 PM)mathenis89 Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 05:16 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  The Japanese stated one reason they attacked us was those film clips of us
having our Army and National Guard practice with fake guns and bombs.

Hahaha.

Feel free to cite THAT source.

Moron.

As much as this forum is free to argue there I'd no room to call names, I'm probably the youngest and most neutral to lurk/post on this board and you're more immature than I am. You never make arguments and just name call.
02-24-2014 07:18 PM
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olliebaba Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
Dexter, don't take Mathenis posts too seriously. In his mind he's the Einstein of this site. If you disagree with him you're the lowest of the low. I don't think he hasn't called someone something derogatory. 03-wink

I place him in the same place as Fitbud but without the name calling.
02-24-2014 07:30 PM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #72
Re: RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 07:30 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Dexter, don't take Mathenis posts too seriously. In his mind he's the Einstein of this site. If you disagree with him you're the lowest of the low. I don't think he hasn't called someone something derogatory. 03-wink

I place him in the same place as Fitbud but without the name calling.

I honestly respect fitbud and dmac, both are fairly reasonable in my opinion... I guess it must just be because I'm a libertarian but I agree with them a lot and think some of the conservatives on here can be a bit extreme (and racist).

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02-24-2014 08:15 PM
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WKUApollo Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 08:15 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  I honestly respect fitbud and dmac, both are fairly reasonable in my opinion... I guess it must just be because I'm a libertarian but I agree with them a lot and think some of the conservatives on here can be a bit extreme (and racist).

I haven't been here long but gotta agree with you about fitbud. I may disagree with many of his positions but I do respect him most of the time because there is a general effort on his part to discuss. He's strong willed about his opinions but who isn't on a political message board?
02-24-2014 08:22 PM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #74
Re: RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 08:22 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 08:15 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  I honestly respect fitbud and dmac, both are fairly reasonable in my opinion... I guess it must just be because I'm a libertarian but I agree with them a lot and think some of the conservatives on here can be a bit extreme (and racist).

I haven't been here long but gotta agree with you about fitbud. I may disagree with many of his positions but I do respect him most of the time because there is a general effort on his part to discuss. He's strong willed about his opinions but who isn't on a political message board?

Yeah I prefer if you have an opinion you should have an argument, and these two (unlike any of the other liberal leaning group) actually discuss and make points, the rest just name call and blame everything on the rep. both parties are at fault for everything, no one kid themselves of that, and we do spend to much on military but we also shouldn't cut it more than needed.

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02-24-2014 09:04 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
I think the reserve numbers must be increased by at least an equal amount. Without a strong conventional military we could be forced into using nukes. I also think the first "Peace Dividend" should come from elimination of the large military bases in Europe.
02-24-2014 09:18 PM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #76
Re: RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 02:32 PM)mlb Wrote:  This is a long time in coming.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101440355

[Image: US-defense-chart.png]

And this has nothing to do with troop levels

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02-24-2014 09:20 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 02:31 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 02:22 PM)EagleX Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 01:39 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 01:37 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  US has no business getting involved in world's affairs.

I see this as legitimate.

What if we go to war with China or Russia? Draft?

we lose. bad. fast.

doubtful. How are they going to beat us? Our naval fleet would allow us to be on their door step in a matter of days pummeling them into the ground.

Nobody can match our naval power and as England showed for centuries, you can be one of the most powerful countries in the world with a powerful navy.

China doesn't have the capabilities to bring the fight to us. They'd be on the defensive the entire time.

They don't have the raw materials to beat us. Our navy can shut off their shipments of important raw materials and oil.

We have it all if we need it.

I guess they could import oil from Russia, but right now, Russia does not have an oil pipeline to China. Even if they did, it wouldn't be hard to take one of those out with the push of a button from thousands of miles away.

You do realize China is building a missile for the sole purpose of destroying aircraft carriers? Without an aircraft carrier a carrier battle group is virtually useless.
02-24-2014 09:22 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 06:30 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-24-2014 03:05 PM)Crebman Wrote:  WWI - Wilson as president
WWII - Roosevelt as president

Do you honestly think the party affiliation of the president had anything to do with our presence in these wars?

Not really, and not saying it was the fault of a liberal or conservative. But the statement that conservatives start wars was even more untruthful.

You give the person that made that comment any grief?

Fact is, most times, it's more like who happens to be in office when crap happens.
02-24-2014 09:29 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
(02-24-2014 09:18 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  I think the reserve numbers must be increased by at least an equal amount. Without a strong conventional military we could be forced into using nukes. I also think the first "Peace Dividend" should come from elimination of the large military bases in Europe.

We have allowed a bunch of nations to be able to basically "unfund" defense because we are there defending them. It is time to either pack up and leave or make them pay for the security we give them. We simply can not afford it any more. Surely there are plenty of places we can exit without affecting defense readiness. When was the last time we actually left somewhere? It seems that never happens.
02-24-2014 09:45 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Obama To Cut Military To Lowest Level Since 1940......
We have two serious issues that no one has mentioned.

First, we have two decades of active deployment that has been studied by the world. Our operational tactics are common knowledge now. The capabilities of our personnel and our equipment are very well known. We are an open book.

Second, we cannot manufacture our weapons domestically. China, in particular, is a key supplier. Not only are they making parts for our weapons systems, but they are cloning them as well. China is moving into the commercial aviation industry. They are indeed building "carrier killer" missiles. We won WWII with manufacturing superiority. China holds that card today.
02-24-2014 10:06 PM
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