I found a newspaper article that Earl Boykins ave. 26 ppg one of his seasons at EMU.

Today, no EMU players (two) combined average 26 ppg. Nope no go to guy who can drop 20 ppg and be that crunch time go to guy.

No superstars? Yep, no superstars. NO superstars in the MAC in MANY years. Who was the last NBA 1st round draft choice from the MAC??? or second round draft choice.

No one in the MAC ave. 20 ppg or 10 rebounds per game. That's true.

I have been following recruiting for 20+ years and whereas the MAC used to be able to recruit them now they don't.

I blame the Internet for revealing prospects which formerly would be hidden.

Too many kids doing the AAU circuit and getting exposed.

Too many 'one and done' college players causing big schools to churn their lineups.

Too many good prospects leaving the state for other states which don't have the talent that MI has (or had).

Like good prospects going to Iowa State (who the hell heard of Iowa State hoops 20 years ago) or Rhode Island (ditto comment here). or 10 or 20 years who would have thought a top MI h.s. prospect would have signed with VCU.

And last, but not least, has greatly frustrated one of our posters... and those of us who want to see MAC teams in the Sweet 16 more than once in five years.

I think the problem is 'systematic' and not specific to EMU, CMU, WMU, BGSU, Miami, NIU, BSU, etc.

We have a few 'good' MAC teams but NOT ONE top 40 team...

To do a quick pivot, this is one reason I'm fascinated by what the Rowtheboat crew is doing for FB in K'zoo.

This will be the best 'experiment' I'll have seen since maybe Marshall in the late 90s, where a MAC team recruited like a decent BCS team.

They will show if a program can attain a high level of recruiting, sustain it, and then win BIG on the field.

When I go to Vegas next month, I'll ask if I can have $10 on WMU to win the 2016 MACC. Maybe they'll give me 50:1 or even better given that WMU didn't even beat... last year. (this is tongue in cheek. During summer they'll post odds for the 2014 MACC. No 2015 or beyond. I could have bet BG but hey who would have thought anyone could have beaten NIU.).

This started in the Boone years more worried about keeping their jobs and universities afraid of wasting money by firing bad and in our case terrible coaches!

(02-09-2014 09:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  This started in the Boone years more worried about keeping their jobs and universities afraid of wasting money by firing bad and in our case terrible coaches!

Bad coaches?

Dave Pilopovich is head coach at Air Force Academy.

Andy Moore is an assistant coach at Va. Tech.

LaMonta Stone, asst. coach at BGSU, is causing UB fans to get upset by talking or yelling at a UB player yesterday. LaMonta coached at The Ohio State University after coaching at EMU.

The problem with the Boone era was recruiting. He got 'blacklisted' in Detroit after Barnes got fired. Heard that from good sources. There were issues with some players from Detroit and they were gone and EMU (and Boone) took a big hit in Detroit. Believe it or not, one who was big on the negative recruiting was Charles Ramsey, himself. Truth now be told, that is one reason I never warmed up to Ramsey and his teams at EMU. (I followed George Mason here during their heydays).

Only during the last year of Ramsey's tenure did I attend any games. Andy Moore came up to me and asked: "Where have you been?"

There used to be very, very good coaches in Detroit, including Murphy, and very good h.s. players and then the whole Detroit PSL went into the dumpster as the city cratered.

Dear steve,
I think you are missing the point about bad coaches as superfan pointed out. As head coaches, Boone and Ramsey, were probably the two worst we've had in the modern era. They may have had assistants that went on to better things, but assistants don't run the show. You even mention that Boone had a problem with recruiting, and I agree with you on that point. Maybe with Ramsey too. So, back to the point that super was making, these coaches were bad head coaches.

(02-09-2014 09:43 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 09:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  This started in the Boone years more worried about keeping their jobs and universities afraid of wasting money by firing bad and in our case terrible coaches!

Bad coaches?

Dave Pilopovich is head coach at Air Force Academy.

Andy Moore is an assistant coach at Va. Tech.

LaMonta Stone, asst. coach at BGSU, is causing UB fans to get upset by talking or yelling at a UB player yesterday. LaMonta coached at The Ohio State University after coaching at EMU.

The problem with the Boone era was recruiting. He got 'blacklisted' in Detroit after Barnes got fired. Heard that from good sources. There were issues with some players from Detroit and they were gone and EMU (and Boone) took a big hit in Detroit. Believe it or not, one who was big on the negative recruiting was Charles Ramsey, himself. Truth now be told, that is one reason I never warmed up to Ramsey and his teams at EMU. (I followed George Mason here during their heydays).

Only during the last year of Ramsey's tenure did I attend any games. Andy Moore came up to me and asked: "Where have you been?"

There used to be very, very good coaches in Detroit, including Murphy, and very good h.s. players and then the whole Detroit PSL went into the dumpster as the city cratered.

The MAC went from 10th best conference to 15th in just 10 years I'm not talking just EMU but the whole conference. Barnes was bad it got worse under Boone and it was that he couldn't or he refused make the connection. I teach and talked to local coaches here Barnes started it but Boone keeper it going with his arrogance. Ramsey just couldn't get it done he had no local connection and was lost.

(02-09-2014 09:58 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear steve,
I think you are missing the point about bad coaches as superfan pointed out. As head coaches, Boone and Ramsey, were probably the two worst we've had in the modern era. They may have had assistants that went on to better things, but assistants don't run the show. You even mention that Boone had a problem with recruiting, and I agree with you on that point. Maybe with Ramsey too. So, back to the point that super was making, these coaches were bad head coaches.

Not just here but look at the whole conference! One university cant take a whole conference down like this! It has to be an idea that drives it.

The question is? Why did the conference fall so far?

(02-09-2014 10:04 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  The question is? Why did the conference fall so far?

I think I answered it in my initial post in this thread.

To be more specific, I think it was recruiting. E.g., the A-10 has become a big time rival for mid-major conferences.

A-10 has hurt our recruiting. They have depleted the CAA (e.g., Richmond, VCU, George Mason).

They have taken a pound of flesh from a number of mid-major basketball conferences.

Here is a list of top 5 seniors from MI:

http://www.alleyesonuhoops.com/2014-top-ten.html

#2 is former A-10 school, Xavier; #3 is a new A-10 school, VCU, and #5 is long time A-10, Dayton.

MI is getting picked. The days Super speaks are days when the MAC was up and A-10 isn't what it is today.

(02-09-2014 10:45 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 10:04 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  The question is? Why did the conference fall so far?

I think I answered it in my initial post in this thread.

To be more specific, I think it was recruiting. E.g., the A-10 has become a big time rival for mid-major conferences.

A-10 has hurt our recruiting. They have depleted the CAA (e.g., Richmond, VCU, George Mason).

They have taken a pound of flesh from a number of mid-major basketball conferences.

Here is a list of top 5 seniors from MI:

http://www.alleyesonuhoops.com/2014-top-ten.html

#2 is former A-10 school, Xavier; #3 is a new A-10 school, VCU, and #5 is long time A-10, Dayton.

MI is getting picked. The days Super speaks are days when the MAC was up and A-10 isn't what it is today.

Doesn't explain the whole conference falling 5 places. It's got to be coaching and recruiting. People keep clambering recruit locally! A lot of families mover out starting in the early 2000s yes for Michigan that is when the rescission started. But it's being picked clean by others of what little is left . we need recruiters that can those jewels in the ruff and learn how to build a "team" around them!

By the way, to the initial statement of go-to guys and Earl Boykins...

Earl Boykins freshman year: 12.5 ppg on 41% shooting (34% 3pt) in 32.5 minutes
Raven Lee freshman year thus far: 10.3 ppg on 38% shooting (35.5% 3pt) in 21.7 minutes

Ray is averaging more points per 32 than Boykins did his freshman year. The kid can score. If he starts playing within himself and lets the game come to him, he can be a VERY high scoring guard. He has the tools. Whether he builds upon them or not is up to him.

Barnes was the worst thing to happen to EMU. Not even a close second. He destroyed the program.

I personally think Boone was a good coach but a bad fit for EMU.

(02-09-2014 09:43 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 09:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  This started in the Boone years more worried about keeping their jobs and universities afraid of wasting money by firing bad and in our case terrible coaches!

Bad coaches?

Dave Pilopovich is head coach at Air Force Academy.

Andy Moore is an assistant coach at Va. Tech.

LaMonta Stone, asst. coach at BGSU, is causing UB fans to get upset by talking or yelling at a UB player yesterday. LaMonta coached at The Ohio State University after coaching at EMU.

The problem with the Boone era was recruiting. He got 'blacklisted' in Detroit after Barnes got fired. Heard that from good sources. There were issues with some players from Detroit and they were gone and EMU (and Boone) took a big hit in Detroit. Believe it or not, one who was big on the negative recruiting was Charles Ramsey, himself. Truth now be told, that is one reason I never warmed up to Ramsey and his teams at EMU. (I followed George Mason here during their heydays).

Only during the last year of Ramsey's tenure did I attend any games. Andy Moore came up to me and asked: "Where have you been?"

There used to be very, very good coaches in Detroit, including Murphy, and very good h.s. players and then the whole Detroit PSL went into the dumpster as the city cratered.

Another problem with Boone was his relationships with the players he inherited guys like Warner, Hess and CJ decided to transfer out or just quit rather than play for Boone.

(02-09-2014 11:33 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  By the way, to the initial statement of go-to guys and Earl Boykins...

Earl Boykins freshman year: 12.5 ppg on 41% shooting (34% 3pt) in 32.5 minutes
Raven Lee freshman year thus far: 10.3 ppg on 38% shooting (35.5% 3pt) in 21.7 minutes

Ray is averaging more points per 32 than Boykins did his freshman year. The kid can score. If he starts playing within himself and lets the game come to him, he can be a VERY high scoring guard. He has the tools. Whether he builds upon them or not is up to him.

But earl was a play maker, and had Brain leading the team his first year.

One explanation popular on the main MAC board is that the MAC put money into football en lieu of hoops and the non-FB conferences, e.g., A-10 put big bucks into basketball and won the day.

Classic case: VCU which is paying Smart over 1M per year while EMU plays Murphy 1/4 of Smart's salary.

MAC coaching hires have not been great and it is getting to be that thing that conferences such as A-10 and Mo. Valley are paying big, big buck for head coaches.

P.S. the MAC's effort in football has paid off: 1 BCS bid. Nearly a 2nd. typically 4 or 5 or 6 bowl bids per season. Miami would have been a BCS team in 2003 (?) if the rules in effect for recent years were in effect back then. (Marshall too the year they went undefeated).

(02-09-2014 12:57 PM)emu79 Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 09:43 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 09:34 AM)emussuperfan Wrote:  This started in the Boone years more worried about keeping their jobs and universities afraid of wasting money by firing bad and in our case terrible coaches!

Bad coaches?

Dave Pilopovich is head coach at Air Force Academy.

Andy Moore is an assistant coach at Va. Tech.

LaMonta Stone, asst. coach at BGSU, is causing UB fans to get upset by talking or yelling at a UB player yesterday. LaMonta coached at The Ohio State University after coaching at EMU.

The problem with the Boone era was recruiting. He got 'blacklisted' in Detroit after Barnes got fired. Heard that from good sources. There were issues with some players from Detroit and they were gone and EMU (and Boone) took a big hit in Detroit. Believe it or not, one who was big on the negative recruiting was Charles Ramsey, himself. Truth now be told, that is one reason I never warmed up to Ramsey and his teams at EMU. (I followed George Mason here during their heydays).

Only during the last year of Ramsey's tenure did I attend any games. Andy Moore came up to me and asked: "Where have you been?"

There used to be very, very good coaches in Detroit, including Murphy, and very good h.s. players and then the whole Detroit PSL went into the dumpster as the city cratered.

Another problem with Boone was his relationships with the players he inherited guys like Warner, Hess and CJ decided to transfer out or just quit rather than play for Boone.

This was very complicated:

Hess apparently was upset Steve Pettyjohn was made a captain and transferred to W&M.

Warner wanted to go home to Jacksonville. Not a Boone issue.

C.J. wanted to transfer and then decided he wanted to come back to the team and Boone said no. There reportedly were issues with C.J. which do not belong on a public forum.

Did Brad Soucie (sp) transfer out during Boone's tenure?

(02-09-2014 03:03 PM)emu79 Wrote:  Did Brad Soucie (sp) transfer out during Boone's tenure?

Braun.

(02-09-2014 11:33 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  By the way, to the initial statement of go-to guys and Earl Boykins...

Earl Boykins freshman year: 12.5 ppg on 41% shooting (34% 3pt) in 32.5 minutes
Raven Lee freshman year thus far: 10.3 ppg on 38% shooting (35.5% 3pt) in 21.7 minutes

Ray is averaging more points per 32 than Boykins did his freshman year. The kid can score. If he starts playing within himself and lets the game come to him, he can be a VERY high scoring guard. He has the tools. Whether he builds upon them or not is up to him.

agreed. Lee has the talent to be an elite scorer at this level. he just needs to put his game together. he's very wild and impulsive. there was one sequence yesterday where he lost the ball, made a bad defensive play, then tried to make up for it with a 3pointer that was from 25 feet out and missed badly. he needs to learn to keep his head to avoid compounding an initial error.

(02-09-2014 06:04 PM)EMUAARON Wrote:  

(02-09-2014 11:33 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  By the way, to the initial statement of go-to guys and Earl Boykins...

Earl Boykins freshman year: 12.5 ppg on 41% shooting (34% 3pt) in 32.5 minutes
Raven Lee freshman year thus far: 10.3 ppg on 38% shooting (35.5% 3pt) in 21.7 minutes

Ray is averaging more points per 32 than Boykins did his freshman year. The kid can score. If he starts playing within himself and lets the game come to him, he can be a VERY high scoring guard. He has the tools. Whether he builds upon them or not is up to him.

agreed. Lee has the talent to be an elite scorer at this level. he just needs to put his game together. he's very wild and impulsive. there was one sequence yesterday where he lost the ball, made a bad defensive play, then tried to make up for it with a 3pointer that was from 25 feet out and missed badly. he needs to learn to keep his head to avoid compounding an initial error.

Yep, the thing about Boykins is that he scored 26 ppg in '96 (Dial has 20) and Boykins was a great leader with great composure, etc.

Hopefully Talley is the leader and Lee the scorer next year.

Time for an unpaid reminder: Boykins and Dial go to the EMU HOF Saturday. :)