(12-06-2013 11:41 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This whole discussion misses a major point. No matter how much we pay wait staff, we're not going to build a middle class waiting tables. We are becoming a retail/service economy, and retail/service economies are like a donut--there's a big hole where the jobs needed to support a middle class would go.

We need to quit worrying about how much we pay wait staff and start figuring out how to create jobs that we CAN pay more. Those are jobs that actually add value in areas like manufacturing, extractive, and construction. Until we bring those back, we are just playing games with ourselves about stuff like this.

Construction related businesses are a dime a dozen and feel free to open a manufacturing plant. Nobody is building a retail/service economy. The only reason it works is people have the money to buy it. Retail and service managers make pretty good money and low the low-level staff make no less than a painter or entry construction job. If you want more of those jobs, we are going on the right track by printing money and trying to inflate another housing bubble. Bottom line is you start at the bottom and work your way up. You can make 6 figures as a successful restaurant manager or big box store manager while making over $50k managing a mall store or fast food restaurant if that is the route you want to take, but flipping burgers is low skill and doesn't command $15 per hour. If you want to make that, work your way up like your manager did while realizing you have no business fathering 8 kids.

But aren't wait staff just working their way through college or acting classes?

(12-06-2013 11:51 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Bottom line is you start at the bottom and work your way up.

Too hard for liberals. Why can't you just give them success?

I mean the average Pro-Discrimination Liberal find it too difficult to balance socializing, the new iPhone, laundry, their cat, Facebook, and their part-time job as a barista to worry about starting at the bottom and working their way up to success.

(12-06-2013 11:41 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This whole discussion misses a major point. No matter how much we pay wait staff, we're not going to build a middle class waiting tables. We are becoming a retail/service economy, and retail/service economies are like a donut--there's a big hole where the jobs needed to support a middle class would go.

We need to quit worrying about how much we pay wait staff and start figuring out how to create jobs that we CAN pay more. Those are jobs that actually add value in areas like manufacturing, extractive, and construction.

It's not hard to figure that out. But it takes hard work, and the left doesn't like that bit.

(12-06-2013 11:51 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 11:41 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This whole discussion misses a major point. No matter how much we pay wait staff, we're not going to build a middle class waiting tables. We are becoming a retail/service economy, and retail/service economies are like a donut--there's a big hole where the jobs needed to support a middle class would go.
We need to quit worrying about how much we pay wait staff and start figuring out how to create jobs that we CAN pay more. Those are jobs that actually add value in areas like manufacturing, extractive, and construction. Until we bring those back, we are just playing games with ourselves about stuff like this.

Construction related businesses are a dime a dozen and feel free to open a manufacturing plant. Nobody is building a retail/service economy. The only reason it works is people have the money to buy it. Retail and service managers make pretty good money and low the low-level staff make no less than a painter or entry construction job. If you want more of those jobs, we are going on the right track by printing money and trying to inflate another housing bubble. Bottom line is you start at the bottom and work your way up. You can make 6 figures as a successful restaurant manager or big box store manager while making over $50k managing a mall store or fast food restaurant if that is the route you want to take, but flipping burgers is low skill and doesn't command $15 per hour. If you want to make that, work your way up like your manager did while realizing you have no business fathering 8 kids.

But that's a different point than what I'm saying.

There are ways up in retail, just like anywhere else. But there aren't as many of them as in value-added industries. There are top jobs, maybe more of them in fact, and there are bottom jobs, but not so many in the middle.

Yes there is some construction and some manufacturing. But not enough to sustain a middle class.

And I agree that nobody is "building a retail/service economy." That's not something that you build, or would want to build. Retail and services are always there wherever there are people. They're what you're left with when everything else bails. And too much of the other stuff has bailed.

Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Back in the 80’s a multi-franchise owner of Burger King’s tested a customer-enter order system
in a couple of their drive-thrus. It was a bust because significant customer entry errors made it impractical.

If modern restaurants expect patrons to place their own orders, then they will have to contend
with increases in “I’m sure I selected French Dressing, not Ranch Dressing” problems.

People have managed to figure out how to order pretty much anything they want using sites on the internet so all but the most non-tech will be able to order food for themselves at a restaurant.

I'd rather order myself that way if it is wrong it's my fault. I also don't have to wait for someone to get around to taking my order nor wait for them to bring my check.

I do wonder whether you have to tip the person who brings your food if you've ordered it yourself and they just bring it out?

I can't remember the airport because I am in too many of them, but maybe O'Hare has a bar with tablets at every table that act as entertainment and for ordering drinks.

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Nope, because there is an entire class of people who consider Chili's higher end - mainly because they cannot afford the ritzier end places.

(12-06-2013 01:51 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I can't remember the airport because I am in too many of them, but maybe O'Hare has a bar with tablets at every table that act as entertainment and for ordering drinks.

airports would be a better place for these tablets.

(12-05-2013 06:12 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Both Chili's and Applebee's are installing tablets at their tables that will allow customers to place orders and pay their check. I kind of like it, full service isn't all that great anyway.

This could be a way to cut costs if minimum wage is raised. It could also allow fast food restaurants to go self service as far as order taking.

That's fine with me. That way I don't have to tip.

yeah... comparisons to the 80's in terms of what you could do on a computer and how many people were used to using them is a bit pointless.

It's already happening with some success. Waiters and waitresses already use these systems at restaurants... including all of the custom orders and mistakes... we're merely saying that at places where the menu is pretty fixed for the vast majority of clients, I think this is a no-brainer. There's a button to push if you want to talk to a waiter... but now there is 1 waiter for 20 seats rather than 1 for 10. I'd say bars was an absolute no brainer. How much time is wasted with the old... What beers do you have? debacle. It's right there on the POS. Sure, there is still someone making the drinks and you can chat them up at the bar, but there is no waitress to take your beer re-order at the high table watching the game.

To answer someone else's question... yes, waiters are usually low (below minimum) wage plus tips, but it's still a cost that the company can do without if the people who are hourly cost them more.

It would be more appealing to me if I could place an order, pay for it and make a window booth reservation time on-line (from home or remotely).

Then again, I already do this by phone with the Pizza Joint in which I barter services.

(12-06-2013 01:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Nope, because there is an entire class of people who consider Chili's higher end - mainly because they cannot afford the ritzier end places.

That's an interesting question. NoVA is not a good cross section of America. Chili's (South of the Border, and Pizzaria Uno) aren't high end here. Not necessarily true in Middle America. Rxns there may be very different than here.

(12-06-2013 02:27 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Nope, because there is an entire class of people who consider Chili's higher end - mainly because they cannot afford the ritzier end places.

That's an interesting question. NoVA is not a good cross section of America. Chili's (South of the Border, and Pizzaria Uno) aren't high end here. Not necessarily true in Middle America. Rxns there may be very different than here.

Nah, they're pretty consistent wherever you are (I worked for a couple chains a long time ago), the Chilis Uno etc.

I think what he is saying is that for a lot of people a night at the Golden Corral is akin to Ruths Chris for others. A treat, an occasion so you still want that "going out" feel to things. Not the visit to Sheetz, feel.

(12-06-2013 02:27 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Nope, because there is an entire class of people who consider Chili's higher end - mainly because they cannot afford the ritzier end places.

That's an interesting question. NoVA is not a good cross section of America. Chili's (South of the Border, and Pizzaria Uno) aren't high end here. Not necessarily true in Middle America. Rxns there may be very different than here.

I am addressing his false notion that people who are looking for good service only go to high end restaurants -simply because there is an entire class of people who cannot afford high end eateries. Are we to assume that people who can only afford Chili's do not want to be waited on?

His comment seemed very elitist.

(12-06-2013 02:32 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 02:27 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:52 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 01:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Owl is spot on, and I'd add that those thinking you can't "replace" wait staff because some aren't tech savvy are missing the point.

If 10% of your customers are tech savvy, that's 10% of the wait staff you can lay off. A Jack-in-the box near me has a kiosk where you touch your order and someone runs it to you. There is a box you can check if you want a special order and someone will talk to you. It even takes your payment. The few minutes it takes to stand in front of the register while you stare at the board... punch in what you say... read it back to you etc are all now replaced by a computer. They could easily tether a tablet to every table rather than push an app. A simple, single service POS system like that would cost $150 or less per station. I'm betting the jack-in-the box thing costs less than 2k.

Let's face it... you don't go to fast-serve restaurants for the customer service... or even really Chili's. I'm not saying you don't value it... I'm saying if you want service, you're going to a high end "boutique" restaurant.

Nope, because there is an entire class of people who consider Chili's higher end - mainly because they cannot afford the ritzier end places.

That's an interesting question. NoVA is not a good cross section of America. Chili's (South of the Border, and Pizzaria Uno) aren't high end here. Not necessarily true in Middle America. Rxns there may be very different than here.

I am addressing his false notion that people who are looking for good service only go to high end restaurants -simply because there is an entire class of people who cannot afford high end eateries. Are we to assume that people who can only afford Chili's do not want to be waited on?

His comment seemed very elitist.

meh, perspective.

Even those who can't afford Bentley's know they are better than Chevrolet's. Many who can only afford a Chevy would rather they cut the personal service a bit than price themselves down into a Mitsubishi. People go to Wal-Mart because of it's prices. You can pay more and go get better service somewhere else, but you chose to go here.

Sure, there will still be a market for those who want to sit down and get "chain" service... and you will either pay a bit more to get it at the same restaurant or a competitor will come forth and go a different direction and you will chose service over food quality or food quality over service.

You're using a specific academic example and acting as if it is an all or nothing proposal in reality. It's not. Right now there are fast-food restaurants where you go to them for everything... there are "quick-service" restaurants (order from a window and someone brings it)... there are full-service restaurants (of varying qualities) and everything in between.

What we're talking about is a reaction to an arbitrary increase in the cost of doing business. Let's assume that right now, 100% of people, whether they want it or not, get full service at Chili's. Will they pay more to keep that service at Chili's? Some certainly will, but others won't. We're not talking about replacing 100% of waiters at Chili's... just enough to cover the increased cost of paying more for dishwashers and busboys.

The left is always so quick to argue that a big hike in the minimum wage will only add a small amount to the cost of each check, and ignore that increasing the cost of McDOnald's burger makes Chili's less of a financial stretch... and Chili's to Carraba's and Carraba's to Morton's. McDonald's doesn't want to lose business and it doesn't want to make less money... so they will look for ways to have SOME portion of their clients eschew labor for technology... service for cost... time for service.

I'd ask you if you've ever decided to go INTO a McDonald's or similar rather than wait in what appeared to be a longer line at the drive through? If so, then you've exhibited the exact behavior I'm talking about.

Hambone makes a point… well as long as we have some sort of reasonable choices.

I never order Fajitas at restaurants... I find it a bit insulting that I pay full price for a
meal that I’m required to assemble myself. I can’t imagine the wait staff bringing
out a plate of raw vegetables with the expectation that I make my own salad.

(12-06-2013 11:06 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  Aren't waitresses and the like exempt from minimum wage laws?

They have a different minimum wage, I think it's like 50 or 60% of the National minimum wage.