(11-13-2013 10:58 AM)Tallgrass Wrote:  AAC/WEST with Houston, Tulsa, Memphis, and Cincinnati reminds me of an old configuration, the Mizzouri Valley.

Yup. Interesting point. And that conference was certainly a roaring success. I think Houston was only there about 9 or 10 years and Cinci was only there for part of that period. lol...It was so compelling a conference I think most everyone left to go independent. I think some other Missouri Valley alums were also part of CUSA (Louisville, St Louis I think?). Hopefully adding Tulane and SMU to the mix helps make it better--its the 3 time around together for a lot of these teams----so you have to wonder if its going to end up any better than before. BTW--it is not certain that Cinci will be in the west. Many believe they will be pushed east and Navy will take that last western division slot.

(11-13-2013 02:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 01:01 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 06:15 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 04:01 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-06-2013 08:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  No. Too many of those "valued" schools have the wandering eye, and I don't think Navy really wants to be there (it's not the same group of schools it wanted to play yearly, but simply won't back out of the agreement, ala Boise or SDSU). Beyond that, you have an issue of what the driver for this conference should be. Is it markets? Football? Basketball? This conference has the potential to morph into something completely different depending on that answer (Charlotte and ODU would be good for hoops, NIU for football, etc.).

But, because this is the remnants of a very political and nasty group of eastern schools, I suspect it will continue to "miss the point" on amassing programs that make the conference better, and choose programs that others would rather have over someone else.

Plus, those travel budgets are going to kill UConn and Temple. I don't think Temple is in a very good place right now...

Yes, the travel budget is a killer. Unfortunately the rest of the conference showed no sympathy when the decision was being made to replace Louisville and chose Tulsa. UMass would have provided a more geographically balanced conference.

How exactly would 8 scools in the east and 4 in the west be "balanced"?

"East" and "West"???

Whatever.

Forget about arbitrary regions and focus on proximity. Houston, SMU, Tulane, and Memphis gave the southwestern corner of the conference 4 schools within reasonable proximity. UMass could have joined UConn, Temple, and Navy in a northeastern corner within reasonable proximity - at least for football. That would have left USF, UCF, ECU, and Cincinnati in a south/central location in relation to the other 2 extremes.

With the choice of Tulsa, there are now 5 schools in the southwest vs only 2 in the northeast for everything except for football, which is at 3 with Navy.

Tulsa is no closer to Houston than ECU is to UConn. Your thinking NE/SW when its really about real distances. Look, its going to be a spread out conference. That said--I'm all for adding VCU and UMass Olympic sports. Its my opinion that the AAC can be a true power in basketball. May as well be the best we can be and play to our strengths.

That's not to say we can't be quite good at football with UCF, USF, Cinci, Houston, and ECU probably being the most consistent football programs. But we wont be a power conference in football. However, if we can have a couple of ranked teams every year and capture the G5 BCS slot around 50% of the time, we will likely build a nice audience for the leagues grid iron product.

There was the potential for 3 clusters of 4 members each. By taking Tulsa, they overloaded one area and left UConn and Temple out on an island. There was already a problem in the Northeast since Navy is a member for football only, which does nothing for travel of all of the other men's and women's teams.

When you compare the distance between Houston and Tulsa, you completely ignore the distance between UConn and Florida, which is what the distance involved in an eastern division involves. The West is much more compact with reasonable distances for all members. UConn and Temple need something closer to home to compensate for having to travel those distances with their Olympic programs and to give them greater proximity for the purpose of developing rivalries.

I didn't vote. Because it depends on the perspective. Lets review the 'future' for current AAC members

Memphis, Tulane, SMU, Houston, ECU, Navy, Memphis, Temple, Tulsa, and UCF are largely happy.
UConn, Cincy, and USF aren't so happy

(11-13-2013 02:11 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 01:01 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 06:15 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 04:01 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Yes, the travel budget is a killer. Unfortunately the rest of the conference showed no sympathy when the decision was being made to replace Louisville and chose Tulsa. UMass would have provided a more geographically balanced conference.

How exactly would 8 scools in the east and 4 in the west be "balanced"?

"East" and "West"???

Whatever.

Forget about arbitrary regions and focus on proximity. Houston, SMU, Tulane, and Memphis gave the southwestern corner of the conference 4 schools within reasonable proximity. UMass could have joined UConn, Temple, and Navy in a northeastern corner within reasonable proximity - at least for football. That would have left USF, UCF, ECU, and Cincinnati in a south/central location in relation to the other 2 extremes.

With the choice of Tulsa, there are now 5 schools in the southwest vs only 2 in the northeast for everything except for football, which is at 3 with Navy.

Tulsa is no closer to Houston than ECU is to UConn. Your thinking NE/SW when its really about real distances. Look, its going to be a spread out conference. That said--I'm all for adding VCU and UMass Olympic sports. Its my opinion that the AAC can be a true power in basketball. May as well be the best we can be and play to our strengths.

That's not to say we can't be quite good at football with UCF, USF, Cinci, Houston, and ECU probably being the most consistent football programs. But we wont be a power conference in football. However, if we can have a couple of ranked teams every year and capture the G5 BCS slot around 50% of the time, we will likely build a nice audience for the leagues grid iron product.

There was the potential for 3 clusters of 4 members each. By taking Tulsa, they overloaded one area and left UConn and Temple out on an island. There was already a problem in the Northeast since Navy is a member for football only, which does nothing for travel of all of the other men's and women's teams.

When you compare the distance between Houston and Tulsa, you completely ignore the distance between UConn and Florida, which is what the distance involved in an eastern division involves. The West is much more compact with reasonable distances for all members. UConn and Temple need something closer to home to compensate for having to travel those distances with their Olympic programs and to give them greater proximity for the purpose of developing rivalries.

That's why I said I'd be all for adding UMass as an Olympic sports member--VCU as well. I think part of the problem was that there really isn't a very compelling football addition left in the area. For football, the northeastern region has been pretty picked over. Eventually, I believe Army will be the final northeastern football member. That would make it easy to add UMass and VCU as Olympic members to balance things out.

(11-13-2013 02:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:11 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 01:01 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 06:15 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  How exactly would 8 scools in the east and 4 in the west be "balanced"?

"East" and "West"???

Whatever.

Forget about arbitrary regions and focus on proximity. Houston, SMU, Tulane, and Memphis gave the southwestern corner of the conference 4 schools within reasonable proximity. UMass could have joined UConn, Temple, and Navy in a northeastern corner within reasonable proximity - at least for football. That would have left USF, UCF, ECU, and Cincinnati in a south/central location in relation to the other 2 extremes.

With the choice of Tulsa, there are now 5 schools in the southwest vs only 2 in the northeast for everything except for football, which is at 3 with Navy.

Tulsa is no closer to Houston than ECU is to UConn. Your thinking NE/SW when its really about real distances. Look, its going to be a spread out conference. That said--I'm all for adding VCU and UMass Olympic sports. Its my opinion that the AAC can be a true power in basketball. May as well be the best we can be and play to our strengths.

That's not to say we can't be quite good at football with UCF, USF, Cinci, Houston, and ECU probably being the most consistent football programs. But we wont be a power conference in football. However, if we can have a couple of ranked teams every year and capture the G5 BCS slot around 50% of the time, we will likely build a nice audience for the leagues grid iron product.

There was the potential for 3 clusters of 4 members each. By taking Tulsa, they overloaded one area and left UConn and Temple out on an island. There was already a problem in the Northeast since Navy is a member for football only, which does nothing for travel of all of the other men's and women's teams.

When you compare the distance between Houston and Tulsa, you completely ignore the distance between UConn and Florida, which is what the distance involved in an eastern division involves. The West is much more compact with reasonable distances for all members. UConn and Temple need something closer to home to compensate for having to travel those distances with their Olympic programs and to give them greater proximity for the purpose of developing rivalries.

That's why I said I'd be all for adding UMass as an Olympic sports member--VCU as well. I think part of the problem was that there really isn't a very compelling football addition left in the area. For football, the northeastern region has been pretty picked over. Eventually, I believe Army will be the final northeastern football member. That would make it easy to add UMass and VCU as Olympic members to balance things out.

UMass won’t work as an Olympic sport member in the American unless they decide to either drop back to FCS or go independent in football.

It works now because their home conference the A10 doesn’t sponsor FBS football so UMass is free to put football in any FBS conference that will take them. If UMass comes to the American it will be for all sports including football.

Army and Navy are prime examples; they can come in as football only because their home conference the Patriot League is FCS for football.

VCU works fine because football is FCS, UMass is not so clean.

(11-13-2013 02:57 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:11 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 01:01 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  "East" and "West"???

Whatever.

Forget about arbitrary regions and focus on proximity. Houston, SMU, Tulane, and Memphis gave the southwestern corner of the conference 4 schools within reasonable proximity. UMass could have joined UConn, Temple, and Navy in a northeastern corner within reasonable proximity - at least for football. That would have left USF, UCF, ECU, and Cincinnati in a south/central location in relation to the other 2 extremes.

With the choice of Tulsa, there are now 5 schools in the southwest vs only 2 in the northeast for everything except for football, which is at 3 with Navy.

Tulsa is no closer to Houston than ECU is to UConn. Your thinking NE/SW when its really about real distances. Look, its going to be a spread out conference. That said--I'm all for adding VCU and UMass Olympic sports. Its my opinion that the AAC can be a true power in basketball. May as well be the best we can be and play to our strengths.

That's not to say we can't be quite good at football with UCF, USF, Cinci, Houston, and ECU probably being the most consistent football programs. But we wont be a power conference in football. However, if we can have a couple of ranked teams every year and capture the G5 BCS slot around 50% of the time, we will likely build a nice audience for the leagues grid iron product.

There was the potential for 3 clusters of 4 members each. By taking Tulsa, they overloaded one area and left UConn and Temple out on an island. There was already a problem in the Northeast since Navy is a member for football only, which does nothing for travel of all of the other men's and women's teams.

When you compare the distance between Houston and Tulsa, you completely ignore the distance between UConn and Florida, which is what the distance involved in an eastern division involves. The West is much more compact with reasonable distances for all members. UConn and Temple need something closer to home to compensate for having to travel those distances with their Olympic programs and to give them greater proximity for the purpose of developing rivalries.

That's why I said I'd be all for adding UMass as an Olympic sports member--VCU as well. I think part of the problem was that there really isn't a very compelling football addition left in the area. For football, the northeastern region has been pretty picked over. Eventually, I believe Army will be the final northeastern football member. That would make it easy to add UMass and VCU as Olympic members to balance things out.

UMass won’t work as an Olympic sport member in the American unless they decide to either drop back to FCS or go independent in football.

It works now because their home conference the A10 doesn’t sponsor FBS football so UMass is free to put football in any FBS conference that will take them. If UMass comes to the American it will be for all sports including football.

Army and Navy are prime examples; they can come in as football only because their home conference the Patriot League is FCS for football.

VCU works fine because football is FCS, UMass is not so clean.

That's not the case. Most FBS conferences don't allow it, but the NCAA doesn't care as long as 8 members DO play Olympic sports in the same conference. If the 9th football member plays its olympics elsewhere, the NCAA doesn't care.

(11-13-2013 03:08 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:57 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:11 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-13-2013 02:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Tulsa is no closer to Houston than ECU is to UConn. Your thinking NE/SW when its really about real distances. Look, its going to be a spread out conference. That said--I'm all for adding VCU and UMass Olympic sports. Its my opinion that the AAC can be a true power in basketball. May as well be the best we can be and play to our strengths.

That's not to say we can't be quite good at football with UCF, USF, Cinci, Houston, and ECU probably being the most consistent football programs. But we wont be a power conference in football. However, if we can have a couple of ranked teams every year and capture the G5 BCS slot around 50% of the time, we will likely build a nice audience for the leagues grid iron product.

There was the potential for 3 clusters of 4 members each. By taking Tulsa, they overloaded one area and left UConn and Temple out on an island. There was already a problem in the Northeast since Navy is a member for football only, which does nothing for travel of all of the other men's and women's teams.

When you compare the distance between Houston and Tulsa, you completely ignore the distance between UConn and Florida, which is what the distance involved in an eastern division involves. The West is much more compact with reasonable distances for all members. UConn and Temple need something closer to home to compensate for having to travel those distances with their Olympic programs and to give them greater proximity for the purpose of developing rivalries.

That's why I said I'd be all for adding UMass as an Olympic sports member--VCU as well. I think part of the problem was that there really isn't a very compelling football addition left in the area. For football, the northeastern region has been pretty picked over. Eventually, I believe Army will be the final northeastern football member. That would make it easy to add UMass and VCU as Olympic members to balance things out.

UMass won’t work as an Olympic sport member in the American unless they decide to either drop back to FCS or go independent in football.

It works now because their home conference the A10 doesn’t sponsor FBS football so UMass is free to put football in any FBS conference that will take them. If UMass comes to the American it will be for all sports including football.

Army and Navy are prime examples; they can come in as football only because their home conference the Patriot League is FCS for football.

VCU works fine because football is FCS, UMass is not so clean.

That's not the case. Most FBS conferences don't allow it, but the NCAA doesn't care as long as 8 members DO play Olympic sports in the same conference. If the 9th football member plays its olympics elsewhere, the NCAA doesn't care.

Fair enough, that could very well be the case, i'm not an NCAA expert, it's just something i was told a few years back when Temple was in the A10 / MAC combo and how it was possible for them to move to (the then) Big East for football only. I would welcome a Navy football / VCU Olympic and Army football / UMass Olympic combo, i think its the only combinations that make any sense.

I really don't want to be in a conference with the service academies, no matter who tries to convince me that they're good additions. They have low ceilings and I just want to be in a conference with traditional schools. I'd be all for adding UMass as an all sports member though. UConn and Umass in the same conference, I think would be beneficial to both institutions as things currently stand. If UMass could raise their profile, get relevant in hoops again and establish a real rivalry with UConn, I think that would be a good thing for the states of CT and Mass.

If this year is any indication of our future, we are in serious trouble.... Fresno St and NIU are ranked ahead of us. If it wasn’t for our AQ, our champ would be playing in some bucket bowl. I now realize that NIU is a legitimate threat to the American along with the MWC. Since we unsuccessfully tried to eliminate the MWC threat, maybe we should consider adding NIU. We might as well add Ball St, Buffalo, and UMASS (who would probably take less money than the other American schools). This eliminates the MAC threat to our bright future and makes it an irrelevant 2 state conference. Therefore, the only real threat left to our bright future would be the MWC and ourselves: It will be very difficult for an American school to go undefeated in the conference (UCF is our best fb school this year and it's been fortunate thus far)….

(11-05-2013 10:37 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if they can build a relationship between these schools and keep them together, then yes they have a bright future, if the b12 implodes and needs to add schools, they are in trouble

^ this ^

(11-15-2013 09:38 AM)Underdog Wrote:  If this year is any indication of our future, we are in serious trouble.... Fresno St and NIU are ranked ahead of us. If it wasn’t for our AQ, our champ would be playing in some bucket bowl. I now realize that NIU is a legitimate threat to the American along with the MWC. Since we unsuccessfully tried to eliminate the MWC threat, maybe we should consider adding NIU. We might as well add Ball St, Buffalo, and UMASS (who would probably take less money than the other American schools). This eliminates the MAC threat to our bright future and makes it an irrelevant 2 state conference. Therefore, the only real threat left to our bright future would be the MWC and ourselves: It will be very difficult for an American school to go undefeated in the conference (UCF is our best fb school this year and it's been fortunate thus far)….

You could take NIU and still not eliminate the MAC threat. The same threat exists in CUSA and the Sunbelt. A generally weak conference only needs a single team to commit to building a good program. In these conferences, its much easier to go undefeated. Every AAC school is pumping money into their programs. Each AAC school has a strong commitment to football. This will manifest itself in a much stronger overall football league---we see that this year. Thus, its tougher to go undefeated against schools like these. The AAC's only hope is that the selection committee recognizes the differences in the strength of the individual G-5 schedules. If they just consider all G5 conferences as "all the same", then the AAC is probably in trouble as far winning the G-5 BCS slot. In that scenario, the AAC could end up winning the BCS slot less than any other G-5 conference. I think we will get credit for a tougher overall league---but at this point, who knows?

The MWC has the best of rest in the West, so the AAC should position to be the best of the Midwest and East. League depth is the key to swinging the advantage in one leagues favor any one season. If the AAC were to pluck a program or two from the MAC, that would be a big blow to the MAC as the league already lacks depth and has a large bottom and as you said be primarily a Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams. It would force a new program to make the commitment to fill the void and its anyones guess if that would actually happen.

(11-15-2013 10:16 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 09:38 AM)Underdog Wrote:  If this year is any indication of our future, we are in serious trouble.... Fresno St and NIU are ranked ahead of us. If it wasn’t for our AQ, our champ would be playing in some bucket bowl. I now realize that NIU is a legitimate threat to the American along with the MWC. Since we unsuccessfully tried to eliminate the MWC threat, maybe we should consider adding NIU. We might as well add Ball St, Buffalo, and UMASS (who would probably take less money than the other American schools). This eliminates the MAC threat to our bright future and makes it an irrelevant 2 state conference. Therefore, the only real threat left to our bright future would be the MWC and ourselves: It will be very difficult for an American school to go undefeated in the conference (UCF is our best fb school this year and it's been fortunate thus far)….

1)You could take NIU and still not eliminate the MAC threat. 2) The same threat exists in CUSA and the Sunbelt. 3)A generally weak conference only needs a single team to commit to building a good program. 4)In these conferences, its much easier to go undefeated.... 5)The AAC's only hope is that the selection committee recognizes the differences in the strength of the individual G-5 schedules. 6) If they just consider all G5 conferences as "all the same", then the AAC is probably in trouble as far winning the G-5 BCS slot.

1) NIU has become a mini marquee school in the MAC. Remove it, what does the MAC really have left? Nevertheless, to ensure the threat is eliminated, you add Ball St, Buffalo, and UMASS to make the MAC an irrelevant 2 state conference. Moreover, we need more diversity in the conference in order to remove the CUSA-merican label….

2) I disagree…. We are seen as the best of what CUSA had to offer. However, the polls have shown that the MAC and MWC are viewed either as being equal or better than us.

3) I'll admit that there are some schools in CUSA and the SBC that have potential. When they peak, we need to snatch them away to the American.

4) The MAC and MWC have to be included. Consequently, we are at a disadvantage every year once the AQ is gone.

5) If our undefeated champ has to be evaluated against an undefeated NIU or Boise St, they would get selected because of their past success. However, if UCF knocks off a highly ranked P5 opponent in a BCS bowl, this would greatly improve the perception of our conference.

6) See response 5.

Your comments are always appreciated….

(11-15-2013 12:15 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  The MWC has the best of rest in the West, so the AAC should position to be the best of the Midwest and East. League depth is the key to swinging the advantage in one leagues favor any one season. If the AAC were to pluck a program or two from the MAC, that would be a big blow to the MAC as the league already lacks depth and has a large bottom and as you said be primarily a Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams. It would force a new program to make the commitment to fill the void and its anyones guess if that would actually happen.

I totally agree; plus you bring up a very good point: Making the MAC a "Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams" would make the conference even more irrelevant and unable to compete with us…..

(11-15-2013 12:53 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 12:15 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  The MWC has the best of rest in the West, so the AAC should position to be the best of the Midwest and East. League depth is the key to swinging the advantage in one leagues favor any one season. If the AAC were to pluck a program or two from the MAC, that would be a big blow to the MAC as the league already lacks depth and has a large bottom and as you said be primarily a Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams. It would force a new program to make the commitment to fill the void and its anyones guess if that would actually happen.

I totally agree; plus you bring up a very good point: Making the MAC a "Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams" would make the conference even more irrelevant and unable to compete with us…..

Interestingly NIU has more wins against Big Ten teams this season (2 - 0) than Northwestern and Illinois combined (combined 0 - 10 in BIG play). Illinois in general has historically not had a traditional football powerhouse in FBS so while NIU will never be a BIG team, there is a plenty of potential to remain very relevant in the state for football while others in the MAC sit in the backyard of much stronger BIG programs.

(11-15-2013 01:19 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 12:53 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 12:15 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  The MWC has the best of rest in the West, so the AAC should position to be the best of the Midwest and East. League depth is the key to swinging the advantage in one leagues favor any one season. If the AAC were to pluck a program or two from the MAC, that would be a big blow to the MAC as the league already lacks depth and has a large bottom and as you said be primarily a Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams. It would force a new program to make the commitment to fill the void and its anyones guess if that would actually happen.

I totally agree; plus you bring up a very good point: Making the MAC a "Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams" would make the conference even more irrelevant and unable to compete with us…..

Interestingly NIU has more wins against Big Ten teams this season (2 - 0) than Northwestern and Illinois combined (combined 0 - 10 in BIG play). Illinois in general has historically not had a traditional football powerhouse in FBS so while NIU will never be a BIG team, there is a plenty of potential to remain very relevant in the state for football while others in the MAC sit in the backyard of much stronger BIG programs.

Could that point also hold true for NIU basketball as well? NIU have been TERRIBLE lately in hoops while Illinois tends to be respectable. Maybe that's the opposite situation taking effect...

(11-15-2013 02:22 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 01:19 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 12:53 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(11-15-2013 12:15 PM)HuskieTap22 Wrote:  The MWC has the best of rest in the West, so the AAC should position to be the best of the Midwest and East. League depth is the key to swinging the advantage in one leagues favor any one season. If the AAC were to pluck a program or two from the MAC, that would be a big blow to the MAC as the league already lacks depth and has a large bottom and as you said be primarily a Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams. It would force a new program to make the commitment to fill the void and its anyones guess if that would actually happen.

I totally agree; plus you bring up a very good point: Making the MAC a "Michigan Ohio league in the backyard of three (strong) Big Ten teams" would make the conference even more irrelevant and unable to compete with us…..

Interestingly NIU has more wins against Big Ten teams this season (2 - 0) than Northwestern and Illinois combined (combined 0 - 10 in BIG play). Illinois in general has historically not had a traditional football powerhouse in FBS so while NIU will never be a BIG team, there is a plenty of potential to remain very relevant in the state for football while others in the MAC sit in the backyard of much stronger BIG programs.

Could that point also hold true for NIU basketball as well? NIU have been TERRIBLE lately in hoops while Illinois tends to be respectable. Maybe that's the opposite situation taking effect...

Look at UCONN, Memphis, and Temple: Good bball and not as good in fball (and we don't expect them to be). We also have schools that are bad in fball and bball. Neverthless, you missed the primary point posted for adding NIU (and a few other MAC schools). Regarding Tulane, it's improving in fball, and I'll leave it at that....