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Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #41
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
I've said all along there would not be a breakaway. The NCAA is a frustrating mess but the schools created it. There is little reason to believe the same players starting over would not end up re-creating what they already have.

What I find completely amusing is the idea the FCS and non-football schools were clinging when stipend came along. I will agree the stipend proposal given initial approval was deeply flawed (particularly dealing with equivalency sports).

But there were schools opposing it on "I can't afford it" grounds.

Just shows how far the mindset of the membership has changed in the past forty years.

Until 1973, there was one rule book. For many years you were either University Division or College Division (further sub-divided into I and II later on). A school might be University Division in basketball but College Division in football.

Your election and your schedule were pretty much the difference. Every NCAA member voted on every rule.

Until the federated structure of 1973 there was no scholarship limit in football. If you were in a conference, the conference could set a limit or choose to have no limit.

Quite a few College Division conferences had scholarship limits that were greater than University Division schools (that's not even dealing with no scholarship Ivy).

Until 1973 we accepted as normal that schools playing in the same division would give differing amounts of aid. Even with the adoption of the 105 limit for Division I and lower limit for the new Division II there was still a big difference in limits.

Limits ranged between 105 to 70 and all the way down to 0.

It wasn't until the I-A scholarship limit fell to 85 that we had uniformity in scholarships limits across I-A (the MAC and Big West lifted their limits and fell in line).

The Division I universe operated pretty efficiently with different leagues imposing different aid limits.

The stipend harkened back to that era as the legislation set a cap on it but specifically provided you had to approve it within your conference to offer it if you were a conference member.

You don't have to award 100% of allowed aid to be competitive. The Ivy has won a lot contests (albeit mostly sports gaining less attention) awarding no aid and the Patriot while tying aid to financial need produced some highly competitive FCS programs.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 09:27 AM by arkstfan.)
11-01-2013 09:25 AM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #42
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:12 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:06 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 03:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 03:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  To a certain extent, yes. But Delany has been on the losing side of other NCAA issues and could be on this one as well.

I wouldn't say that Delany has been on the losing side of much. The public sometimes might see it that way since he's a commissioner that's very willing to speak to the media about various issues (much more so than Mike Slive), but he's well-known in the industry to take a hardline stance in public when the reality privately is that he wants something much less than that. So, he uses the public forum to push the consensus toward where he wants it to be.

Delany is essentially like one of those whales that bet on sports in Vegas. If a whale wants to nudge the point spread in a certain direction, he'll actually put enough money in the opposite direction to get the bookmakers to change the line, and then the whale will bet much more money on the other side once he gets the point spread that he wants. (For example, if the whale really wants a Georgia -2.5 line (over Florida) instead of the current Georgia -3 line, he'll actually bet a ton on Florida early in the week to get the line changed in Florida's favor, and then bet even more on the Georgia line that he really wants once that line change occurs.) That's what Delany has been doing his whole career and this NCAA governance debate is yet another example of it. When Andy Staples says that wealthy programs were threatening to have their own basketball tournament, you can be assured that Delany was one of those people delivering that threat.

I have been told by more than one person that Delany's M.O. is to ask for more than he wants and more than you would consider so that you feel like you got a good deal when you compromise and agree to what he really wanted.

Isn't that just negotiating?

It is outside the university world. In university world that is being a fire-brand extremist because you are supposed to come to the table stating what you really want. 03-lmfao
11-01-2013 09:27 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:12 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:06 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 03:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 03:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  To a certain extent, yes. But Delany has been on the losing side of other NCAA issues and could be on this one as well.

I wouldn't say that Delany has been on the losing side of much. The public sometimes might see it that way since he's a commissioner that's very willing to speak to the media about various issues (much more so than Mike Slive), but he's well-known in the industry to take a hardline stance in public when the reality privately is that he wants something much less than that. So, he uses the public forum to push the consensus toward where he wants it to be.

Delany is essentially like one of those whales that bet on sports in Vegas. If a whale wants to nudge the point spread in a certain direction, he'll actually put enough money in the opposite direction to get the bookmakers to change the line, and then the whale will bet much more money on the other side once he gets the point spread that he wants. (For example, if the whale really wants a Georgia -2.5 line (over Florida) instead of the current Georgia -3 line, he'll actually bet a ton on Florida early in the week to get the line changed in Florida's favor, and then bet even more on the Georgia line that he really wants once that line change occurs.) That's what Delany has been doing his whole career and this NCAA governance debate is yet another example of it. When Andy Staples says that wealthy programs were threatening to have their own basketball tournament, you can be assured that Delany was one of those people delivering that threat.

I have been told by more than one person that Delany's M.O. is to ask for more than he wants and more than you would consider so that you feel like you got a good deal when you compromise and agree to what he really wanted.

Isn't that just negotiating?

It is outside the university world. In university world that is being a fire-brand extremist because you are supposed to come to the table stating what you really want. 03-lmfao

I like it.
11-01-2013 09:28 AM
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Post: #44
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(10-31-2013 10:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:16 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The NCAA tournament, without the lower schools, at best, would make half the money it makes now. The unknown and the mismatches are actually a draw for the NCAA tournament, which is a polar opposite of college bowls, which is probably a fascinating case study in it's own right.

The NCAA Tournament has the best free advertising any sporting event has ever had, and the splits would destroy it.

I think you are totally wrong about this. Noone wants to see 110-51 games.

You could cut the NCAA tourney to 48 teams and make every bit as much.

There really aren't but 2-3 110-51 type games. hell remember 2 years ago when 2 of the 2 seeds got beat on the same day. I'm sorry, but a large part of the tourney are the smaller schools getting their shot against Goliath.

That's why those games are always at 10 am. There has been what, 1 16 seed win, or is it none? Maybe 4 or 5 15 seeds. Very few 14 seeds. I don't even have any interest watching UK in those 1 vs. 16 or 2 vs 15 games.

The tourney would be better if the bottom 10 conferences were in Division II.
11-01-2013 09:52 AM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(10-31-2013 07:41 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Exactly JR. I put in bold the very important parts of the quotes. That very first but is very important. I have watched closely how Delany speaks. He well set you up with kindness and tell you what you want to hear, then he will follow it up with what you must do in order to achieve that which you just heard him tell you.

Yes, we wont need a completely different Division if the Major Conferences gain control of governance and rule making. Yes, they don't want to destroy the basketball tournament but let us just remember that it could happen if The Majors don't get what they want.

As a student of language, this is actually a very threatening statement Delany just made. The fact that a lot of folks don't pick up on this aspect of Delany's statements, is testament to his skill.


How to best paraphrase? "We can all be friends as long as you let us do what we want to do." How that can be determined to be the death of talk of a new division or even a split from the NCAA is beyond me.

I see it as you see it JR

Delany is holding the winning hand right now. He knows it - and I think he and the other P5 commissioners are having a laugh right now.

If I'm a G5/Big East/A10 type school, I would do everything in my power to make sure that the P5 gets EXACTLY what they want. Siding with the smaller D1 conferences in such an argument is essentially program suicide.

Delany gets away with his statements because he knows that he can summon any part of the G5/Big East/A10 to his aid at a moment's notice.

Need hoops? Grab the Big East and A10.

Lawsuits? Allow qualified schools that sue to join as an independent.

Need early wins? Set up scheduling agreements.

Short bowl teams? Crossover bowl agreements.

Delany can not only break off, but he can also raid the NCAA for any basketball power or FBS mid-major that he wants. Period.
11-01-2013 09:53 AM
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Post: #46
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
I've never seen a split. But the totally opposite viewpoints of some makes me wonder if they really can come to an agreement. There is clearly a lot of frustration among the P5. The stipend is a symptom, not the real issue. Some seem to act as if it is the problem, not an issue.

The NCAA ends if the P5 break away. Some of the commentators from the non-P5 schools seem oblivious to that.
11-01-2013 09:58 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(10-31-2013 10:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:16 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The NCAA tournament, without the lower schools, at best, would make half the money it makes now. The unknown and the mismatches are actually a draw for the NCAA tournament, which is a polar opposite of college bowls, which is probably a fascinating case study in it's own right.

The NCAA Tournament has the best free advertising any sporting event has ever had, and the splits would destroy it.

I think you are totally wrong about this. Noone wants to see 110-51 games.

You could cut the NCAA tourney to 48 teams and make every bit as much.

There really aren't but 2-3 110-51 type games. hell remember 2 years ago when 2 of the 2 seeds got beat on the same day. I'm sorry, but a large part of the tourney are the smaller schools getting their shot against Goliath.

Yup. And the ratings reflect this. Let's put it this way, we can debate how valuable the tournament would be without them, but in the world of conservative University presidents, I think we can safely say it is not a gamble they want to have to find out about.

Likewise, the presidents of the smaller schools certainly don't want to find out what would happen if they had to have their own tournament. It's sort of a lose/lose, but at least the P5 could possibly break even, which gives them the ultimate leverage as a threat.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 11:17 AM by adcorbett.)
11-01-2013 10:21 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 10:50 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:16 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The NCAA tournament, without the lower schools, at best, would make half the money it makes now. The unknown and the mismatches are actually a draw for the NCAA tournament, which is a polar opposite of college bowls, which is probably a fascinating case study in it's own right.

The NCAA Tournament has the best free advertising any sporting event has ever had, and the splits would destroy it.

I think you are totally wrong about this. Noone wants to see 110-51 games.

You could cut the NCAA tourney to 48 teams and make every bit as much.

There really aren't but 2-3 110-51 type games. hell remember 2 years ago when 2 of the 2 seeds got beat on the same day. I'm sorry, but a large part of the tourney are the smaller schools getting their shot against Goliath.

That's why those games are always at 10 am. There has been what, 1 16 seed win, or is it none? Maybe 4 or 5 15 seeds. Very few 14 seeds. I don't even have any interest watching UK in those 1 vs. 16 or 2 vs 15 games.

The tourney would be better if the bottom 10 conferences were in Division II.
Those games aren't always at 10am. Never have and never will. I mean- what made the tournament last year was what FGCU- aka dunk city did. I think that game started at like 630 or 7pm if memory serves me right.
11-01-2013 10:34 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  That's why those games are always at 10 am. There has been what, 1 16 seed win, or is it none? Maybe 4 or 5 15 seeds. Very few 14 seeds. I don't even have any interest watching UK in those 1 vs. 16 or 2 vs 15 games.

You really need to look at the ratings. The first day draws three times the viewers as the national championship game, and more than the total Final Four weekend by a comfortable margin. To put in perspective, the first weekend of the NCAA tournament draws nearly as many viewers as the ENTIRE college bowl season combined (minus the championship game). Half of the viewers of the tournament are from the first weekend (146 million) versus the remainder of the tournament. Those are mostly all P5/G5 or G5/G5 matchups. Cut the tournament in half, and you lose half the viewers. And that does not account for the matchup/gambling loss of attention. There is nothing to indicate that a separate tournament would do better, overall, or on a per team basis, especially since the P5 conferences actually get half of the distributed money.
11-01-2013 10:49 AM
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Post: #50
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
I think the amt of money the p5 conferences get(especially if you include the BE in there)- is probably more like 2/3, if not more.
11-01-2013 10:54 AM
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Post: #51
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  I've never seen a split. But the totally opposite viewpoints of some makes me wonder if they really can come to an agreement. There is clearly a lot of frustration among the P5. The stipend is a symptom, not the real issue. Some seem to act as if it is the problem, not an issue.

The NCAA ends if the P5 break away. Some of the commentators from the non-P5 schools seem oblivious to that.

I don't think there will be any break away from the NCAA. However, I do see a D4 split along the 10 FBS conferences and willing FCS/BB only conferences. As for the tournament, it'll remain intact for now as a combination of D1 and D4 divisions as the NCAA Hockey tournament has D2 and D3 schools with the D1 teams.
11-01-2013 10:57 AM
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Post: #52
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 10:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the amt of money the p5 conferences get(especially if you include the BE in there)- is probably more like 2/3, if not more.

In total revenue, it looks like this:

Code:
Confrn    Acad Enhance    Basketball Fd    Conf Grant    GrntNAid    Spec Asst    Sports Spnsr    StudAthOppFund    Supplemental    Total
IssuDt    6/1/2011    4/15/2011    6/17/2011    8/12/2011    8/26/2011    7/29/2011    8/26/2011    1/24/2011    Total
ATL 10    $933,086    $5,751,936    $261,774    $2,906,675    $514,018    $2,667,128    $1,403,218    $941,733    $15,379,568
ACConf    $799,788    $18,214,465    $261,774    $9,511,869    $596,405    $3,599,015    $3,279,715    $2,461,731    $38,724,762
BIGXII    $799,788    $18,933,457    $261,774    $8,700,244    $552,011    $2,217,251    $2,285,734    $2,199,121    $35,949,380
BGEAST    $1,066,384    $24,925,057    $261,774    $7,951,378    $729,804    $3,534,746    $2,876,274    $2,728,745    $44,074,162
BIGTEN    $733,139    $18,454,129    $261,774    $11,713,716    $704,679    $4,081,029    $4,300,287    $2,442,615    $42,691,368
CUSAco    $799,788    $6,950,256    $261,774    $6,989,555    $595,057    $1,446,030    $2,103,357    $1,299,676    $20,445,493
MtnWst     $599,841    $5,032,944    $261,774    $5,993,449    $375,692    $2,056,580    $1,512,407    $870,111    $16,702,798
PAC-10    $666,490    $16,057,489    $261,774    $8,190,013    $648,652    $2,699,263    $3,037,052    $2,026,013    $33,586,746
SEConf    $799,788    $15,578,161    $261,774    $8,866,912    $698,200    $2,538,594    $2,848,462    $2,079,162    $33,671,053
AmEast    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,813,281    $337,973    $1,831,642    $1,166,305    $479,960    $9,168,424
ATC SUN    $599,841    $1,437,984    $261,774    $428,954    $234,493    $1,092,557    $308,337    $189,665    $4,553,605
BIGSKY    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,168,841    $370,739    $835,485    $751,624    $357,454    $7,023,406
BIGSTH    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,526,972    $399,205    $1,156,825    $752,218    $318,260    $6,692,743
BIGWST    $599,841    $1,917,312    $261,774    $1,711,353    $391,494    $1,735,240    $868,363    $429,720    $7,915,097
COLATH    $799,788    $3,355,296    $261,774    $4,007,822    $442,196    $2,152,982    $1,544,762    $679,056    $13,243,676
HORIZN    $666,490    $4,553,616    $261,774    $1,085,739    $296,645    $1,381,763    $622,780    $451,811    $9,320,618
INDPNT    $533,192    $0    $0    $180,118    $168,382    $321,340    $126,881    $17,024    $1,346,937
IVYLgu    $533,192    $1,917,312    $261,774    $0    $336,102    $4,595,173    $1,175,647    $457,795    $9,276,995
MAACnf    $666,490    $1,917,312    $261,774    $373,525    $282,828    $1,831,641    $561,250    $329,565    $6,224,385
MDAMRN    $799,788    $1,677,648    $261,774    $7,461,407    $631,220    $1,863,774    $2,327,252    $817,106    $15,839,969
MIDEST    $799,788    $1,437,984    $261,774    $1,999,967    $600,994    $1,060,422    $767,290    $351,433    $7,279,652
MSSVLY    $666,490    $5,032,944    $261,774    $2,357,411    $314,545    $931,886    $823,051    $605,313    $10,993,414
NRTHEST    $733,139    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,469,396    $428,648    $2,634,992    $1,038,556    $437,339    $8,681,492
OVConf    $666,490    $1,917,312    $261,774    $2,291,674    $450,080    $996,155    $823,193    $379,982    $7,786,660
PTRIOT    $533,192    $1,917,312    $261,774    $1,279,246    $231,645    $2,763,531    $1,024,283    $445,448    $8,456,431
SUTHRN    $799,788    $2,156,976    $261,774    $2,216,178    $418,957    $1,735,238    $993,559    $449,413    $9,031,883
STHLND    $799,788    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,335,866    $536,273    $771,216    $776,602    $362,715    $7,521,882
SWNconf    $666,490    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,487,995    $684,958    $1,285,360    $770,369    $318,933    $7,153,527
SUNBLT    $799,788    $2,396,640    $261,774    $5,236,979    $613,383    $1,317,494    $1,635,839    $663,939    $12,925,836
SUMMIT    $666,490    $1,437,984    $261,774    $1,774,211    $303,415    $1,285,362    $734,840    $317,970    $6,782,046
WSTCST    $533,192    $4,553,616    $261,774    $453,928    $262,764    $706,948    $566,195    $374,111    $7,712,528
WAConf    $599,841    $2,875,968    $261,774    $4,533,653    $393,393    $1,028,288    $1,387,422    $718,125    $11,798,464
Spplml    $897,092    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $897,092
TOTAL    $23,357,805    $180,466,998    $8,114,994    $120,018,327    $14,544,850    $60,154,950    $45,193,124    $27,001,044    $478,852,092

This is from 2011, the last year full numbers for each conference is available. Revenue distribution numbers are available for 2012, but not per conference. At least not that I can find. Now some of these numbers will move around due to expansion and the way the funds are paid out, which is how I calculate it at 50% with the P5 plus the AAC and Big East when it is all said and done.

Revenue is up about 10% for 2012 over these numbers BTW. So that is $263.3 million that will be paid out among the P5, AAC, and BE. Yes the NCAA does keep some of that money, but it is the only money they keep (I.e. they don't keep money from football, TV contracts, etc).

While that sounds like a lot, a split would in ten years start to look an awful lot like Animal Farm, if you get my drift, with regards to overhead and procedurals.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 11:02 AM by adcorbett.)
11-01-2013 10:58 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 10:58 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 10:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the amt of money the p5 conferences get(especially if you include the BE in there)- is probably more like 2/3, if not more.

In total revenue, it looks like this:

Code:
Confrn    Acad Enhance    Basketball Fd    Conf Grant    GrntNAid    Spec Asst    Sports Spnsr    StudAthOppFund    Supplemental    Total
IssuDt    6/1/2011    4/15/2011    6/17/2011    8/12/2011    8/26/2011    7/29/2011    8/26/2011    1/24/2011    Total
ATL 10    $933,086    $5,751,936    $261,774    $2,906,675    $514,018    $2,667,128    $1,403,218    $941,733    $15,379,568
ACConf    $799,788    $18,214,465    $261,774    $9,511,869    $596,405    $3,599,015    $3,279,715    $2,461,731    $38,724,762
BIGXII    $799,788    $18,933,457    $261,774    $8,700,244    $552,011    $2,217,251    $2,285,734    $2,199,121    $35,949,380
BGEAST    $1,066,384    $24,925,057    $261,774    $7,951,378    $729,804    $3,534,746    $2,876,274    $2,728,745    $44,074,162
BIGTEN    $733,139    $18,454,129    $261,774    $11,713,716    $704,679    $4,081,029    $4,300,287    $2,442,615    $42,691,368
CUSAco    $799,788    $6,950,256    $261,774    $6,989,555    $595,057    $1,446,030    $2,103,357    $1,299,676    $20,445,493
MtnWst     $599,841    $5,032,944    $261,774    $5,993,449    $375,692    $2,056,580    $1,512,407    $870,111    $16,702,798
PAC-10    $666,490    $16,057,489    $261,774    $8,190,013    $648,652    $2,699,263    $3,037,052    $2,026,013    $33,586,746
SEConf    $799,788    $15,578,161    $261,774    $8,866,912    $698,200    $2,538,594    $2,848,462    $2,079,162    $33,671,053
AmEast    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,813,281    $337,973    $1,831,642    $1,166,305    $479,960    $9,168,424
ATC SUN    $599,841    $1,437,984    $261,774    $428,954    $234,493    $1,092,557    $308,337    $189,665    $4,553,605
BIGSKY    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,168,841    $370,739    $835,485    $751,624    $357,454    $7,023,406
BIGSTH    $599,841    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,526,972    $399,205    $1,156,825    $752,218    $318,260    $6,692,743
BIGWST    $599,841    $1,917,312    $261,774    $1,711,353    $391,494    $1,735,240    $868,363    $429,720    $7,915,097
COLATH    $799,788    $3,355,296    $261,774    $4,007,822    $442,196    $2,152,982    $1,544,762    $679,056    $13,243,676
HORIZN    $666,490    $4,553,616    $261,774    $1,085,739    $296,645    $1,381,763    $622,780    $451,811    $9,320,618
INDPNT    $533,192    $0    $0    $180,118    $168,382    $321,340    $126,881    $17,024    $1,346,937
IVYLgu    $533,192    $1,917,312    $261,774    $0    $336,102    $4,595,173    $1,175,647    $457,795    $9,276,995
MAACnf    $666,490    $1,917,312    $261,774    $373,525    $282,828    $1,831,641    $561,250    $329,565    $6,224,385
MDAMRN    $799,788    $1,677,648    $261,774    $7,461,407    $631,220    $1,863,774    $2,327,252    $817,106    $15,839,969
MIDEST    $799,788    $1,437,984    $261,774    $1,999,967    $600,994    $1,060,422    $767,290    $351,433    $7,279,652
MSSVLY    $666,490    $5,032,944    $261,774    $2,357,411    $314,545    $931,886    $823,051    $605,313    $10,993,414
NRTHEST    $733,139    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,469,396    $428,648    $2,634,992    $1,038,556    $437,339    $8,681,492
OVConf    $666,490    $1,917,312    $261,774    $2,291,674    $450,080    $996,155    $823,193    $379,982    $7,786,660
PTRIOT    $533,192    $1,917,312    $261,774    $1,279,246    $231,645    $2,763,531    $1,024,283    $445,448    $8,456,431
SUTHRN    $799,788    $2,156,976    $261,774    $2,216,178    $418,957    $1,735,238    $993,559    $449,413    $9,031,883
STHLND    $799,788    $1,677,648    $261,774    $2,335,866    $536,273    $771,216    $776,602    $362,715    $7,521,882
SWNconf    $666,490    $1,677,648    $261,774    $1,487,995    $684,958    $1,285,360    $770,369    $318,933    $7,153,527
SUNBLT    $799,788    $2,396,640    $261,774    $5,236,979    $613,383    $1,317,494    $1,635,839    $663,939    $12,925,836
SUMMIT    $666,490    $1,437,984    $261,774    $1,774,211    $303,415    $1,285,362    $734,840    $317,970    $6,782,046
WSTCST    $533,192    $4,553,616    $261,774    $453,928    $262,764    $706,948    $566,195    $374,111    $7,712,528
WAConf    $599,841    $2,875,968    $261,774    $4,533,653    $393,393    $1,028,288    $1,387,422    $718,125    $11,798,464
Spplml    $897,092    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $0.00    $897,092
TOTAL    $23,357,805    $180,466,998    $8,114,994    $120,018,327    $14,544,850    $60,154,950    $45,193,124    $27,001,044    $478,852,092

This is from 2011, the last year full numbers for each conference is available. Revenue distribution numbers are available for 2012, but not per conference. At least not that I can find. Now some of these numbers will move around due to expansion and the way the funds are paid out, which is how I calculate it at 50% with the P5 plus the AAC and Big East when it is all said and done.

Revenue is up about 10% for 2012 over these numbers BTW. So that is $263.3 million that will be paid out among the P5, AAC, and BE. Yes the NCAA does keep some of that money, but it is the only money they keep (I.e. they don't keep money from football, TV contracts, etc).

While that sounds like a lot, a split would in ten years start to look an awful lot like Animal Farm, if you get my drift, with regards to overhead and procedurals.

They don't keep money in football because it could have led to a rupture in relationship back in the early 80's. They bankroll 70 million plus a year so you're danged right they keep a little. Their total reserves are now well over half a billion. It is a bloated bureaucracy that is ineffectual and at times incompetent. It is probably too large to reform which is why I favor forming a new governing structure that can operate on a lot less and give out a lot more.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 01:11 PM by JRsec.)
11-01-2013 01:10 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:28 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:12 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:06 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 03:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I wouldn't say that Delany has been on the losing side of much. The public sometimes might see it that way since he's a commissioner that's very willing to speak to the media about various issues (much more so than Mike Slive), but he's well-known in the industry to take a hardline stance in public when the reality privately is that he wants something much less than that. So, he uses the public forum to push the consensus toward where he wants it to be.

Delany is essentially like one of those whales that bet on sports in Vegas. If a whale wants to nudge the point spread in a certain direction, he'll actually put enough money in the opposite direction to get the bookmakers to change the line, and then the whale will bet much more money on the other side once he gets the point spread that he wants. (For example, if the whale really wants a Georgia -2.5 line (over Florida) instead of the current Georgia -3 line, he'll actually bet a ton on Florida early in the week to get the line changed in Florida's favor, and then bet even more on the Georgia line that he really wants once that line change occurs.) That's what Delany has been doing his whole career and this NCAA governance debate is yet another example of it. When Andy Staples says that wealthy programs were threatening to have their own basketball tournament, you can be assured that Delany was one of those people delivering that threat.

I have been told by more than one person that Delany's M.O. is to ask for more than he wants and more than you would consider so that you feel like you got a good deal when you compromise and agree to what he really wanted.

Isn't that just negotiating?

It is outside the university world. In university world that is being a fire-brand extremist because you are supposed to come to the table stating what you really want. 03-lmfao

I like it.

He is why the Big Ten has led the way. He brought a business mind and basically had his way with these people.
11-01-2013 07:41 PM
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USAFMEDIC Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(10-31-2013 03:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  What Delany is basically saying with the phrase "political redistribution" is that "We'll stay in the NCAA as long as we (the power conferences) get to vote for whatever we want and smaller schools can choose or not choose to follow them." That sounds simple enough, but are the smaller schools going to be cool with that (particularly since they constitute a majority of Division I)? This is actually an extremely impressive quote from Delany - the headline reads that he doesn't want to leave the NCAA (meaning that he sounds like he's making a concession), but the underlying intent of his quote is to make a not-so-veiled threat that the power conferences will only stay or not split into Division IV unless they have super-voting power over everything.

That's the take I got on the comments.
11-02-2013 12:19 AM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-01-2013 09:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  I've never seen a split. But the totally opposite viewpoints of some makes me wonder if they really can come to an agreement. There is clearly a lot of frustration among the P5. The stipend is a symptom, not the real issue. Some seem to act as if it is the problem, not an issue.

The NCAA ends if the P5 break away. Some of the commentators from the non-P5 schools seem oblivious to that.

There are 351 D-1 schools. If 64 break away, the other 285 (along with the D-2 and D-3 schools) aren't going to just throw in the towel and give up athletics, and they will still need a governing organization to manage national competition. Plus the NCAA is sitting on half a billion dollars in cash from previous basketball tournaments. That's plenty to tide the organization over while it scales back to cope with the new fiscal reality of a huge decrease in TV revenue. The NCAA will certainly survive, and to ensure its survival, it will also bar any member from playing any P5 school in any sport upon penalty of expulsion.

So where will that leave the P5? In a very exclusive club. So exclusive that the age of fattening up win-loss records and RPIs by feasting on less well-heeled competitors at home will be over. Half of all out-of-conference games will have to be played on the road, and except in areas where P5 conferences overlap, the road games will require air travel. This will be the case in all sports.

Think about what that will mean for, say, the Pac-12. No more out-of-conference games against the MWC, the WCC, the Big West, the Big Sky or the WAC. The closest out-of-conference away games Washington, Oregon, Cal or USC can play will be in Lubbock, Texas. Not just in football and basketball, but in all of the 22 sports the "Conference of Champions" so proudly sponsors.

A breakaway by the P5 won't happen. Delaney and his P5 counterparts are smart enough to know it would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs -- not just the NCAA basketball tournament goose, but the goose called genuine national competition, which allows NCAA champions to label themselves true national champions and drives casual fan interest in intercollegiate athletics.
11-02-2013 10:04 AM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
This is like a vote of confidence of a HC by an AD.

What do you expect him to say, "Die in a fire NCAA!" ?
11-02-2013 09:21 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Delany: "We don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV"
(11-02-2013 10:04 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 09:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  I've never seen a split. But the totally opposite viewpoints of some makes me wonder if they really can come to an agreement. There is clearly a lot of frustration among the P5. The stipend is a symptom, not the real issue. Some seem to act as if it is the problem, not an issue.

The NCAA ends if the P5 break away. Some of the commentators from the non-P5 schools seem oblivious to that.

There are 351 D-1 schools. If 64 break away, the other 285 (along with the D-2 and D-3 schools) aren't going to just throw in the towel and give up athletics, and they will still need a governing organization to manage national competition. Plus the NCAA is sitting on half a billion dollars in cash from previous basketball tournaments. That's plenty to tide the organization over while it scales back to cope with the new fiscal reality of a huge decrease in TV revenue. The NCAA will certainly survive, and to ensure its survival, it will also bar any member from playing any P5 school in any sport upon penalty of expulsion.

So where will that leave the P5? In a very exclusive club. So exclusive that the age of fattening up win-loss records and RPIs by feasting on less well-heeled competitors at home will be over. Half of all out-of-conference games will have to be played on the road, and except in areas where P5 conferences overlap, the road games will require air travel. This will be the case in all sports.

Think about what that will mean for, say, the Pac-12. No more out-of-conference games against the MWC, the WCC, the Big West, the Big Sky or the WAC. The closest out-of-conference away games Washington, Oregon, Cal or USC can play will be in Lubbock, Texas. Not just in football and basketball, but in all of the 22 sports the "Conference of Champions" so proudly sponsors.

A breakaway by the P5 won't happen. Delaney and his P5 counterparts are smart enough to know it would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs -- not just the NCAA basketball tournament goose, but the goose called genuine national competition, which allows NCAA champions to label themselves true national champions and drives casual fan interest in intercollegiate athletics.

85% of the NCAA's revenue comes from the basketball tournament. The NCAA as it now exists goes away. The vast bureaucracy and funding of all the national tournaments in every division goes away.

I think the bold is nonsense. The P5 is nation-wide and its virtually all the top universities in athletics.

Now I don't think they will split unless they get ignored, but its not because they want competition from the rest. They don't want to get their colleagues mad and damage intercollegiate competition for the other 1000 universities. They may work at one someday. And they do have some morals. And they are conservative and believe in incremental change.
11-02-2013 10:14 PM
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