(10-25-2013 01:07 PM)emu79 Wrote:  I'd have to go with U of M and Michigan State as the worse.

What did Spartan fans ever do to you?

(10-25-2013 08:14 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  ND was ignored by the B10 for one main reason: their graduate programs are not up to B10 levels. Academics do play a role for major conferences, even if the 4-letter network doesn't understand that.

But the time that Notre Dame was ignored by the Big Ten was a number of decades back. The door was open for Notre Dame from the time that Penn State entered until the Big Ten got tired of waiting and UNL became available.

But now Notre Dame has settled on independence as a goal in its own right.

You wouldn't chase ND for their academics, but their professional schools at present are good enough to recruit allies in Big Ten campuses ~ their Law School is top 30, their Business School is top 30, their Engineering school is top 50. TSUN & Wisconsin would sniff a bit, but it would seem likely to go through.

(10-25-2013 01:19 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  

(10-25-2013 01:14 PM)Huron 61 Wrote:  

(10-25-2013 10:38 AM)FlashFan Wrote:  

(10-25-2013 08:53 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  nD doesn't want in the b10 do they?
Too many rivalries and big names they would have to eliminate from their schedule. Plus NBC is a huge deal compared to b10 network.
Nd is one of the best schools and toughest to get into in the nation... They meet any standards academically the b10 offers. They are religious which may play a factor, but curriculum shouldn't effect football and basketball conferences.

Here's the ND side of the story, at least as published in their program. Don't know how much of it is true, but here goes.

Back in the 20's, the then named Notre Dame Catholics wanted to get into the forerunner of the Big Ten (think it was the Midwestern Conference). The big public schools, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, didn't want them. ND felt at the time (think still does) that their composition of mostly Catholic and mostly immigrant kids played a part in that decision. Not only did the now Big 10 conference not want to admit Notre Dame, they blackballed any school that would go to South Bend to play them. Told programs if they played ND in South Bend, no conference program would play them. That's why ND built up traditional rivalries such as USC and the Service Academies; these programs would play ND home and away. When Notre Dame showed up in the big metropolitan areas as the Catholic team, Catholics would come out to cheer them on. Thus the start of the national fan base. So, the ND side of the story was they were forced to be independent to survive, forced to travel around the country to play teams, made it work, and are not giving it up now. And, they still resent the now Big 10 schools who blackballed them back in the day. Some, like Michigan, are being dropped from future schedules.

The history of the Fighting Irish name comes from an ethnic slur made by the KKK. The Clan tried to infiltrate NW Indiana a few times to be met by ND students in an unfriendly way. They flat out beat 'em up. The Clan made an appeal to the citizens in the area that they should get those "fighting Irish" from Chicago. ND students took it as a compliment and the name stuck.

Michigan State was not affiliated with the big 10 in the 20's, therefor they had nothing to say regarding ND,s entry into the big 10.

Right- would have been Chicago.

As an aside to this conversation, Michigan tried their best to keep MSU out of the Big 10. They were far too arrogant then, and it has only gotten worse over the decades. But ND approaches scUM level arrogance.

Oh, Scorch, you are onto something. Here's exactly what happened. The B10 Presidents went around the room and decided that they could not take a football program tied for the number of national titles, has a fan base all over the country, brings them the Chicago media market in a way NU can't, is a Top 25 undergraduate school, has Top 30 Business and Law schools, has a top 50 Engineering program and thought we can't do it. Look at where their Earth Sciences program ranks!

Riddle me this. If the handful of oddball programs you listed are so important to the B10, why didn't you include Maryland or Rutgers? Nebraska is in the 30's on one list? Wow. Those are some "standards" you got there.

Not that facts matter in your "debate," but the B10 did go after ND in the 90's. ND initially agreed, then the ND Trustees stiffed them in a vote. Don't you remember Gorden Gee's rant last summer about how tough they were to negotiate with?

(10-25-2013 06:15 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  Not that facts matter in your "debate," but the B10 did go after ND in the 90's. ND initially agreed, then the ND Trustees stiffed them in a vote.

And the ND Trustees stiffed them in a vote after facing an alumni revolt in defense of independence.

I recall that, even if its before they were paying attention to that kind of thing for some commentators.

Quote: Don't you remember Gorden Gee's rant last summer about how tough they were to negotiate with?

Yes, which was then politicized with people pretending he was talking about all Catholics.

Long story short when ND did not have the history the Big 10 did not want them but now that they do they have been what the Big 10 has wanted for a long time. The Big 10 schools were more than willing to play against "lesser" schools but did not want to play ND. One big exception is Michigan State which is ND will still play them. I am surprised that an EMU fan would say MSU is one of the worst which I find hard to believe. They are one of the few Big 10 schools willing to play at a MAC stadium especially in their home state. It may cost a 2 or 3 for one but they still do it.

I am not from Ohio. I did not live in Ohio until I went to Kent State. After being here all I can say is that OSU fans suck. The school sucks. And all of the people mocking me for being a Florida fan (parents went there though let me be clear I am KSU first such as when we played in baseball) before those national championship games can all just suck it. It was nice when I got back and they all finally shut up but it took getting embarrassed to shut them up. To top it off the school's administration has a bad attitude so it is top level down full of suck.

(10-25-2013 07:37 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  I am not from Ohio. I did not live in Ohio until I went to Kent State. After being here all I can say is that OSU fans suck. The school sucks. And all of the people mocking me for being a Florida fan (parents went there though let me be clear I am KSU first such as when we played in baseball) before those national championship games can all just suck it. It was nice when I got back and they all finally shut up but it took getting embarrassed to shut them up. To top it off the school's administration has a bad attitude so it is top level down full of suck.

Ohio State is the biggest school in Ohio and wants to portray itself as the #1 school in the state over all the public and private schools.

The truth is OSU isn't #1 in anything aside from size. They aren't #1 in campus. They aren't #1 in selectivity. Columbus isn't even the #1 city in Ohio. For years in fact the school had a poor reputation and High Street was notorious.

(10-25-2013 07:17 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-25-2013 06:15 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  Not that facts matter in your "debate," but the B10 did go after ND in the 90's. ND initially agreed, then the ND Trustees stiffed them in a vote.

And the ND Trustees stiffed them in a vote after facing an alumni revolt in defense of independence.

I recall that, even if its before they were paying attention to that kind of thing for some commentators.

Quote: Don't you remember Gorden Gee's rant last summer about how tough they were to negotiate with?

Yes, which was then politicized with people pretending he was talking about all Catholics.

Gordon Gee was talking about negotiating with Notre Dame. He did so in a crude and clumsy manner, but we are talking about Gordon Gee.

Torch battle is lost. Standards are high enough. Nd was not shut out of the big 10 recently. The big10 would take nd in a heart beat, but they like their tv revenue and rivalries more. Boom.

(10-26-2013 12:05 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Torch battle is lost. Standards are high enough. Nd was not shut out of the big 10 recently. The big10 would take nd in a heart beat, but they like their tv revenue and rivalries more. Boom.

Even if you didn't respect ND's departments for their research its tough to deny the fact its a USNWR Top 20 undergraduate school. Its very much on Northwestern's level academically.

Notre Dame I think has a nice situation for itself in the ACC. They get to play 5 conference games a year in turn for a home in basketball.

Before ND joined the Big East their athletics program overall wasn't strong outside of football. They used their time in the BE wisely to improve their olympic offerings.

(10-25-2013 07:37 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Long story short when ND did not have the history the Big 10 did not want them but now that they do they have been what the Big 10 has wanted for a long time. The Big 10 schools were more than willing to play against "lesser" schools but did not want to play ND. One big exception is Michigan State which is ND will still play them. I am surprised that an EMU fan would say MSU is one of the worst which I find hard to believe. They are one of the few Big 10 schools willing to play at a MAC stadium especially in their home state. It may cost a 2 or 3 for one but they still do it.

I am not from Ohio. I did not live in Ohio until I went to Kent State. After being here all I can say is that OSU fans suck. The school sucks. And all of the people mocking me for being a Florida fan (parents went there though let me be clear I am KSU first such as when we played in baseball) before those national championship games can all just suck it. It was nice when I got back and they all finally shut up but it took getting embarrassed to shut them up. To top it off the school's administration has a bad attitude so it is top level down full of suck.

NotreDame and MichiganSt have a long tradition of being abused by UMich (and the Big10). Someone mentioned that the Big10 blackballed teams that played NotreDame - and MichSt was one of them. Both being outsiders in the midwest - where all the other major FB programs west of Pennsylvania were in the Big10; MichSt and NotreDame played one another.

By the way - the conference was called "the Western Conference" (not "Midwestern") hence UMich's song lyric "the champions of the west".

Not only did UMich keep MichSt out of the Big10 for decades when they were a good fit and a national FB powerhouse - but they even fought against the state allowing MichSt to be designated a "University" because they thought that they should be the only school called a University in the state.

They also insisted (when MichSt was finally allowed into the Big10 over UMich's objections) that MichSt not be allowed to represent the Big10 in the RoseBowl for an extended period (largely because MichSt was one of the strongest FB programs in the country at the time).

In the 1970s, when Bo Schembechler tried to force all Big10 schools to stop playing NotreDame; MichSt was part of the contingent that defied UMich - having suffered the same way NotreDame did from UMich's insecurities.

MichSt did get some revenge though: When OhioSt and UMich tied for the Big10 titile and in their head-to-head meeting; conference by-laws determined that the conference had to vote to determine who should go to the RoseBowl. Despite UMich having a higher ranking and OhioSt having just been to the RoseBowl, MichSt cast the deciding vote to send OhioSt over UMich to the RoseBowl.

I suppose there aren't that many FB fans that remember MichSt as an independent, but they were one for over half their FB-playing years. I think I heard this is their 50th season in the Big10, so they are a relative new-comer compared to most of the rest. This is one of the reasons they had a little history with PennSt (not a ton, but some) before PennSt joined, while most of the rest of the Big10 did not.

And yes, as a CMU fan, I prefer MichSt to the rest of the Big10. When they agreed to visit each Michigan MAC school in FB - that was really a decent thing to do. They didn't have to - they just did. They were also the ones that insisted that if they were going to pay teams to come to East Lansing to get an extra home game - that the money for those games ought to stay in the area (i.e. MAC schools). When they came to CMU - it was a great day for the Chips (even though we didn't win). By far - I prefer the Spartans to any Big10 school. Not even close.

(10-26-2013 10:46 PM)nert Wrote:  

(10-25-2013 07:37 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Long story short when ND did not have the history the Big 10 did not want them but now that they do they have been what the Big 10 has wanted for a long time. The Big 10 schools were more than willing to play against "lesser" schools but did not want to play ND. One big exception is Michigan State which is ND will still play them. I am surprised that an EMU fan would say MSU is one of the worst which I find hard to believe. They are one of the few Big 10 schools willing to play at a MAC stadium especially in their home state. It may cost a 2 or 3 for one but they still do it.

I am not from Ohio. I did not live in Ohio until I went to Kent State. After being here all I can say is that OSU fans suck. The school sucks. And all of the people mocking me for being a Florida fan (parents went there though let me be clear I am KSU first such as when we played in baseball) before those national championship games can all just suck it. It was nice when I got back and they all finally shut up but it took getting embarrassed to shut them up. To top it off the school's administration has a bad attitude so it is top level down full of suck.

NotreDame and MichiganSt have a long tradition of being abused by UMich (and the Big10). Someone mentioned that the Big10 blackballed teams that played NotreDame - and MichSt was one of them. Both being outsiders in the midwest - where all the other major FB programs west of Pennsylvania were in the Big10; MichSt and NotreDame played one another.

By the way - the conference was called "the Western Conference" (not "Midwestern") hence UMich's song lyric "the champions of the west".

Not only did UMich keep MichSt out of the Big10 for decades when they were a good fit and a national FB powerhouse - but they even fought against the state allowing MichSt to be designated a "University" because they thought that they should be the only school called a University in the state.

They also insisted (when MichSt was finally allowed into the Big10 over UMich's objections) that MichSt not be allowed to represent the Big10 in the RoseBowl for an extended period (largely because MichSt was one of the strongest FB programs in the country at the time).

In the 1970s, when Bo Schembechler tried to force all Big10 schools to stop playing NotreDame; MichSt was part of the contingent that defied UMich - having suffered the same way NotreDame did from UMich's insecurities.

MichSt did get some revenge though: When OhioSt and UMich tied for the Big10 titile and in their head-to-head meeting; conference by-laws determined that the conference had to vote to determine who should go to the RoseBowl. Despite UMich having a higher ranking and OhioSt having just been to the RoseBowl, MichSt cast the deciding vote to send OhioSt over UMich to the RoseBowl.

I suppose there aren't that many FB fans that remember MichSt as an independent, but they were one for over half their FB-playing years. I think I heard this is their 50th season in the Big10, so they are a relative new-comer compared to most of the rest. This is one of the reasons they had a little history with PennSt (not a ton, but some) before PennSt joined, while most of the rest of the Big10 did not.

And yes, as a CMU fan, I prefer MichSt to the rest of the Big10. When they agreed to visit each Michigan MAC school in FB - that was really a decent thing to do. They didn't have to - they just did. They were also the ones that insisted that if they were going to pay teams to come to East Lansing to get an extra home game - that the money for those games ought to stay in the area (i.e. MAC schools). When they came to CMU - it was a great day for the Chips (even though we didn't win). By far - I prefer the Spartans to any Big10 school. Not even close.

I wish I would have kept the ND program that had the detail from their side of the story. For the first time this year, they run an article about their history with "conferences." It could be subtitled "Why We Hate The Big 10." Yes, it could have been the Western Conference; I just recall that they
weren't called the Big 10 back in the day but could not recall the name. You are right about another point. The Irish remember who played them and who did not, which is why they will always keep the series with USC, the Service Academies and apparently, Michigan State. They are dropping the series with Michigan.

I understand the animosity toward ND. Some of their fans are truly obnoxious. One of the worst I've run into was a drunk young woman in her 20's, sitting behind me, screaming profanities at an injured Army player being carted off the field. Ugh. My perspective comes from my father in law, who was a receiver for ND, and the Domers from that side of the family. They are pretty realistic about who the Irish are and are not. That, and the fact they are rabid Kent State fans make them OK with me.

I didn't realize UofM treated MSU and ND like dirt a long time ago. It's funny because UofM now wonders why ND won't play them anymore, but the real reason is because that's how UofM treated ND.

I don't like how MSU/Big Ten treats WMU and the MAC, but I can respect them for going to CMU/planning on coming to WMU and EMU still. Also, I remember last year the MSU basketball team played Bowling Green at BGSU. That's another example of MSU being slightly more tolerable then UofM.

(10-26-2013 10:46 PM)nert Wrote:  I suppose there aren't that many FB fans that remember MichSt as an independent, but they were one for over half their FB-playing years. I think I heard this is their 50th season in the Big10, so they are a relative new-comer compared to most of the rest. This is one of the reasons they had a little history with PennSt (not a ton, but some) before PennSt joined, while most of the rest of the Big10 did not.

I wasn't. History always seems to start with those Bubba Smith Mich St teams.

Wikipedia says MSU joined B10 in 1949 in one spot, but in 1953 in another. 1953 makes more sense given the other info presented. So this is the 60th year, but they had some good teams just prior to admission.

Wikipedia says nothing about a snub from UMich.

(10-28-2013 10:09 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  Wikipedia says MSU joined B10 in 1949 in one spot, but in 1953 in another. 1953 makes more sense given the other info presented. So this is the 60th year, but they had some good teams just prior to admission.

Wikipedia says nothing about a snub from UMich.

If it ain't in Wikipedia - then it can't be true. Don't be trying to create history...

...OK, I'm being sarcastic, if that isn't apparent

(10-27-2013 01:50 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I didn't realize UofM treated MSU and ND like dirt a long time ago. It's funny because UofM now wonders why ND won't play them anymore, but the real reason is because that's how UofM treated ND.

I don't like how MSU/Big Ten treats WMU and the MAC, but I can respect them for going to CMU/planning on coming to WMU and EMU still. Also, I remember last year the MSU basketball team played Bowling Green at BGSU. That's another example of MSU being slightly more tolerable then UofM.

Given our history with MichSt, I wouldn't think you need to hedge by saying that they are "planning on coming to WMU and EMU still". In my experience, they do what they promise to do. I think institutionally, they see themselves as having been on the outside of the power system and lucky to have slipped inside. Former MSU player / coach / AD George Perles was a great supporter of the MichSt-MAC games as well.

The only raw deal we've gotten from MichSt has been a certain FB coach...
ok, he isn't terrible, but I think he'd be a better coordinator than a HC.

http://www.amazon.com/Arrogance-Scheming...0615584195

(10-28-2013 10:21 AM)Slinkin Street Flash Wrote:  

(10-28-2013 10:09 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  Wikipedia says MSU joined B10 in 1949 in one spot, but in 1953 in another. 1953 makes more sense given the other info presented. So this is the 60th year, but they had some good teams just prior to admission.

Wikipedia says nothing about a snub from UMich.

If it ain't in Wikipedia - then it can't be true. Don't be trying to create history...

...OK, I'm being sarcastic, if that isn't apparent

I wasn't trying to challenge the assertion about UMich's actions. I was just stating a fact that this aspect of history (true or not) was not on the wikipedia page.