(10-13-2013 11:15 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  Here is another example of why I think libertarians are just straight up nuts. He's got the Ron Paul picture in his avatar while spouting off the most radical far left view on illegal immigration I have ever heard.

We have a process for coming into this country. We have a process for becoming a citizen of the United States. We are not restricting anyone's rights. People from foreign countries do not have a right to be an American citizen and they don't have a right to just walk across our border when they please. Our border is not imaginary. It is what defines our sovereignty.

Learn how to read. I didn't say ANYTHING about illegal immigration. Our process SUCKS. It's more restrictive than it ever was during other waves of immigration. Our laws are only affecting the law-abiding (and often more desirable) immigrants. The crooks and law-breakers are the ones making it here.

Sound familiar to another freedom issue that you agree with? Freedom when it comes to guns, but not a freer immigration?

You need to get your arguments figured out.

(10-13-2013 11:21 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  ts is flat out loony tunes.

WTF is wrong with these people? Are they just crazy or do they lack critical thinking skills?

Freedom for me, but not for thee? That's how it works in your head? Just because they were born "over there" doesn't mean they deserve freedom less than you.

(10-13-2013 11:26 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:21 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  ts is flat out loony tunes.

WTF is wrong with these people? Are they just crazy or do they lack critical thinking skills?

Freedom for me, but not for thee? That's how it works in your head? Just because they were born "over there" doesn't mean they deserve freedom less than you.

You really are nuts man.

We live in a world with boarders and nations and weapons of mass destruction. THAT IS REALITY.

The world is a dangerous place with a lot of very bad people with bad intentions.

You need to stop living in a fantasy world.

(10-13-2013 11:10 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-12-2013 11:52 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  So why is Mexico's laws so extremely harsh toward illegal immigration?

I don't follow...

(10-13-2013 12:08 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Our border with Mexico (or Canada, etc.) is not an "imaginary line".

Borders are significant in many ways. We share little in common with the people of Mexico. We do not share a common language, culture, or values.

Same with our border with Poland, Italy, Ireland, England, etc. etc. etc. But they came and made America better, despite claims similar to the ones you're making.

(10-13-2013 05:40 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  They should be allowed to stay provided they join the military at 18 or are admitted to college full-time at 18. If they finish their military service or graduate college they can start the process of citizenship.

One route is indentured servitude, the other is narrow-minded. These people don't owe us anything. They want freedoms and opportunities. They shouldn't have to jump through 4-year-long hurdles that put their life on the line or waste their time and money. If they want to start a business, why should they have to spend 4-years in the army first? If they want to work in a factory, or a field, why should they spend their money on college?

Quote:The US can not be the welfare state for any one who can get past our borders. We near the tipping point now. The working can not support the non-working no matter how much our hearts bleed.

So, the issue is with the benefits that come with citizenship (or even before) and NOT with freer immigration. THAT's what you need to complain about rather than restricting someone's freedom by not allowing them in.

In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

(10-13-2013 11:32 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

So Mexico is our example to follow now?

Also, Buy your insurance or face the penalty. OBEY THE LAW. "The law is the law", right?

(10-13-2013 11:24 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:15 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  Here is another example of why I think libertarians are just straight up nuts. He's got the Ron Paul picture in his avatar while spouting off the most radical far left view on illegal immigration I have ever heard.

We have a process for coming into this country. We have a process for becoming a citizen of the United States. We are not restricting anyone's rights. People from foreign countries do not have a right to be an American citizen and they don't have a right to just walk across our border when they please. Our border is not imaginary. It is what defines our sovereignty.

Learn how to read. I didn't say ANYTHING about illegal immigration. Our process SUCKS. It's more restrictive than it ever was during other waves of immigration. Our laws are only affecting the law-abiding (and often more desirable) immigrants. The crooks and law-breakers are the ones making it here.

Sound familiar to another freedom issue that you agree with? Freedom when it comes to guns, but not a freer immigration?

You need to get your arguments figured out.

Once again dude. We are the most welcoming nation on earth. Go compare our immigration numbers to any other nation on the planet. I dare you.

Our system is NOT the problem. The problem is those who do not want to enforce our laws. We are not landing spot for all the world's poor. It is Mexico's responsibility to provide economic stability for its citizens.

Our own citizens cannot even find jobs and you people want to flood our country with 3rd world refugees using sob stories as your selling speech. There is nothing wrong with the laws we have on the books. The only part of our immigration system that is broken are the people who exploit and bypass it for political gain. IE the Democrats.

These people will out populate us in matter of one or two generations. If you want America to resemble the country we know now, you will demand that our naturalization and immigration laws be followed. They are there for a reason. There is no imaginary line or grey issue attached.

I also suggest you do a little research into Reconquista and the huge movement attached to that. It's not all some liberal feel good story about Luis and Rosa coming to American to live the dream.

Who is going to support all of these people that you want to allow in, even legally?
If they don't speak English and are poorly educated they come here and leech off of the system.
You are essentially setting up the US to be the charity provider for the world by allowing anyone who wants to come to the US in.

Educate yourself...look into how well East Germans have assimilated and produced for Germany after unification or whether they are a drag on the German economy. Or check into the over run of Sweden and Norway with Turks and Somalies due to generous welfare programs. Or do some research on the affects of foreign emigrants to the UK. The French have had problems with emigrants too. The emigrants gravitate to these countries for the welfare.

(10-13-2013 11:35 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:32 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

So Mexico is our example to follow now?

Also, Buy your insurance or face the penalty. OBEY THE LAW. "The law is the law", right?

Now you are struggling.

BTW Mexico erected a huge wall on its southern border.

One of the biggest reasons that Rome fell in the 5th century A.D. was because of its inability to control and secure it's own borders and prevent the Huns, Vandalls and Goths from moving in and settling in the empire. These people were the barbarians and savages who sacked Rome in 410 and 476 which led to it's death, the end of civilization and the rise of a 1000 year dark age. The samething is happening to the United States

(10-13-2013 11:35 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:32 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

So Mexico is our example to follow now?

Also, Buy your insurance or face the penalty. OBEY THE LAW. "The law is the law", right?

The people of Mexico have every right to enforce and control it's borders. But the US doesn't.

Eric Holder found in Contempt of Congress. He didn't OBEY THE LAW. A budget has to be passed EVERY YEAR, Do we have one? OBEY THE LAW. Obama gave amnesty to some illegals, did he OBEY THE LAW? The IRS broke the law and divulged records, did they OBEY THE LAW. According to law, Welfare recipients are supposed to be looking for work, Zero said no they don't. OBEY THE LAW.

We have a lawless liberal administration, and you are their cheerleader.

(10-13-2013 11:41 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:35 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:32 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

So Mexico is our example to follow now?

Also, Buy your insurance or face the penalty. OBEY THE LAW. "The law is the law", right?

Now you are struggling.

BTW Mexico erected a huge wall on its southern border.

He is so passionet about this issue yet he clearly deomstrats he knows NOTHING about it on any level.

That is, beyond his personal fantasy of what it should be.

If you are going to argue these things, at least know a little bit about it.

(10-13-2013 11:39 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  Once again dude. We are the most welcoming nation on earth. Go compare our immigration numbers to any other nation on the planet. I dare you.

Our system is NOT the problem. The problem is those who do not want to enforce our laws. We are not landing spot for all the world's poor. It is Mexico's responsibility to provide economic stability for its citizens.

Our own citizens cannot even find jobs and you people want to flood our country with 3rd world refugees using sob stories as your selling speech. There is nothing wrong with the laws we have on the books. The only part of our immigration system that is broken are the people who exploit and bypass it for political gain. IE the Democrats.

These people will out populate us in matter of one or two generations. If you want America to resemble the country we know now, you will demand that our naturalization and immigration laws be followed. They are there for a reason. There is no imaginary line or grey issue attached.

I also suggest you do a little research into Reconquista and the huge movement attached to that. It's not all some liberal feel good story about Luis and Rosa coming to American to live the dream.

You're the guy that was against the Southern Europeans coming over here. They were uncivilized, loud, lazy, and held onto their national identity more than an American one. And then against the Eastern Europeans. They were dirty, uneducated, lived in squalor, and would never learn english. These people even lived in neighborhoods where they didn't have to learn a new language!!! Imagine the outrage!

However, their kids learned english and assimilated. And their grand-kids never even learned the old language. Finally they came across ways to recognize their history, but did so in such an irreverent way that it had no REAL connection to their homeland (Columbus Day, St. Patrick's Day, etc.). You have zero knowledge of our history of immigration and are just looking at the fear-mongering from your favorite blogs and YouTube channels.

While I'm always skeptical things that "create jobs", this is one that actually does. These immigrants come in and take the low-paying, unskilled jobs, creating opportunities for experienced managers (who get paid more). These communities demand services and goods from established industries as well as start-up opportunities for immigrants.

All of our government's attempts to curb ethnic groups, or limit immigration overall have backfired. Limiting Japanese immigration in 1907 and limiting Eastern and Southern European immigrants in the 1920s led to surging Mexican numbers and started us on the path we're on now. 1965's changes designed to make it easier for Europeans to come (now that we've realized that they weren't as bad as we thought) didn't do that at all. We ended the Bracero guest worker program around then as well, which boosted illegal immigration from the negligible numbers the program had fostered. During Clinton's time laws were passed which further boosted illegal residents by keeping them here, instead of traveling seasonally.

Educate yourself and you'll see that immigrants will come whether it is legal or not. However, the law-abiding, wealthy (and therefore less desperate) will avoid the hassle if immigration is too difficult. Make it easy. Get a better crop of immigrants. Stop denying freedom to those that want it.

(10-13-2013 11:54 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:41 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:35 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:32 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  In Mexico if you are caught there illegally, you go to prison. Follow now? Capish? OBEY THEFUCKING LAW.

So Mexico is our example to follow now?

Also, Buy your insurance or face the penalty. OBEY THE LAW. "The law is the law", right?

Now you are struggling.

BTW Mexico erected a huge wall on its southern border.

He is so passionet about this issue yet he clearly deomstrats he knows NOTHING about it on any level.

That is, beyond his personal fantasy of what it should be.

If you are going to argue these things, at least know a little bit about it.

I lived in Arizona for about 7 years. He ought to come on down and see the battle ground. We have portions of the southwestern United States completely controlled by Mexico. They are taking it back and white liberals far from the border are making sure no one stops them.

Hell, entire portions of OKC now are completely operated in Spanish. We are becoming strangers in our own land. These people who are for all this open border nonsense are still living under the illusion that it won't eventually affect their neighborhood. As long as they don't see it, or have to deal with it, they support it. When anyone speaks out about their land being transformed by people who have NO RIGHT to be here, they just resort to the trusty ole racism dialogue.

(10-13-2013 11:40 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Who is going to support all of these people that you want to allow in, even legally?
If they don't speak English and are poorly educated they come here and leech off of the system.
You are essentially setting up the US to be the charity provider for the world by allowing anyone who wants to come to the US in.

Educate yourself...look into how well East Germans have assimilated and produced for Germany after unification or whether they are a drag on the German economy. Or check into the over run of Sweden and Norway with Turks and Somalies due to generous welfare programs. Or do some research on the affects of foreign emigrants to the UK. The French have had problems with emigrants too. The emigrants gravitate to these countries for the welfare.

Then fix the ******* welfare system. You're making things worse by addressing the symptoms instead of the cause.

(10-13-2013 12:01 PM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 11:40 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Who is going to support all of these people that you want to allow in, even legally?
If they don't speak English and are poorly educated they come here and leech off of the system.
You are essentially setting up the US to be the charity provider for the world by allowing anyone who wants to come to the US in.

Educate yourself...look into how well East Germans have assimilated and produced for Germany after unification or whether they are a drag on the German economy. Or check into the over run of Sweden and Norway with Turks and Somalies due to generous welfare programs. Or do some research on the affects of foreign emigrants to the UK. The French have had problems with emigrants too. The emigrants gravitate to these countries for the welfare.

Then fix the ******* welfare system. You're making things worse by addressing the symptoms instead of the cause.

So agree that we should take away the incentives for illegal aliens.. That's a step.

(10-13-2013 12:00 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  Hell, entire portions of OKC now are completely operated in Spanish. We are becoming strangers in our own land.

You don't think vast portions of NYC used a language other than english? These people came in here, assimilated over time, and (likely) ended up giving birth to YOU. You are ignorant to history.

(10-13-2013 12:02 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  So agree that we should take away the incentives for illegal aliens.. That's a step.

Take it away from everyone! Legal, illegal, Mexican, Indian, White, Black, etc.

(10-13-2013 11:59 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  You're the guy that was against the Southern Europeans coming over here. They were uncivilized, loud, lazy, and held onto their national identity more than an American one. And then against the Eastern Europeans. They were dirty, uneducated, lived in squalor, and would never learn english. These people even lived in neighborhoods where they didn't have to learn a new language!!! Imagine the outrage!

However, their kids learned english and assimilated. And their grand-kids never even learned the old language. Finally they came across ways to recognize their history, but did so in such an irreverent way that it had no REAL connection to their homeland (Columbus Day, St. Patrick's Day, etc.). You have zero knowledge of our history of immigration and are just looking at the fear-mongering from your favorite blogs and YouTube channels.

While I'm always skeptical things that "create jobs", this is one that actually does. These immigrants come in and take the low-paying, unskilled jobs, creating opportunities for experienced managers (who get paid more). These communities demand services and goods from established industries as well as start-up opportunities for immigrants.

All of our government's attempts to curb ethnic groups, or limit immigration overall have backfired. Limiting Japanese immigration in 1907 and limiting Eastern and Southern European immigrants in the 1920s led to surging Mexican numbers and started us on the path we're on now. 1965's changes designed to make it easier for Europeans to come (now that we've realized that they weren't as bad as we thought) didn't do that at all. We ended the Bracero guest worker program around then as well, which boosted illegal immigration from the negligible numbers the program had fostered. During Clinton's time laws were passed which further boosted illegal residents by keeping them here, instead of traveling seasonally.

Educate yourself and you'll see that immigrants will come whether it is legal or not. However, the law-abiding, wealthy (and therefore less desperate) will avoid the hassle if immigration is too difficult. Make it easy. Get a better crop of immigrants. Stop denying freedom to those that want it.

Your arguments have already been shot down with about 100 different points of logic and you refuse to aknowledge or address even one of them.

Oh, you forgot one small detail....This nation wasn't 17 trillion dollars in the hole in ANY of those examples you pasted.

Cutting and pasting historical material does nothing but expose your lack of context and knowledge on this issue that much more. It seems you are looking some of this up for the first time.

You really understand NOTHING.

(10-13-2013 11:54 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  He is so passionet about this issue yet he clearly deomstrats he knows NOTHING about it on any level.

Like you and spelling?

I know plenty about this. I've cited specific law changes that have fostered MORE illegal immigration. I've shown how your arguments are ignorant to history. Think about something, do some research (real research, not just anecdotes from teh interwebs), and come to your own conclusion.