(10-17-2013 05:38 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Schnellenberger was saying that if We got into a conference that We needed to join the BE. He left when CUSA came about.

I tended to remember him being anti-conference period. Especially since he was so opposed to the notion of the Metro Super Conference which essentially would have been the Big East football conference (plus the Metro conference). I am not doubting you, I just had never heard that, and it seems odd.

(10-17-2013 09:44 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  While it's true that UCF would still make more money than in the American, I really really doubt they actually made that ECU-to Big East-type offer. I also don't think Memphis did that either. But it's fun to talk about

I would tend to agree with you, but under the circumstances, that is still such a much better deal, I could not completely dismiss it as an option. Not saying they offered it, but if the Big 12 came to them and gave them that option, "we'll invite you but you only get 50% revenue sharing until 2025," do you think that would take it? Now it's a horrible idea, because it ensures the team is never truly a member of the conference, gives them permanent second class citizenship, and is the kind of greed that caused several teams to leave. But do you think they would take that offer if it was given? I think so.

(10-17-2013 08:08 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 06:25 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  The Big 12 will not expand unless the playoff committee tells us we have to. If that happens, the Big 12 will get a permanent death sentence with no possible stay of execution.

Let's assume this is true for a moment. IF this is true, then you see the very reasoning that will destroy the B12 long term. Note the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland. These two schools, vs many many other schools brought nothing in terms of national appeal and on field performance. Let's be honest. The B1G was looking for additions for other reasons.

I am not a big fan of the Big Ten by any stretch. But my goodness their leadership is top notch. Instead of seeing what works best for each program, they truly all look to see what is best for the whole, knowing that what I best for the whole, is best for the individual in the long run. The NFL does a lot of this too. The Big Ten made two ingenious moves. One, we all know the history of the Big Ten Network. Who each school forgave extra revenue they could have pocketed and invested it in the network and are not reaping the benefits. But you know what move they made that shows sheer genius: adding Rutgers and Maryland. Why was it such a good move? Because with the playoffs coming up, the new contracts for bowls, the NCAA tournament contract steadily increasing, they had a chance at a low risk investment with potentially high rewards, and they took it. Instead of just paying everyone a little more, they decide to expand with two expansion franchises who don’t offer an immediate increase in revenue. Why is this important Because now the Big Ten can pay them an equal share (or close), not have to prematurely extend media rights, and lose the free agent leverage, while still paying everyone what they were making before. Essentially the playoff money is being used to finance their expansion, while they wait to monetize them. To me, that is genius.

Now let’s take a look around the rest of the college landscape, and to see what everyone else did with their newfound money.

• • SEC – not wanting to extend its TV contract out, they use the extra revenue to slightly increase payouts, but work an agreement with ESPN to start an SEC Network of which some of the new money will be used to help fund start-up costs.
  • PAC 12 – Distribute some of the excess revenue and encourage teams to invest in their infrastructure, such as bad teams hiring new, well known coaches. Encourage teams to schedule more home and home games to improve the profile of the conference (does result in loss of 0.5 home games) and invest in improving PAC 12 Network.
  • Big East – Use the money to buy freedom and retain its most valuable asset: the name
  • ACC – Use money as a way to profit share and encourage Notre Dame to join as a partial member in, which in terms increases TV contract, and creates interest in a possible conference TV Network to go with digital network. Small increases to each team.
  • Big 12 – Hold press conferences were it rains money and Champaign, and brag about how much money each school will be paid, and telling everyone there is no need to expand because each team will receive a few less gold plates.

One of these is unlike the others.

(10-17-2013 10:58 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(10-17-2013 08:08 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 06:25 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  The Big 12 will not expand unless the playoff committee tells us we have to. If that happens, the Big 12 will get a permanent death sentence with no possible stay of execution.

Let's assume this is true for a moment. IF this is true, then you see the very reasoning that will destroy the B12 long term. Note the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland. These two schools, vs many many other schools brought nothing in terms of national appeal and on field performance. Let's be honest. The B1G was looking for additions for other reasons.

I am not a big fan of the Big Ten by any stretch. But my goodness their leadership is top notch. Instead of seeing what works best for each program, they truly all look to see what is best for the whole, knowing that what I best for the whole, is best for the individual in the long run. The NFL does a lot of this too. The Big Ten made two ingenious moves. One, we all know the history of the Big Ten Network. Who each school forgave extra revenue they could have pocketed and invested it in the network and are not reaping the benefits. But you know what move they made that shows sheer genius: adding Rutgers and Maryland. Why was it such a good move? Because with the playoffs coming up, the new contracts for bowls, the NCAA tournament contract steadily increasing, they had a chance at a low risk investment with potentially high rewards, and they took it. Instead of just paying everyone a little more, they decide to expand with two expansion franchises who don’t offer an immediate increase in revenue. Why is this important Because now the Big Ten can pay them an equal share (or close), not have to prematurely extend media rights, and lose the free agent leverage, while still paying everyone what they were making before. Essentially the playoff money is being used to finance their expansion, while they wait to monetize them. To me, that is genius.

Now let’s take a look around the rest of the college landscape, and to see what everyone else did with their newfound money.

• • SEC – not wanting to extend its TV contract out, they use the extra revenue to slightly increase payouts, but work an agreement with ESPN to start an SEC Network of which some of the new money will be used to help fund start-up costs.
  • PAC 12 – Distribute some of the excess revenue and encourage teams to invest in their infrastructure, such as bad teams hiring new, well known coaches. Encourage teams to schedule more home and home games to improve the profile of the conference (does result in loss of 0.5 home games) and invest in improving PAC 12 Network.
  • Big East – Use the money to buy freedom and retain its most valuable asset: the name
  • ACC – Use money as a way to profit share and encourage Notre Dame to join as a partial member in, which in terms increases TV contract, and creates interest in a possible conference TV Network to go with digital network. Small increases to each team.
  • Big 12 – Hold press conferences were it rains money and Champaign, and brag about how much money each school will be paid, and telling everyone there is no need to expand because each team will receive a few less gold plates.

One of these is unlike the others.

Yes, the last one made a good decision.

I'm not sure the Big East name was worth what they paid. Although most of that money was morally if not legally due the football schools anyway since it was exit fees for football schools.

The rest have megasized which is not a good thing. At least the Big 10 and SEC expanded with schools with huge possible upsides. Not the case with most of the AAC schools or the ACC expansion schools. Pitt, SU and UL are pretty much, what you see is what you get.

Also, rather than dumping cash into a cable investment, the Big 12 is letting the experts, Fox and ESPN, invest while the Big 12 schools keep the cash. And the Big 12 has had massive investment in facilities. Baylor is building a new stadium. TCU completely rebuilt theirs. Everyone else has plans.

(10-17-2013 06:36 AM)lofi Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 09:15 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 05:29 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 03:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 02:00 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  Ha. I was thinking about the same thing. Is there a school talked about on this board more than WVU? It's quite flattering.

Yes, insane people tend to get a lot of attention.

It's sort of like some drunk fan stripping down to the buff, running onto the field of play screaming all types of nonsense to anyone who would listen, getting apprehended by security, and then as you are being dragged to the klink wondering what the fuss is all about and why everyone in the stadium was fixated on you?

Because you're nuts, that why!

If only Pitt had any fans that cared enough about their program to say anything. But since they don't...

Good one (I think). However that does not change the fact that a grossly inordinate amount of West Virginia fans have very publicly schitt all over themselves during this whole expansion process and I don't think too many fans of other schools have come away thinking more highly of WVU than they thought of them going in. I think most sane people think most of your fans are batschitt crazy. As someone who has spent a lot of time around WVU fans over the years, I can confirm those suspicions.

I can understand that you as a Pitt fan find 15 to 20 people to be a grossly inordinate amount.
I am constantly amazed at how many people on this board continue to get their panties in a wad by some silly rumors spewed by the same guys who have been proven wrong time and time again.
They may be "batschitt crazy" but apparently you guys keep listening.
I can't wait for the Dudes next proclamation so we can have another 20 page thread about nothing.

If most sane people think most of our fans are crazy, those sane people are complete and utter morons. There are a few very vocal, and usually very drunk fans who pull the same crap over and over. And then some people go back to their big cities and say that all people in West Virginia are nuts - using the same stupid stereotypes that have been used for over a century - because they haven't the intelligence or creativity to think up something new...

Every fanbase has drunken morons making visiting fans cringe. But WVU is the only school that gets national publicity for any incident, no matter how small, whether it's associated with the game or not. I remember one year there was an incident on I-79 that ESPiN came out and claimed was a problem between a WVU fan and a visiting fan, that WV State Police later identified as a passing motorist from Pennsylvania causing a disturbance due to being caught in the game traffic. But ESPiN and many fans around the nation still blamed it on WVU and fans long after the official report came out with facts showing otherwise...

Doc, you may have had a bad experience. But I'd be willing to bet you did your best to escalate the argument as well. I've been to enough Pitt-WVU games, at every stadium we've ever played at, to know that Pitt fans aren't innocent, and many of the ones who do all the complaining are just as big a problem as the drunken WVU fans they complain about...

This is one of many reasons I'm glad WVU is now in the B12, and hope we stick with 10 schools, since it's the perfect size for a conference playing a 9 game schedule. We also don't have visiting fans or media accustomed to throwing out stereotypical insults all the time, and actually appreciate West Virginia's scenery and fans...

Doc, nobody in the B12 has had an experience such as you describe while visiting Morgantown. So IMO the incidents you discuss have as much to do with the fans visiting, as they do WVU fans. But the visiting fans lay all the blame on WVU and it's fans, because what big city person is going to take the word of some hillbilly over the word of someone from the city...

The experts at ESPN did wonders for Texas

Bit, the young drunk fans of West Virginia are no drunker or ruder than the young drunk fans of UK. With that said both schools students are the rudest student fans that I have see. Now West Virginia adult fans with families are all good folks. So I have mix opinions on West Virginia football fans. I feel most West Virginia fans are good people. However, the danger of the out of control students make many visitors to not want return ever again. I think the University and the Morgantown police should do a better job of controlling the behavior of rowdies at the game!

Wilkie, B12 fans don't seem to have a similar opinion. All of the ones I've talked to have enjoyed their trip to Morgantown, and consider it a uniquely singular experience...

(10-17-2013 08:08 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 06:25 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 12:28 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-16-2013 09:38 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I don't see why the big 12 and byu don't agree to a football only deal right now and they just jump to 11 football school's like the big 10 did for years. BYU has about a 70,000 seat stadium that would fill up for a big 12 schedule with a national following, seems like an easy move.

Because BYU had their chance and blew it. They were unwilling to make a compromise to the B12. So why should the B12 compromise on their position in order to benefit BYU?

If all the compromises are on the side holding all the cards, it should be one heck of a benefit for the conference in order for that compromise to be made. BYU doesn't fit the bill, and never will...

Ding, ding, ding. Someone gets it. The Big 12 will not expand unless we can get a Florida St, Clemson type school. The last time I checked NO ONE comes close to adding what those schools would add.

The Big 12 will not expand unless the playoff committee tells us we have to. If that happens, the Big 12 will get a permanent death sentence with no possible stay of execution.

Let's assume this is true for a moment. IF this is true, then you see the very reasoning that will destroy the B12 long term. Note the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland. These two schools, vs many many other schools brought nothing in terms of national appeal and on field performance. Let's be honest. The B1G was looking for additions for other reasons. The B12, if what you are saying is true, is looking ONLY for teams that have some national sexiness and bring immediate on field weight. Those teams are not available. Therefore they will not expand. This very reasoning is why you have WVA on an island right now and also the very reason that of the P5 conferences, your the one's on constant topic about losing teams, imploding, etc. Note the B1G, Pac12, SEC, and ACC are not talked about in this light like the B12 is. If the B12 wants to expand, and do it right they need to take a different attitude/approach. They need to look at markets, recruiting areas, strategic additions. The B12 is viewed currently as being very short sighted. UT/OU can take this approach because they could care less. THey can bolt at any time, they both have golden parachutes (Texas Tech and Oks st by virtue of your connection to UT/OU respectively). So I can understand you four not wanting to add anybody but a "FSU/CLEMSON" type duo. The rest of the teams in the B12 are the ones going to be hurt. Nebraska, TAMU, Mizzou, CU all saw the this and the hand writing that was on the wall...notice they bolted because they COULD. If the B12 was smart, they would act as a conference, not just in the best interest of UT/OU and would have added UofL, WVA, Cincy, and TCU when they had the chance. None of this would be a discussion right now had they done this. B12 has another shot, we will see if they make the same mistake or learn.

The Big 10 has a conference network and they added states to get more viewers and more $$$. The Big 12 doesn't have a conference network and needs big name schools that have fans. Simple as that.

(10-17-2013 11:14 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  f most sane people think most of our fans are crazy, those sane people are complete and utter morons. There are a few very vocal, and usually very drunk fans who pull the same crap over and over. And then some people go back to their big cities and say that all people in West Virginia are nuts - using the same stupid stereotypes that have been used for over a century - because they haven't the intelligence or creativity to think up something new...

Bit I have to tell you. I will not ever say everyone in WV is crazy, because I used toenjoy travelling thru there. But in my experience, and I have been to 8 West Virginia games; three WVU home games (versus Louisville, Pitt, and Maryland, 3 UofL home games vs. West Virginia, and two Maryland home games vs. West Virginia. And to a T, I'd say 25% of the fans I encountered matched the description above. That's eight separate experiences, not a small sample size. And a consistent response. I am not even talking about your digital fans and their shenanigans.

You may not see it, but I can tell you, your fans have a bad reputation. Deserved or not, this is an experience and perception about WVU fans. And in my experience, it is a well earned reputation. Your home fans better fit your description: a few drunken idiots causing trouble (though probably a but more than "a few). But your travelling fans: the ones who go to visiting stadiums. They are the ones who give you a bad name. I have never seen any other fanbase who's fans come to town and simply look to start shit. Everyone else it seems is cordial (even the Kentucky fans who come to Louisville games are far more respectful, and I generally would not piss on them to put out a fire), but WVU fans go out of their way to start fights, be unruly, and generally cause trouble. And I am referring to a large number of those fans who travel, much larger than anyone else. THAT is why you guys get this reputation. Because it is earned.

(10-17-2013 08:08 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Let's assume this is true for a moment. IF this is true, then you see the very reasoning that will destroy the B12 long term. Note the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland. These two schools, vs many many other schools brought nothing in terms of national appeal and on field performance. Let's be honest. The B1G was looking for additions for other reasons. The B12, if what you are saying is true, is looking ONLY for teams that have some national sexiness and bring immediate on field weight. Those teams are not available. Therefore they will not expand. This very reasoning is why you have WVA on an island right now and also the very reason that of the P5 conferences, your the one's on constant topic about losing teams, imploding, etc. Note the B1G, Pac12, SEC, and ACC are not talked about in this light like the B12 is. If the B12 wants to expand, and do it right they need to take a different attitude/approach. They need to look at markets, recruiting areas, strategic additions. The B12 is viewed currently as being very short sighted. UT/OU can take this approach because they could care less. THey can bolt at any time, they both have golden parachutes (Texas Tech and Oks st by virtue of your connection to UT/OU respectively). So I can understand you four not wanting to add anybody but a "FSU/CLEMSON" type duo. The rest of the teams in the B12 are the ones going to be hurt. Nebraska, TAMU, Mizzou, CU all saw the this and the hand writing that was on the wall...notice they bolted because they COULD. If the B12 was smart, they would act as a conference, not just in the best interest of UT/OU and would have added UofL, WVA, Cincy, and TCU when they had the chance. None of this would be a discussion right now had they done this. B12 has another shot, we will see if they make the same mistake or learn.

But your argument is essentially that teams that have little to no market monetization (ISU and KSU for example) should willingly accept even less money via expansion? Why, so that it's harder to dissolve the conference in 10 years? And while I know some assert that the CCG money keep the finances stable, I remain doubtful due to the fact that the B12 North teams would lose guaranteed home games versus either OU/UT they enjoy in the RR format. IMO all the teams in the B12 are happy with 10 teams for various reasons not just OU and UT.

Off topic here, the best travelling fan base BY FAR, without hesitation, is Kansas State. Not so much in numbers, although they did bring about 6,000 fans during a down period. They were the best because Not only were they hospitable, it seemed as though they all felt it was their duty to all feed us some of the excellent BBQ they brought. I almost didn't make it into the game due to BBW coma.

Plus, I will forever be greatful to the guy who showed me what I was doing wrong with my BBQ chicken (I never knew to brush it with olive oil to keep in crispy) to tighten up my otherwise solid BBQ'ing skills.

Hasn't FedEx openly stated, albeit a few years ago, they would give any BCS conference that accepts Memphis $10M/year? That's probably what that $10M is. It definitely wouldn't come from Memphis itself.

And if I'm Memphis or UCF (or USF, UC, etc), you KNOW you're going to have to make concessions and that you won't be a full revenue-receiving member for several years in the Big 12. That's what TCU and WVU are doing, but both are still receiving more money than they would have. By the time the current contract expires you will have been full members for quite some time at that point.

Even if you had to do the Memphis-no-revenue-for-3-years or UCF-half-revenue-for-remainder-of-the-contract thing, why wouldn't you?
1. More money
2. More exposure
3. Better recruiting
4. Better peers
5. And, uh, yea, you'd have a seat at the future football playoff table as well as being assured of included in any D-4 realignment.

You'd be stupid not to make some short term concessions. Rather be a temporary 2nd class citizen in a 1st class conference than 1st class in a 2nd class conference.

(10-17-2013 01:17 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Hasn't FedEx openly stated, albeit a few years ago, they would give any BCS conference that accepts Memphis $10M/year? That's probably what that $10M is. It definitely wouldn't come from Memphis itself.

And if I'm Memphis or UCF (or USF, UC, etc), you KNOW you're going to have to make concessions and that you won't be a full revenue-receiving member for several years in the Big 12. That's what TCU and WVU are doing, but both are still receiving more money than they would have. By the time the current contract expires you will have been full members for quite some time at that point.

Even if you had to do the Memphis-no-revenue-for-3-years or UCF-half-revenue-for-remainder-of-the-contract thing, why wouldn't you?
1. More money
2. More exposure
3. Better recruiting
4. Better peers
5. And, uh, yea, you'd have a seat at the future football playoff table as well as being assured of included in any D-4 realignment.

You'd be stupid not to make some short term concessions. Rather be a temporary 2nd class citizen in a 1st class conference than 1st class in a 2nd class conference.

TCU and WVU are both following the entry process into the XII. They start with a 50% share the first year, then work up to a full share by the 4th year. That's not a special concession, that's the XII's SOP.

(10-17-2013 01:17 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Hasn't FedEx openly stated, albeit a few years ago, they would give any BCS conference that accepts Memphis $10M/year? That's probably what that $10M is. It definitely wouldn't come from Memphis itself.

And if I'm Memphis or UCF (or USF, UC, etc), you KNOW you're going to have to make concessions and that you won't be a full revenue-receiving member for several years in the Big 12. That's what TCU and WVU are doing, but both are still receiving more money than they would have. By the time the current contract expires you will have been full members for quite some time at that point.

Even if you had to do the Memphis-no-revenue-for-3-years or UCF-half-revenue-for-remainder-of-the-contract thing, why wouldn't you?
1. More money
2. More exposure
3. Better recruiting
4. Better peers
5. And, uh, yea, you'd have a seat at the future football playoff table as well as being assured of included in any D-4 realignment.

You'd be stupid not to make some short term concessions. Rather be a temporary 2nd class citizen in a 1st class conference than 1st class in a 2nd class conference.

Absolutely you'd be stupid, mainly because the BigXII holds all the cards in that negotiation. If they were proposing 1/2 revenue and UCF said know, they'd simply pick up the phone and call USF or Cincy or whoever, in fact they'd probably have them already on hold on another line.

(10-17-2013 11:09 AM)bullet Wrote:  Also, rather than dumping cash into a cable investment, the Big 12 is letting the experts, Fox and ESPN, invest while the Big 12 schools keep the cash.

Yeah, that's what they are doing.

It is as simply as what is the best long term strategy: paying dividends in cash, or reinvesting dividends. One is a short term gain, one is a long term gain. Tried and proven over decades.

(10-17-2013 05:38 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Schnellenberger was saying that if We got into a conference that We needed to join the BE. He left when CUSA came about.

I'm picking nits here, but I think Schnellenberger left before C-USA even thought about really inviting FAU/FIU. This is Pelini's second year and FAU came into the conference (C-USA) after his first season. But you're right, Howard did not favor coming to C-USA and made no bones about it. But I don't think he left as a result of it.

(10-17-2013 02:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(10-17-2013 11:09 AM)bullet Wrote:  Also, rather than dumping cash into a cable investment, the Big 12 is letting the experts, Fox and ESPN, invest while the Big 12 schools keep the cash.

Yeah, that's what they are doing.

It is as simply as what is the best long term strategy: paying dividends in cash, or reinvesting dividends. One is a short term gain, one is a long term gain. Tried and proven over decades.

Or having those closest to the action spending the money (the schools) vs. someone removed (the conference). Does you local government know better what your city needs or does DC?

A better analogy would be is money better spent when each city does everything individually, including redundancies, or does having the state oversee a portion of it to ensure everyone thrives individually and together.

Also using your analogy, it would be best to ask, is it best to have both the federal government and the local government over see things, or for every local government to survive on their own, with no one to oversee what happens from one city to another. You are suggesting it is best for the local government to do everything. I am suggesting it is best as a joint venture.

You can believe which way you want, but imperial evidence shows that the joint venture is far to the local side as you will see work, with many examples going further the other way. The purely local options are known as Amish Farms and Native American reservations. Well, and maybe California