You guys know what's way more convincing than sending a "promise I'll pay" email?

Actually paying. Just give the money, that will show you mean business. Why should they believe just because someone pledges? You'd have to be a sucker to buy that just because someone you've never met makes that promise.

(10-09-2013 07:52 AM)JMUDuke25 Wrote:  You couldn't even finish your post without putting a stipulation on traveling.

Good job seeing what you wanted to see in my post, not what I meant.

The last bowl I went to was the Pinstripe Bowl between two teams I don't care about in a snow storm. I think I'll be able to handle a cold weather JMU bowl...

(10-09-2013 07:54 AM)Jay M. Youix Wrote:  You guys know what's way more convincing than sending a "promise I'll pay" email?

Actually paying. Just give the money, that will show you mean business. Why should they believe just because someone pledges? You'd have to be a sucker to buy that just because someone you've never met makes that promise.

Normally I'd agree 100% but... Remember the vision JMU athletics has provided the fan base, I don't. The PR blunder we have seen for two years is more than enough reason for the fan base to have the "show me" mentality before they open a wallet.

King, this week said "we may stay where we are"

We can't keep making excuses for the admin.

Quote:King, this week said "we may stay where we are"

King did say that, but it's lip service. The Carr report removed any doubt about us moving....if we stay in the CAA, it is simply because we have nowhere to go.

(10-09-2013 07:52 AM)JMUDuke25 Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 07:41 AM)NYJMUPIKE Wrote:  As someone who has been to multiple bowl games: I would say the players, coaches, and fans definitely treat them as if they were playoff games. The hitting is clearly ramped up a notch or two from the regular season, and for those 3-4 hours that game matters a whole hell of a lot.

I wonder if all of the people on this board that claim bowls are meaningless have ever actually been to one?

I personally would be very excited to see JMU play in a bowl, whatever bowl that may be. I would do my best to travel every time we were selected, especially to a warm weather one.

You couldn't even finish your post without putting a stipulation on traveling. Not singling you out but this is how many fans feels about bowl games. Other good excuses are spending holiday time with the family instead of traveling for football or the cost to fly to some of these places. It ain't cheap to go to the Hawaii Bowl or even the New Mexico Bowl.

The bowl numbers speak for themselves. It's a money drain on the schools that participate and fans largely don't give a crap about the games. Sure we would the first or second time we made a bowl but we would become spoiled kids pretty quickly like other teams are.

to further this point, the trend in bowl games now is to NOT make long term commitments to any conference.

and the matchups are becoming more and more BCS vs BCS. The number of BCS leagues playing G5 leagues is getting smaller, and likely to continue to do so.

i have doubts about whether people will travel to the Bahamas during holiday season to see us play Western Michigan. Or to Shreveport, La two days before Xmas to see us play Arkansas State.

It's just NOT going to be the "bowl" experience you guys think of. It's not going to be in Orlando against Georgia Tech..or Arkansas....or Baylor....or even Oregon State. and it sure as hell isn't going to be against the real big boys.

(10-09-2013 08:37 AM)Duke Dawg Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 07:52 AM)JMUDuke25 Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 07:41 AM)NYJMUPIKE Wrote:  As someone who has been to multiple bowl games: I would say the players, coaches, and fans definitely treat them as if they were playoff games. The hitting is clearly ramped up a notch or two from the regular season, and for those 3-4 hours that game matters a whole hell of a lot.

I wonder if all of the people on this board that claim bowls are meaningless have ever actually been to one?

I personally would be very excited to see JMU play in a bowl, whatever bowl that may be. I would do my best to travel every time we were selected, especially to a warm weather one.

You couldn't even finish your post without putting a stipulation on traveling. Not singling you out but this is how many fans feels about bowl games. Other good excuses are spending holiday time with the family instead of traveling for football or the cost to fly to some of these places. It ain't cheap to go to the Hawaii Bowl or even the New Mexico Bowl.

The bowl numbers speak for themselves. It's a money drain on the schools that participate and fans largely don't give a crap about the games. Sure we would the first or second time we made a bowl but we would become spoiled kids pretty quickly like other teams are.

to further this point, the trend in bowl games now is to NOT make long term commitments to any conference.

and the matchups are becoming more and more BCS vs BCS. The number of BCS leagues playing G5 leagues is getting smaller, and likely to continue to do so.

i have doubts about whether people will travel to the Bahamas during holiday season to see us play Western Michigan. Or to Shreveport, La two days before Xmas to see us play Arkansas State.

It's just NOT going to be the "bowl" experience you guys think of. It's not going to be in Orlando against Georgia Tech..or Arkansas....or Baylor....or even Oregon State. and it sure as hell isn't going to be against the real big boys.

I would have a good time going to Nashville to play Middle Tennessee State or Charlotte to play App State or New Orleans to play anyone.

Just because we likely won't be in a BCS bowl ever doesn't mean a bowl can't be exciting. I'm never gonna be in the NBA, but I still enjoy playing basketball.

In a way, I'm looking forward to using a bowl as a reason/excuse to get my family away for a few days during the holiday season. It would be nice to be in Nashville/Charlotte/New Orleans/wherever for a few days and not have to worry about running from one family member's house to another...

I'd love the New Orleans Bowl. My future in-laws live there, and it would give me an excuse to get away from them for a few hours.

(10-09-2013 06:12 AM)rufus Wrote:  

(10-08-2013 03:08 PM)NovaDukes Wrote:  I think the part about JMU winning a National Championship is the only thing you missed. A National Championship is a little more important to me that the BBVA Compass bowl. Not that I wouldn't go and support the team.

I would take it a step further to say that I care more about any FBS game than I do about an FCS national championship. A win over Akron would have meant more to me than the FCS championship, which means nearly nothing to me. So we were the tallest midget in 2004? Awesome. The fact is, JMU had no business playing FCS football then, and we certainly don't today. It is completely and totally meaningless to me. In fact, I only care about our FCS results at all, because I want to establish a reputation that makes us more appealing to FBS conferences. If we aren't going to move to FBS, I would like to see us drop football altogether.

I would rather see us attempt to compete at the appropriate level and lose than continue to cower and avoid competition.

Well you're clearly in the minority there. Substitute VT (or any BCS/Big 5 power for that matter) and most would agree with you, as most of the college football world would notice that as most of the college football world only follows BCS. Most of the college football world wouldn't have noticed JMU beating Akron, or any bad non BCS I-A team. I wouldn't even be surprised if the majority of the college football world thought Akron was I-AA. Ex- Monday's print edition in the back page college scores rundown had Middle Tenn State losing to ECU lumped in with the I-AA games.

Most of the college football world doesn't give 2 sh*ts about I-AA, and most of the college football world doesn't give 2 sh*ts about 2 non BCS teams playing each other. Only thing that garners any attention is when a BCS team is involved, which will go from the current at most once a yr to 2-3 times a yr.

(10-08-2013 01:16 PM)JMaddy Wrote:  JMU is more like Va Tech than any other school in the land (university location, alumni location, student base, etc). If there is one school trajectory we should care about it is them.

Phlegm, if you only want a school that offers academics with very minor athletics presence, then go teach at Mary Baldwin or Washington and Lee. Oh wait you don't care about that you just want the increased fees to fund your salary raise instead of a bigger Bridgeforth (benefits students, alumni and community) new Convo (benefits students, alumni and community) and move to FBS (benefits everyone). It only matters how in benefits you!

Or is it because you're scared that 'them damn foreigner teachers are taking over'? Is that still keeping you up at night, buddy?

You make a good point in your first paragraph. Your next two paragraphs are really insulting. Comments like this make me wonder why I give so much to the DC and why I spend any time trying to inform alums as to what is going on on the academic side.

Phlemish,

What is your main fear with JMU moving to FBS? The Carr report states that student fees would have to be increased to 81% by 2019 to maintain the current state of the athletic budget if JMU stays FCS and that conservative estimates indicate that student fee reliance would go down to less than 73% if JMU joined an FBS conference.

Is your biggest fear that JMU will totally crap the bed in FBS, lose all fan interest and then continue to divert funds away from academics just to support FBS? It seems like that is a very unlikely scenario. At this point staying put is falling behind.

Thank you for asking. Let me list the reasons why I am opposed to a move:

1. Whether the fees go from 81-72% doesn't really matter as I am fundamentally opposed to students footing $1500 a year when the primary beneficiaries (us) pay a fraction of that cost.
2. Students really don't have a say in the matter. If they decided that they would rather have "big boy' football rather than smaller class sizes, more course offerings, more qualified faculty, than so be it. But right now, they don't really have any input into how their fees are allocated.
3. I just don't see any demand from the students for the move. None of them came here based on the promise that we would move up. Less than 10% of my students go to the games when I ask them in class.
4. Could the money be spent better elsewhere? Surveys are showing that soccer is moving up in terms of interest and that football is more of a sport for "old timers" like us. Combine that with the impending concussion liability, the future of college football doesn't look bright.
5. I just don't see the bang for the buck (except for those on this bbs who love football and like to see us mentioned on ESPN). Having taught at elite football programs (and having helped recruit student-athletes at those schools), I KNOW that we won't achieve the status that many people believe we will. Do you really think that people respect ODU/UMass/Marshall/App State/Ga Southern/etc. because they have moved up a level in football? Is Boise State, probably the best case example, respected? In reality, many of the BCS institutions just provide an excuse for the existence of their athletic programs.
6. I am very uncomfortable with the fact that we allow student-athletes who would not have made it in on their academic records in because they play sports. Yes, we are providing "at risk" students an opportunity to go to college, but we are also rejecting a similar number who really wanted to come here for the academic experience.
7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.
8. Playoffs rule! Nobody really cares who wins a bowl game except for the top 5 games; in a playoff system, every game is meaningful.
9. Even moving up, we won't be able to compete like many believe we will. We have too many faculty who take pride in the quality of the classes they teach. I chuckle at coaches making statements like "they are visual learners" when their student-athletes score a 4 on the Wunderlich. That is code for "they can't read."
10. We may be able to outrecruit other FCS programs, but we will be at the bottom of the barrel in a tougher level of competition.

Lastly, and most importantly, I came to JMU because it is a special place with dedicated faculty, quality students, nice facilities, and a great location.. The last thing I want is to be like everyone else (especially ODU and Marshall).

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I do hope you try to understand my position.

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  Thank you for asking. Let me list the reasons why I am opposed to a move:

4. Could the money be spent better elsewhere? Surveys are showing that soccer is moving up in terms of interest and that football is more of a sport for "old timers" like us. Combine that with the impending concussion liability, the future of college football doesn't look bright.

Actually, studies really are not showing that. Football is stronger than ever, earns more revenue than ever, and is the pinnacle of U.S. sport. Soccer is growing fast, but is light years away from ever catching football, basketball, baseball. Perhaps it might pass hockey(heartbreaking) or NA$CAR one day, but not the top three. There are people who ignore the concussion issue as a big problem long term, but it definitely is. In a society where we seem to be more and more concerned about saving people from themselves regardless of individual decision or responsiblity, it is a reality football will have to deal with. In 7 years, there probably won't even be kickoffs. But, concussions are a whole other topic.

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  5. I just don't see the bang for the buck (except for those on this bbs who love football and like to see us mentioned on ESPN). Having taught at elite football programs (and having helped recruit student-athletes at those schools), I KNOW that we won't achieve the status that many people believe we will. Do you really think that people respect ODU/UMass/Marshall/App State/Ga Southern/etc. because they have moved up a level in football? Is Boise State, probably the best case example, respected? In reality, many of the BCS institutions just provide an excuse for the existence of their athletic programs.
6. I am very uncomfortable with the fact that we allow student-athletes who would not have made it in on their academic records in because they play sports. Yes, we are providing "at risk" students an opportunity to go to college, but we are also rejecting a similar number who really wanted to come here for the academic experience.

These are valid points. We are really just talking about another level of pro sports... except we won't pay them like pro's but we will earn from them like pros. If we want to really compete, we will have to let in the shady players. Even Notre Dame has struggled with this and there is every reason under the sun to go to ND other than football. Footnote: I still hate them. Footnote 2: Great fight song though.

All the rest of it is pure opinion points and don't have as much solid base around them as they are projection and/or opinion. I agree with some points too.. like playoffs. Others see it completely differently though, like Rufus. Rufus would probably prefer bowl games for basketball instead of March Madness based on his love of the format. I too think it is lunacy, but all of that is just an opinion thing.

This is all pointless though as I have seen numerous posts this week that don't believe anyone who opposes a move to FBS exists -- so you sir are clearly a ghost. I am personally resigned to it, hope that we move up, that the top tier explodes, and we get back to a good system of playoffs again one day. But everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.

Hate the Bowl system all that you want, but you're among the national minority I'm afraid. Only 2 bowl games had worse TV ratings than the best FCS rating of the season (the Ga Southern/ODU game).

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/f...=4&t=34126

(10-11-2013 02:46 PM)Potomac Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.

Hate the Bowl system all that you want, but you're among the national minority I'm afraid. Only 2 bowl games had worse TV ratings than the best FCS rating of the season (the Ga Southern/ODU game).

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/f...=4&t=34126

That is ridiculous. It is not the bowl system that does that. It is popular teams. If there were a playoff, the numbers would be even stronger. Comparing the two is crazy like that.

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  Thank you for asking. Let me list the reasons why I am opposed to a move:

1. Whether the fees go from 81-72% doesn't really matter as I am fundamentally opposed to students footing $1500 a year when the primary beneficiaries (us) pay a fraction of that cost.
2. Students really don't have a say in the matter. If they decided that they would rather have "big boy' football rather than smaller class sizes, more course offerings, more qualified faculty, than so be it. But right now, they don't really have any input into how their fees are allocated.
3. I just don't see any demand from the students for the move. None of them came here based on the promise that we would move up. Less than 10% of my students go to the games when I ask them in class.
4. Could the money be spent better elsewhere? Surveys are showing that soccer is moving up in terms of interest and that football is more of a sport for "old timers" like us. Combine that with the impending concussion liability, the future of college football doesn't look bright.
5. I just don't see the bang for the buck (except for those on this bbs who love football and like to see us mentioned on ESPN). Having taught at elite football programs (and having helped recruit student-athletes at those schools), I KNOW that we won't achieve the status that many people believe we will. Do you really think that people respect ODU/UMass/Marshall/App State/Ga Southern/etc. because they have moved up a level in football? Is Boise State, probably the best case example, respected? In reality, many of the BCS institutions just provide an excuse for the existence of their athletic programs.
6. I am very uncomfortable with the fact that we allow student-athletes who would not have made it in on their academic records in because they play sports. Yes, we are providing "at risk" students an opportunity to go to college, but we are also rejecting a similar number who really wanted to come here for the academic experience.
7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.
8. Playoffs rule! Nobody really cares who wins a bowl game except for the top 5 games; in a playoff system, every game is meaningful.
9. Even moving up, we won't be able to compete like many believe we will. We have too many faculty who take pride in the quality of the classes they teach. I chuckle at coaches making statements like "they are visual learners" when their student-athletes score a 4 on the Wunderlich. That is code for "they can't read."
10. We may be able to outrecruit other FCS programs, but we will be at the bottom of the barrel in a tougher level of competition.

Lastly, and most importantly, I came to JMU because it is a special place with dedicated faculty, quality students, nice facilities, and a great location.. The last thing I want is to be like everyone else (especially ODU and Marshall).

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I do hope you try to understand my position.

While I absolutely believe we can be FBS and still be a superlative academic institution, I respect your points Phlegmish. Your points on JMU students fitting the bill is true, but they already pay a huge sum at FCS level and know that going in. I also am interested in how the future of football plays out, as it's violence is sure to be an issue moving forward with links between the sport and major future medical problems.

I would like to know how much the faculty is burdened by our athletics. If it's a good argument that we could be obtaining and retaining the best quality faculty instead of upgrading all of our facilities and going FBS, then JMU needs to ask what they are all about. But if the answer is that JMU can do both like many FBS institutions, then why not.

I have no idea what the pulse of the students is in regards to moving up. I do know they are relatively apathetic with the competition we have now...but would MAC or CUSA teams really turn that around? I don't have the answer to that.

(10-11-2013 02:49 PM)mistrhanky Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:46 PM)Potomac Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.

Hate the Bowl system all that you want, but you're among the national minority I'm afraid. Only 2 bowl games had worse TV ratings than the best FCS rating of the season (the Ga Southern/ODU game).

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/f...=4&t=34126

That is ridiculous. It is not the bowl system that does that. It is popular teams. If there were a playoff, the numbers would be even stronger. Comparing the two is crazy like that.

It is more the FBS/FCS perception more than the bowls/playoffs, I'll give you that. I don't disagree there.
However, those are the numbers we have as of the end of 2012. Until we see otherwise, that is what it is. People don't watch the fcs playoffs, even when on ESPN. Thank God it is on espn or it would really not get covered.

(10-11-2013 02:49 PM)mistrhanky Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:46 PM)Potomac Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.

Hate the Bowl system all that you want, but you're among the national minority I'm afraid. Only 2 bowl games had worse TV ratings than the best FCS rating of the season (the Ga Southern/ODU game).

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/f...=4&t=34126

That is ridiculous. It is not the bowl system that does that. It is popular teams. If there were a playoff, the numbers would be even stronger. Comparing the two is crazy like that.

It should be telling though when the 65th and 70th best FBS teams square off in an exhibition game outdraws a very good FCS playoff matchup between two exciting offenses.

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  Thank you for asking. Let me list the reasons why I am opposed to a move:

1. Whether the fees go from 81-72% doesn't really matter as I am fundamentally opposed to students footing $1500 a year when the primary beneficiaries (us) pay a fraction of that cost.
2. Students really don't have a say in the matter. If they decided that they would rather have "big boy' football rather than smaller class sizes, more course offerings, more qualified faculty, than so be it. But right now, they don't really have any input into how their fees are allocated.
3. I just don't see any demand from the students for the move. None of them came here based on the promise that we would move up. Less than 10% of my students go to the games when I ask them in class.
4. Could the money be spent better elsewhere? Surveys are showing that soccer is moving up in terms of interest and that football is more of a sport for "old timers" like us. Combine that with the impending concussion liability, the future of college football doesn't look bright.
5. I just don't see the bang for the buck (except for those on this bbs who love football and like to see us mentioned on ESPN). Having taught at elite football programs (and having helped recruit student-athletes at those schools), I KNOW that we won't achieve the status that many people believe we will. Do you really think that people respect ODU/UMass/Marshall/App State/Ga Southern/etc. because they have moved up a level in football? Is Boise State, probably the best case example, respected? In reality, many of the BCS institutions just provide an excuse for the existence of their athletic programs.
6. I am very uncomfortable with the fact that we allow student-athletes who would not have made it in on their academic records in because they play sports. Yes, we are providing "at risk" students an opportunity to go to college, but we are also rejecting a similar number who really wanted to come here for the academic experience.
7. I really hate the bowl system and Beef O"Brady or Poulan Weedwacker Bowls that we aspire to play in.
8. Playoffs rule! Nobody really cares who wins a bowl game except for the top 5 games; in a playoff system, every game is meaningful.
9. Even moving up, we won't be able to compete like many believe we will. We have too many faculty who take pride in the quality of the classes they teach. I chuckle at coaches making statements like "they are visual learners" when their student-athletes score a 4 on the Wunderlich. That is code for "they can't read."
10. We may be able to outrecruit other FCS programs, but we will be at the bottom of the barrel in a tougher level of competition.

Lastly, and most importantly, I came to JMU because it is a special place with dedicated faculty, quality students, nice facilities, and a great location.. The last thing I want is to be like everyone else (especially ODU and Marshall).

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I do hope you try to understand my position.

1: Basically says you don't care about FCS or FBS. Actually says you would rather spend more student money as FCS than as a FBS.
2: No effect on FCS or FBS. Students don't have a "say" in any of those things.
3: 6-7k students go to games which means 33%ish of university. Sounds like you don't know math or have lame students.
4: Soccer is more growing in popularity for youth kids to play, please tell me the impact at JMU soccer games. I guess you haven't seen University Park?????
5: Lots of FBS schools are great academic schools as well. I question why you call out decent academic schools that moved up as JMU is rated higher than all those schools you mentioned.
6: Not an FCS or FBS argument unless you are questioning those 20 additional football players that will receive scholarships. If you are then 20 students out of 4,200 getting in with questionable academic records is a non-issue.
7: Beef o Brady > Quarterfinals of FCS
8: FINALLY A DECENT ARGUMENT!!!! However FBS has a 4 team playoff next year and I think it is more likely they will go to a 16 team playoff way before the stop playing football (see #4 concussion argument)
9: Teachers still teach at FBS schools. I think at least, I didn't go to one.
10: FBS JMU gets better recruits than FCS JMU. Former player told me he would chose JMU over Sunbelt & MAC schools because of the school.

(10-11-2013 02:43 PM)mistrhanky Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 02:16 PM)Phlegmish Wrote:  Thank you for asking. Let me list the reasons why I am opposed to a move:

4. Could the money be spent better elsewhere? Surveys are showing that soccer is moving up in terms of interest and that football is more of a sport for "old timers" like us. Combine that with the impending concussion liability, the future of college football doesn't look bright.

Actually, studies really are not showing that. Football is stronger than ever, earns more revenue than ever, and is the pinnacle of U.S. sport. Soccer is growing fast, but is light years away from ever catching football, basketball, baseball. Perhaps it might pass hockey(heartbreaking) or NA$CAR one day, but not the top three. There are people who ignore the concussion issue as a big problem long term, but it definitely is. In a society where we seem to be more and more concerned about saving people from themselves regardless of individual decision or responsiblity, it is a reality football will have to deal with. In 7 years, there probably won't even be kickoffs. But, concussions are a whole other topic.

...

You're talking about two different things, I suppose. Soccer has certainly surpassed football as far as participation by kids and adults - by a mile. But Football is far more popular as a spectator sport (in the U.S) - by a mile. There's no doubt where the money is. Even if JMU had a top ranked soccer team, fan interest would only be a fraction of what it is for football.

And Phlegmish, although I also have a problem with some of the issues you raise, such as admitting marginally qualified students, shifting emphasis and resources from football to soccer won't eliminate many of those problems but merely shift them to a different sport.