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Millions Flee Obamacare
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(10-03-2013 01:15 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  AAF: 30-year-old men face average premium hikes of 260%
A new study from the American Action Forum that looks at healthy 30-year-old men finds that underlying premiums for those individuals will increase by an average of 260 percent. The AAF study compared the least-expensive plans available today to the cheapest plans on the Obamacare exchanges, as did the Manhattan Institute study. The MI analysis, by contrast, adjusted those pre-ACA rates to take into account sicker individuals.

In a sense, the AAF study is more relevant to the problem at hand. Obamacare makes healthy people pay more for insurance in order to subsidize sicker people. It makes younger people pay more to subsidize older people. It makes men pay more to subsidize women. It makes everyone pay more to cover benefits, taxes, and fees that consumers might not ordinarily want.

Politically, this is absolutely predictable, because it has been clear for some time that virtually none of the public genuinely wants health INSURANCE, in the sense of actuarially-based risk-shifting. Rather, what the public claims to want -- especially (but not exclusively) people who expect to consume a lot of health care -- is health care that "someone else" pays for. Who that "someone else" is is unclear.
08-27-2016 11:22 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 11:22 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Who that "someone else" is is unclear.

And unimportant to the person who wants it, as long as it isn't him.
08-27-2016 01:16 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 01:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 11:22 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Who that "someone else" is is unclear.

And unimportant to the person who wants it, as long as it isn't him.

I think most people are fine with paying for healthcare - especially elective healthcare. What they generally don't want is to potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control. They want prices for healthcare that don't threaten to ruin them financially and would generally be willing to pay prices that wouldn't be overly burdensome.

Is it hard to believe that it isn't about getting something free but about wanting a system that prevents one illness from depleting one's savings?
08-27-2016 02:16 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 02:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 01:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 11:22 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Who that "someone else" is is unclear.

And unimportant to the person who wants it, as long as it isn't him.

I think most people are fine with paying for healthcare - especially elective healthcare.

I disagree. I think there are far more people who think their own health care should be essentially "free" (i.e. paid for by someone else) than there are people who think they themselves should be primarily responsible for it.
08-27-2016 04:37 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 02:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 01:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 11:22 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Who that "someone else" is is unclear.

And unimportant to the person who wants it, as long as it isn't him.

I think most people are fine with paying for healthcare - especially elective healthcare. What they generally don't want is to potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control. They want prices for healthcare that don't threaten to ruin them financially and would generally be willing to pay prices that wouldn't be overly burdensome.

Is it hard to believe that it isn't about getting something free but about wanting a system that prevents one illness from depleting one's savings?

When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.
08-27-2016 05:06 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.

I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.

It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."

My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2016 10:17 PM by georgewebb.)
08-27-2016 05:36 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.

I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.

It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."

My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.

$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.

I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.
08-28-2016 12:16 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #28
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.
I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.
It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."
My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.

I think you misread the post.
08-28-2016 09:09 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.
I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.
It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."
My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.

I think you misread the post.

Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.
08-28-2016 12:08 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #30
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 12:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.
I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.
It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."
My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.
I think you misread the post.
Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.

I'm pretty sure the $625/month was the amount of money he was making. When OO was a young man, $625/month was a pretty good income. I started out making half that, and lived quite well on it, quite possibly the best years of my life.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2016 02:02 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-28-2016 02:02 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 12:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:06 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I was a young man, we had something called "Major Medical" coverage that we could get to cover those catastrophic events. yeah, it cost something. Not a lot. I had it while working for $625/month. It had a deductible, too, but it was an effective stop loss.
I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.
It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."
My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.

I think you misread the post.

Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.

LOL - you are young. nothing personal. I laughed out loud when I read your first response to Optimistic. See Owl Numbers response.
08-28-2016 04:44 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 04:44 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-27-2016 05:36 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  I had that type of plan when I was a grad student. I thought it was terrific.
It is exactly the kind of plan that makes sense for people who, in RiceLad's formulation, are genuinely "fine with paying for health care" but don't want to "potentially go bankrupt due to health circumstances that are completely out of their control."
My understanding is that it is now illegal. Yet this is considered progress.
$625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.

I think you misread the post.

Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.

LOL - you are young. nothing personal. I laughed out loud when I read your first response to Optimistic. See Owl Numbers response.

Yep, my age (or lack there of) is showing. Reading that sentence I didn't think to consider that $625 per month was a salary and not a health insurance cost.
08-28-2016 05:22 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-28-2016 05:22 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 04:44 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  $625 is not an affordable option. As a working engineer I could not easily afford to spend $625 per month for catastrophic insurance. Not sure how that was affordable for a graduate school student.
I'm lucky because my company covers my health insurance. But I am no fan or being tied to an employer for healthcare coverage.

I think you misread the post.

Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.

LOL - you are young. nothing personal. I laughed out loud when I read your first response to Optimistic. See Owl Numbers response.

Yep, my age (or lack there of) is showing. Reading that sentence I didn't think to consider that $625 per month was a salary and not a health insurance cost.

I said "when I was a young man." I am 71 now. Guess I forgot that not everybody knows I am an old coot. That job was in 1969. My wife worked at a savings and loan - $300. Quite the middle class couple. Bought a house on that. Got tougher after the twins were born.

Back to the point of avoiding bankruptcy through health costs - the major medical did that back then. I don't remember the level that expenses had to reach before it kicked in - maybe 500, maybe 750, maybe 1000. So about a month 'to two months salary. A big chunk, but usually not bankruptcy size.
08-29-2016 12:31 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-27-2016 11:22 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 01:15 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  AAF: 30-year-old men face average premium hikes of 260%
A new study from the American Action Forum that looks at healthy 30-year-old men finds that underlying premiums for those individuals will increase by an average of 260 percent. The AAF study compared the least-expensive plans available today to the cheapest plans on the Obamacare exchanges, as did the Manhattan Institute study. The MI analysis, by contrast, adjusted those pre-ACA rates to take into account sicker individuals.

In a sense, the AAF study is more relevant to the problem at hand. Obamacare makes healthy people pay more for insurance in order to subsidize sicker people. It makes younger people pay more to subsidize older people. It makes men pay more to subsidize women. It makes everyone pay more to cover benefits, taxes, and fees that consumers might not ordinarily want.

Politically, this is absolutely predictable, because it has been clear for some time that virtually none of the public genuinely wants health INSURANCE, in the sense of actuarially-based risk-shifting. Rather, what the public claims to want -- especially (but not exclusively) people who expect to consume a lot of health care -- is health care that "someone else" pays for. Who that "someone else" is is unclear.

I have to agree with you that is the fundamental problem. The first thing people need to admit and get over is that medical care is a service, not a right, and it has and deserves a market-based cost. Money needs to figure into the medical decision tree, but by the consumer of the service, not some arbitrary law or goverment mandated formula.

Most everyone is looking for someone else or some other entity to pay this for them. Many people use their employers to try to do this, however, most of those are increasingly finding their employers are having to shift more of the costs back onto the employees. All those touted "benefits" to compensate for lower salaries, are not worth what people thought they were.

I sometimes feel alone in only wanting Insurance as you described. I don't want to and am unwilling to pay for all the other $#!t lumped into all these "plans" that have almost nothing to do with what I as a consumer want. Since health insurance is no longer available in this country anywhere from any source, i do not participate in the charade. If Insurance becomes available when there is a shift in leadership, i will evaluate the cost-benefit and choose whether or not to purchase it at that time.

What we have now is just a rip-off and a lie. It is worse than what we had before. While I agree that the previous system needed work, mostly it was due to the infusion of government controls and price-fixing into the system for 40 years when medicare was created that began the problems. Removing both the government and the employers from the equation, and allowing people to purchase only what they need is most of the answer.
Health care is a service, just like getting your oil changed or getting your car fixed. It is a service that deserves a free-market solution that is consumer-based and across state lines. I know Insurance commissioners in the 50 states fear losing power, too bad.

All I want is to buy myself cheeseburger, with my own money, with no mustard and extra pickle. If you force me to buy a gluten-free hummus-mushroom burger because that is the only thing you allow on your menu, I will just not be eating at your establishment. Imagine having to purchase this same type of "insurance" for food, and you see how ridiculous this whole ACA is. That is what is going on in a nutshell. As more people slowly realize this (wait till this year's rates hikes go in effect) there will grow more push-back against this stupidest of government overreaches.
08-29-2016 01:34 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 12:31 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 05:22 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 04:44 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 12:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-28-2016 09:09 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think you misread the post.

Was the $625 referring to the amount being made by working? Or the amount being paid for the insurance? I was assuming the latter with the way it was written, and that the cost for the same plan would be similar for a grad student.

LOL - you are young. nothing personal. I laughed out loud when I read your first response to Optimistic. See Owl Numbers response.

Yep, my age (or lack there of) is showing. Reading that sentence I didn't think to consider that $625 per month was a salary and not a health insurance cost.

I said "when I was a young man." I am 71 now. Guess I forgot that not everybody knows I am an old coot. That job was in 1969. My wife worked at a savings and loan - $300. Quite the middle class couple. Bought a house on that. Got tougher after the twins were born.

Back to the point of avoiding bankruptcy through health costs - the major medical did that back then. I don't remember the level that expenses had to reach before it kicked in - maybe 500, maybe 750, maybe 1000. So about a month 'to two months salary. A big chunk, but usually not bankruptcy size.

I knew you said when you were a young man, but the sentence construction was a bit confusing. You said you "had [health insurance] while working for $625/month" so I assumed you were saying that you were paying $625 per month for health insurance, not that you had [health insurance] while working for a salary of $625 per month. Just a slight misunderstanding due to sentence construction and my experience with the costs of healthcare.

Regardless, I'm assuming someone has done this, but it would be interesting to see how the average cost of healthcare has increased and compare that to average income. I assume it would follow a similar trend to housing, which is that the growth of costs increaaed faster than income. It would also be interesting to know the average major medical costs too, as a percentage of income. I know the stat is that a majority of bancruptcies in America are caused by medical expenses, and I wonder if that has always been the case.
08-29-2016 06:45 AM
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OldOwlNewHeel2 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 01:34 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Removing both the government and the employers from the equation, and allowing people to purchase only what they need is most of the answer.

I can't even get this from my cable company.
08-29-2016 09:11 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 09:11 AM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  
(08-29-2016 01:34 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Removing both the government and the employers from the equation, and allowing people to purchase only what they need is most of the answer.

I can't even get this from my cable company.

And yet, another of this Administration's proud "achievements" has been to bring internet service under the same regulatory regime as cable television.
08-29-2016 10:10 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #38
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 06:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I knew you said when you were a young man, but the sentence construction was a bit confusing. You said you "had [health insurance] while working for $625/month" so I assumed you were saying that you were paying $625 per month for health insurance, not that you had [health insurance] while working for a salary of $625 per month. Just a slight misunderstanding due to sentence construction and my experience with the costs of healthcare.

We need to go back to teaching HS English students how to diagram sentences.
08-29-2016 10:10 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 10:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-29-2016 06:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I knew you said when you were a young man, but the sentence construction was a bit confusing. You said you "had [health insurance] while working for $625/month" so I assumed you were saying that you were paying $625 per month for health insurance, not that you had [health insurance] while working for a salary of $625 per month. Just a slight misunderstanding due to sentence construction and my experience with the costs of healthcare.

We need to go back to teaching HS English students how to diagram sentences.

Honestly, it's less high school and more undergraduate education that could use a stronger English focus. My engineering courses in undergrad and grad school rarely focused on how well something was written, and they focused more on the content. But general misunderstandings of the English language is why I generally try to avoid ambiguities (e.g. using pronouns) in all of the technical writing I do for work. Helps those readers that are less grammatically inclined follow along.
08-29-2016 10:35 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(08-29-2016 10:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-29-2016 06:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I knew you said when you were a young man, but the sentence construction was a bit confusing. You said you "had [health insurance] while working for $625/month" so I assumed you were saying that you were paying $625 per month for health insurance, not that you had [health insurance] while working for a salary of $625 per month. Just a slight misunderstanding due to sentence construction and my experience with the costs of healthcare.

We need to go back to teaching HS English students how to diagram sentences.
The ambiguity would still be there: the diagrammer would have to discern whether "while working" and "for $625/month" are parallel diagonals depending from the same predicate, or "for 625/month" depends from "while working". So the answer would still come from knowledge outside the sentence. In many cases, that's OK -- even if two interpretations are grammatically plausible, only one may be factually plausible. But in this case, it just happened that RiceLad and Optimistic were drawing from two very different knowledge bases, in each of which one interpretation but not the other was factually plausible.

But yes: diagramming is probably the most powerful way to impart a thorough understanding of sentence structure, and a thorough understanding of sentence structure is absolutely something that a high school graduate should have.
08-29-2016 11:16 AM
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