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Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-17-2013 05:44 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 10:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 09:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  FWIW Denver isnt Catholic although i would still include them
Id suggest instead of Loyola maybe Portland or if Bradley is included maybe Drake or even Detroit. 04-cheers

For my bad teams I was mostly looking at the potential to improve. My main criteria were:

1. Endowment: An endowment is a good measure of a school's ability to fund their programs
2. Nearby metro areas: Chicago and Denver are big enough that they offer some recruiting advantage
3. History: Shows that teams have been there before and have the potential to build a quality program

That is why Loyola-Chicago was included in my potential schools. They meet all three criteria, whereas other schools meet 2 or less. Denver doesn't have the history, Bradley isn't in a major metro area.

While I considered Drake and Detroit, they each had problems in those regards. Detroit has an endowment of only $26 million, which indicates that they may not have the ability to get much better. Drake has a slightly larger endowment ($149M) and they have some history (a Final Four), but Bradley's endowment and history were better (Des Moines is slightly better than Peoria but not enough). Portland is a nice fit, a quality metro area, and a decent endowment; the problem is that the basketball program has never been great and the endowment isn't big enough to convince me that they can much better.

(11-14-2013 09:47 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  BYU is an obvious choice.

Their basketball program IS an obvious choice. But what comes with it makes it a little harder to justify. This conference has tried to avoid instability and football is the biggest cause of conference instability.

Money is the root of all evil - including conference instability. It's not football per se. To the degree that football factored into the instability of the old Big
East, it became a problem only when football was allowed to grow to 8 members. When there were only a couple, it wasn't an issue.

BYU is much like Notre Dame, making a commitment to football independence. They are currently in the West Coast Conference, a group dominated by small Catholic schools and things are working fine. Ring a bell? Do you think if there were a chance to get Notre Dame, the conference wouldn't jump at it and seize the opportunity?

I think Notre Dame is legitimately committed to independence. BYU, on the other hand, would still much prefer to be in a power conference (most likely the Big 12 as a viable option since the Pac-12 won't invite them for political reasons). It's just that independence is better for BYU than being in a Group of Five conference, so they're making the best of their situation now.

It wasn't the number of football schools that the Big East had that was the problem - it was the fact that those schools were prime targets for poaching by others, which caused instability. The Big East, now that it has finally achieved stability, doesn't want to add anyone that would (a) ultimately rather be elsewhere and (b) actually has a decent shot of getting that invite elsewhere. That makes BYU and UConn, despite being great all-sports additions to the Big East on paper, untenable, as they immediately place the Big East back into the instability that the Catholic 7 wanted to get away from in the first place. The Big East doesn't want anything to do with the headaches of rumors about BYU going to the Big 12 or UConn going to the ACC or Big Ten - if they wanted to do that, they might as well have just not split at all and kept playing UConn and other solid basketball schools like Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, etc.

That's why institutional fit matters so much to university presidents, especially in the case of the Big East. They just went through a messy divorce and don't want any chance of inviting back in the same problems that led to that divorce. Long-term stability is extremely valuable in conference realignment that, in many ways, outweighs short-term revenue or competitive gains. The Big East has almost ironclad stability in its lane: it has its pick of any non-FBS school that it wants (which is arguably more than what even the Big Ten or SEC can say in their FBS lane). In the non-FBS world, there is no conference that is more desirable than the Big East financially and branding-wise. However, FBS schools inherently aren't going to see the Big East as a true destination conference in the way that they see the power conferences, so that instability simply isn't worth it no matter how much those programs might bring to the table on the basketball court.
11-20-2013 10:57 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-20-2013 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(11-17-2013 05:44 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 10:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 09:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  FWIW Denver isnt Catholic although i would still include them
Id suggest instead of Loyola maybe Portland or if Bradley is included maybe Drake or even Detroit. 04-cheers

For my bad teams I was mostly looking at the potential to improve. My main criteria were:

1. Endowment: An endowment is a good measure of a school's ability to fund their programs
2. Nearby metro areas: Chicago and Denver are big enough that they offer some recruiting advantage
3. History: Shows that teams have been there before and have the potential to build a quality program

That is why Loyola-Chicago was included in my potential schools. They meet all three criteria, whereas other schools meet 2 or less. Denver doesn't have the history, Bradley isn't in a major metro area.

While I considered Drake and Detroit, they each had problems in those regards. Detroit has an endowment of only $26 million, which indicates that they may not have the ability to get much better. Drake has a slightly larger endowment ($149M) and they have some history (a Final Four), but Bradley's endowment and history were better (Des Moines is slightly better than Peoria but not enough). Portland is a nice fit, a quality metro area, and a decent endowment; the problem is that the basketball program has never been great and the endowment isn't big enough to convince me that they can much better.

(11-14-2013 09:47 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  BYU is an obvious choice.

Their basketball program IS an obvious choice. But what comes with it makes it a little harder to justify. This conference has tried to avoid instability and football is the biggest cause of conference instability.

Money is the root of all evil - including conference instability. It's not football per se. To the degree that football factored into the instability of the old Big
East, it became a problem only when football was allowed to grow to 8 members. When there were only a couple, it wasn't an issue.

BYU is much like Notre Dame, making a commitment to football independence. They are currently in the West Coast Conference, a group dominated by small Catholic schools and things are working fine. Ring a bell? Do you think if there were a chance to get Notre Dame, the conference wouldn't jump at it and seize the opportunity?

I think Notre Dame is legitimately committed to independence. BYU, on the other hand, would still much prefer to be in a power conference (most likely the Big 12 as a viable option since the Pac-12 won't invite them for political reasons). It's just that independence is better for BYU than being in a Group of Five conference, so they're making the best of their situation now.

It wasn't the number of football schools that the Big East had that was the problem - it was the fact that those schools were prime targets for poaching by others, which caused instability. The Big East, now that it has finally achieved stability, doesn't want to add anyone that would (a) ultimately rather be elsewhere and (b) actually has a decent shot of getting that invite elsewhere. That makes BYU and UConn, despite being great all-sports additions to the Big East on paper, untenable, as they immediately place the Big East back into the instability that the Catholic 7 wanted to get away from in the first place. The Big East doesn't want anything to do with the headaches of rumors about BYU going to the Big 12 or UConn going to the ACC or Big Ten - if they wanted to do that, they might as well have just not split at all and kept playing UConn and other solid basketball schools like Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, etc.

That's why institutional fit matters so much to university presidents, especially in the case of the Big East. They just went through a messy divorce and don't want any chance of inviting back in the same problems that led to that divorce. Long-term stability is extremely valuable in conference realignment that, in many ways, outweighs short-term revenue or competitive gains. The Big East has almost ironclad stability in its lane: it has its pick of any non-FBS school that it wants (which is arguably more than what even the Big Ten or SEC can say in their FBS lane). In the non-FBS world, there is no conference that is more desirable than the Big East financially and branding-wise. However, FBS schools inherently aren't going to see the Big East as a true destination conference in the way that they see the power conferences, so that instability simply isn't worth it no matter how much those programs might bring to the table on the basketball court.

So Frank, say the Big East expands to 12 in the next few years. Who do you think they take? Oh and by next few years i mean 1-4 years. I don't see them staying at 10 past that.
11-20-2013 12:13 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-20-2013 12:13 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(11-20-2013 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(11-17-2013 05:44 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 10:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  
(11-14-2013 09:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  FWIW Denver isnt Catholic although i would still include them
Id suggest instead of Loyola maybe Portland or if Bradley is included maybe Drake or even Detroit. 04-cheers

For my bad teams I was mostly looking at the potential to improve. My main criteria were:

1. Endowment: An endowment is a good measure of a school's ability to fund their programs
2. Nearby metro areas: Chicago and Denver are big enough that they offer some recruiting advantage
3. History: Shows that teams have been there before and have the potential to build a quality program

That is why Loyola-Chicago was included in my potential schools. They meet all three criteria, whereas other schools meet 2 or less. Denver doesn't have the history, Bradley isn't in a major metro area.

While I considered Drake and Detroit, they each had problems in those regards. Detroit has an endowment of only $26 million, which indicates that they may not have the ability to get much better. Drake has a slightly larger endowment ($149M) and they have some history (a Final Four), but Bradley's endowment and history were better (Des Moines is slightly better than Peoria but not enough). Portland is a nice fit, a quality metro area, and a decent endowment; the problem is that the basketball program has never been great and the endowment isn't big enough to convince me that they can much better.

(11-14-2013 09:47 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  BYU is an obvious choice.

Their basketball program IS an obvious choice. But what comes with it makes it a little harder to justify. This conference has tried to avoid instability and football is the biggest cause of conference instability.

Money is the root of all evil - including conference instability. It's not football per se. To the degree that football factored into the instability of the old Big
East, it became a problem only when football was allowed to grow to 8 members. When there were only a couple, it wasn't an issue.

BYU is much like Notre Dame, making a commitment to football independence. They are currently in the West Coast Conference, a group dominated by small Catholic schools and things are working fine. Ring a bell? Do you think if there were a chance to get Notre Dame, the conference wouldn't jump at it and seize the opportunity?

I think Notre Dame is legitimately committed to independence. BYU, on the other hand, would still much prefer to be in a power conference (most likely the Big 12 as a viable option since the Pac-12 won't invite them for political reasons). It's just that independence is better for BYU than being in a Group of Five conference, so they're making the best of their situation now.

It wasn't the number of football schools that the Big East had that was the problem - it was the fact that those schools were prime targets for poaching by others, which caused instability. The Big East, now that it has finally achieved stability, doesn't want to add anyone that would (a) ultimately rather be elsewhere and (b) actually has a decent shot of getting that invite elsewhere. That makes BYU and UConn, despite being great all-sports additions to the Big East on paper, untenable, as they immediately place the Big East back into the instability that the Catholic 7 wanted to get away from in the first place. The Big East doesn't want anything to do with the headaches of rumors about BYU going to the Big 12 or UConn going to the ACC or Big Ten - if they wanted to do that, they might as well have just not split at all and kept playing UConn and other solid basketball schools like Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, etc.

That's why institutional fit matters so much to university presidents, especially in the case of the Big East. They just went through a messy divorce and don't want any chance of inviting back in the same problems that led to that divorce. Long-term stability is extremely valuable in conference realignment that, in many ways, outweighs short-term revenue or competitive gains. The Big East has almost ironclad stability in its lane: it has its pick of any non-FBS school that it wants (which is arguably more than what even the Big Ten or SEC can say in their FBS lane). In the non-FBS world, there is no conference that is more desirable than the Big East financially and branding-wise. However, FBS schools inherently aren't going to see the Big East as a true destination conference in the way that they see the power conferences, so that instability simply isn't worth it no matter how much those programs might bring to the table on the basketball court.

So Frank, say the Big East expands to 12 in the next few years. Who do you think they take? Oh and by next few years i mean 1-4 years. I don't see them staying at 10 past that.

That's the dilemma since it's really SLU and a school to be determined later. The other candidates have at least one glaring flaw: Dayton has a TV market and recruiting area largely covered by Xavier, Richmond has a small fan base, and VCU is a public school. Another school to watch is Davidson since they're in the Charlotte TV market with some NCAA Tournament success, although they have the same small fan base problem as Richmond. It's hard for me to see anyone beyond those 4 for consideration, so one of those schools is going to need to have some eye-popping stats over the next few years.

The margin of error is lowest for Dayton (meaning the Big East will consider them if they're merely decent on-the-court), whereas the margin of error is highest for VCU (meaning that they need essentially to be a legit monster on-the-court where they can't be passed over anymore). Richmond and Davidson are in-between - they won't get the benefit of the doubt like Dayton will, but they'll get more benefit of the doubt compared to VCU since they're Eastern private schools.
11-20-2013 03:37 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
I guess the question for expansion for me would be when does VCU get to the point where we can't ignore them any longer? Is it another final 4? I mean, imagine the heat we'd get if we added VCU after a final 4 this year- especially if we get 5-6 teams in the tourney this year.

I really don't see Davidson as a factor. Partly because they're going from a league much lower than where the CAA was up to the A10. Last year the Southern was #28 out of 31 conferences. Davidson went 26-8 and got a 14 seed out of it. I think they are going to struggle at first playing tough teams every time out. They went 2-4 last year vs teams in the Ken Pom top 100. I think it's between Dayton, Richmond, and VCU- and of those 3, more Dayton vs VCU. I think Richmond has to get relevent competetively- maybe not on the VCU level, but at least to where they were even 3-4 years ago makign tourney regularly and making a bit of noise.
11-20-2013 04:09 PM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
I really think that Richmond is a non-starter. They got a lot of attention because of the Georgetown president's very public support for their candidacy.

However, any objective analysis of what they bring quickly shows way to many negatives. I'm sure that Fox has people on staff who will be quick to point out those negatives. Bringing in Richmond would be like bringing in Holy Cross except without HC's great history and tradition. The league badly wanted Holy Cross 35 years ago when times were different, but could anyone seriously imagine Holy Cross as a candidate today?

Assuming that St Louis is #11, I really think that it comes down to VCU and Dayton. While VCU has being a public school as a negative, it's geography is a very big plus. Their location saves money for East Coast teams on travel, which is a big deal for some of the Big East schools that operate with smaller budgets.

Their location plus their size is a big advantage for VCU's ability to deliver fans to the Big East tournament, which is a very high priority for this league. In the glow of the birth of this new confederation, Big East tournament tickets have been a hot commodity, but anyone who looks even a little farther down the road knows that there is no guarantee that this will continue. The ACC and the Big Ten have both shown interest in locating their tournaments in NYC. The Big East really doesn't want to create an opening for this interest to gain any traction. In this case, location matters.

For all of its great fit and top market, an expansion spot is St Louis's to lose. They have the inside track, but that doesn't mean they're automatic IMO. The move from CUSA to the A10 was not good for St Louis. Despite his success in reenergizing the Billikens' basketball program, it didn't result in improved attendance. Even this past season their were concerns in the local paper pointing to their problems in attendance. They drew 7,600 last year, which is not bad in some quarters of the Big East. But it's not good in comparison with Dayton, which drew 12,400 last year.

St Louis has drawn between 6,000 - 8,000 for the past 5 years and consistently fails to sell out its arena (capacity: 10,600). Prior to the past 5 years, their attendance was 8,000 - 10,000. Better but still not where it was in their CUSA hay day when their range was 11,000 - 18,000 between 1995 - 2002 with a highway after mark of 17,700 in 1998.

There are two ways to look at the decline in St Louis' attendance. First is simply that the program is not once was and that a steady decrease to 15 years shows that. The second is that the move to the A10 cut them off from their natural geographic rivals and that their CUSA attendance shows their true potential and a dormant fan base just waiting to be deactivated by renewed rivalries with Marquette, DePaul, etc.

The problem that St Louis suffers in comparison with Dayton is that the Flyers have shown none of the same declines in attendance. Dayton is also 330 miles closer to MSG, giving their larger fan base a smaller hurdle to surmount in delivering fannies in the seats at tournament time.

I'm assuming that St Louis is #11. But I'm also assuming that the number crunchers at Fox and the Big East will do the same analysis that I have, raising some concerns about St Louis. Should they falter, they may not be as automatic as we think they are.
11-22-2013 10:20 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-22-2013 10:20 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  I really think that Richmond is a non-starter. They got a lot of attention because of the Georgetown president's very public support for their candidacy.

However, any objective analysis of what they bring quickly shows way to many negatives. I'm sure that Fox has people on staff who will be quick to point out those negatives. Bringing in Richmond would be like bringing in Holy Cross except without HC's great history and tradition. The league badly wanted Holy Cross 35 years ago when times were different, but could anyone seriously imagine Holy Cross as a candidate today?

Assuming that St Louis is #11, I really think that it comes down to VCU and Dayton. While VCU has being a public school as a negative, it's geography is a very big plus. Their location saves money for East Coast teams on travel, which is a big deal for some of the Big East schools that operate with smaller budgets.

Their location plus their size is a big advantage for VCU's ability to deliver fans to the Big East tournament, which is a very high priority for this league. In the glow of the birth of this new confederation, Big East tournament tickets have been a hot commodity, but anyone who looks even a little farther down the road knows that there is no guarantee that this will continue. The ACC and the Big Ten have both shown interest in locating their tournaments in NYC. The Big East really doesn't want to create an opening for this interest to gain any traction. In this case, location matters.

For all of its great fit and top market, an expansion spot is St Louis's to lose. They have the inside track, but that doesn't mean they're automatic IMO. The move from CUSA to the A10 was not good for St Louis. Despite his success in reenergizing the Billikens' basketball program, it didn't result in improved attendance. Even this past season their were concerns in the local paper pointing to their problems in attendance. They drew 7,600 last year, which is not bad in some quarters of the Big East. But it's not good in comparison with Dayton, which drew 12,400 last year.

St Louis has drawn between 6,000 - 8,000 for the past 5 years and consistently fails to sell out its arena (capacity: 10,600). Prior to the past 5 years, their attendance was 8,000 - 10,000. Better but still not where it was in their CUSA hay day when their range was 11,000 - 18,000 between 1995 - 2002 with a highway after mark of 17,700 in 1998.

There are two ways to look at the decline in St Louis' attendance. First is simply that the program is not once was and that a steady decrease to 15 years shows that. The second is that the move to the A10 cut them off from their natural geographic rivals and that their CUSA attendance shows their true potential and a dormant fan base just waiting to be deactivated by renewed rivalries with Marquette, DePaul, etc.

The problem that St Louis suffers in comparison with Dayton is that the Flyers have shown none of the same declines in attendance. Dayton is also 330 miles closer to MSG, giving their larger fan base a smaller hurdle to surmount in delivering fannies in the seats at tournament time.

I'm assuming that St Louis is #11. But I'm also assuming that the number crunchers at Fox and the Big East will do the same analysis that I have, raising some concerns about St Louis. Should they falter, they may not be as automatic as we think they are.

I disagree with your assessment that its easier to get to nyc from dayton compared to st. louis. SL is a major air travel hub. I would wager it's much easier and cheaper to fly from SL to NYC than Dayton to NYC.
11-22-2013 12:08 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-22-2013 10:20 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  I really think that Richmond is a non-starter. They got a lot of attention because of the Georgetown president's very public support for their candidacy.

However, any objective analysis of what they bring quickly shows way to many negatives. I'm sure that Fox has people on staff who will be quick to point out those negatives. Bringing in Richmond would be like bringing in Holy Cross except without HC's great history and tradition. The league badly wanted Holy Cross 35 years ago when times were different, but could anyone seriously imagine Holy Cross as a candidate today?

Assuming that St Louis is #11, I really think that it comes down to VCU and Dayton. While VCU has being a public school as a negative, it's geography is a very big plus. Their location saves money for East Coast teams on travel, which is a big deal for some of the Big East schools that operate with smaller budgets.

Their location plus their size is a big advantage for VCU's ability to deliver fans to the Big East tournament, which is a very high priority for this league. In the glow of the birth of this new confederation, Big East tournament tickets have been a hot commodity, but anyone who looks even a little farther down the road knows that there is no guarantee that this will continue. The ACC and the Big Ten have both shown interest in locating their tournaments in NYC. The Big East really doesn't want to create an opening for this interest to gain any traction. In this case, location matters.

For all of its great fit and top market, an expansion spot is St Louis's to lose. They have the inside track, but that doesn't mean they're automatic IMO. The move from CUSA to the A10 was not good for St Louis. Despite his success in reenergizing the Billikens' basketball program, it didn't result in improved attendance. Even this past season their were concerns in the local paper pointing to their problems in attendance. They drew 7,600 last year, which is not bad in some quarters of the Big East. But it's not good in comparison with Dayton, which drew 12,400 last year.

St Louis has drawn between 6,000 - 8,000 for the past 5 years and consistently fails to sell out its arena (capacity: 10,600). Prior to the past 5 years, their attendance was 8,000 - 10,000. Better but still not where it was in their CUSA hay day when their range was 11,000 - 18,000 between 1995 - 2002 with a highway after mark of 17,700 in 1998.

There are two ways to look at the decline in St Louis' attendance. First is simply that the program is not once was and that a steady decrease to 15 years shows that. The second is that the move to the A10 cut them off from their natural geographic rivals and that their CUSA attendance shows their true potential and a dormant fan base just waiting to be deactivated by renewed rivalries with Marquette, DePaul, etc.

The problem that St Louis suffers in comparison with Dayton is that the Flyers have shown none of the same declines in attendance. Dayton is also 330 miles closer to MSG, giving their larger fan base a smaller hurdle to surmount in delivering fannies in the seats at tournament time.

I'm assuming that St Louis is #11. But I'm also assuming that the number crunchers at Fox and the Big East will do the same analysis that I have, raising some concerns about St Louis. Should they falter, they may not be as automatic as we think they are.

Concerns? How about we let these teams settle it on the floor?
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2013 01:08 PM by LouPower.)
11-22-2013 01:01 PM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-22-2013 01:01 PM)LouPower Wrote:  
(11-22-2013 10:20 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  I really think that Richmond is a non-starter. They got a lot of attention because of the Georgetown president's very public support for their candidacy.

However, any objective analysis of what they bring quickly shows way to many negatives. I'm sure that Fox has people on staff who will be quick to point out those negatives. Bringing in Richmond would be like bringing in Holy Cross except without HC's great history and tradition. The league badly wanted Holy Cross 35 years ago when times were different, but could anyone seriously imagine Holy Cross as a candidate today?

Assuming that St Louis is #11, I really think that it comes down to VCU and Dayton. While VCU has being a public school as a negative, it's geography is a very big plus. Their location saves money for East Coast teams on travel, which is a big deal for some of the Big East schools that operate with smaller budgets.

Their location plus their size is a big advantage for VCU's ability to deliver fans to the Big East tournament, which is a very high priority for this league. In the glow of the birth of this new confederation, Big East tournament tickets have been a hot commodity, but anyone who looks even a little farther down the road knows that there is no guarantee that this will continue. The ACC and the Big Ten have both shown interest in locating their tournaments in NYC. The Big East really doesn't want to create an opening for this interest to gain any traction. In this case, location matters.

For all of its great fit and top market, an expansion spot is St Louis's to lose. They have the inside track, but that doesn't mean they're automatic IMO. The move from CUSA to the A10 was not good for St Louis. Despite his success in reenergizing the Billikens' basketball program, it didn't result in improved attendance. Even this past season their were concerns in the local paper pointing to their problems in attendance. They drew 7,600 last year, which is not bad in some quarters of the Big East. But it's not good in comparison with Dayton, which drew 12,400 last year.

St Louis has drawn between 6,000 - 8,000 for the past 5 years and consistently fails to sell out its arena (capacity: 10,600). Prior to the past 5 years, their attendance was 8,000 - 10,000. Better but still not where it was in their CUSA hay day when their range was 11,000 - 18,000 between 1995 - 2002 with a highway after mark of 17,700 in 1998.

There are two ways to look at the decline in St Louis' attendance. First is simply that the program is not once was and that a steady decrease to 15 years shows that. The second is that the move to the A10 cut them off from their natural geographic rivals and that their CUSA attendance shows their true potential and a dormant fan base just waiting to be deactivated by renewed rivalries with Marquette, DePaul, etc.

The problem that St Louis suffers in comparison with Dayton is that the Flyers have shown none of the same declines in attendance. Dayton is also 330 miles closer to MSG, giving their larger fan base a smaller hurdle to surmount in delivering fannies in the seats at tournament time.

I'm assuming that St Louis is #11. But I'm also assuming that the number crunchers at Fox and the Big East will do the same analysis that I have, raising some concerns about St Louis. Should they falter, they may not be as automatic as we think they are.

Concerns? How about we let these teams settle it on the floor?

Don't sweat it, Lou. I think St Louis is in as long as they don't screw the pooch. If they do, other factors could come into play that cause the league to take a second look.
11-22-2013 06:50 PM
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RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(09-28-2013 10:22 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 09:12 PM)The Turk Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 07:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Scott Gleeson has recently posted this article on USA Today's website: "Power Mid Majors with final four Potential". That's precisely the kind of program that the Big East should be looking for in expansion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca...l/2842433/

UNM is an interesting choice...would be a nice part of a "western" division. The Lobos have an intense fanbase that would add to the BE. If we're going to go with a public, I'd prefer a flagship with a rabid fanbase plus Denver/SLU over a commuter school in vcu + SLU/UD

Denver is intriguing. Would be a great link to to the West if we ever wanted to cross it and wouldn't be a bad option to go with SLU.

Denver is all hockey.
11-23-2013 04:31 AM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-23-2013 04:31 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(09-28-2013 10:22 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 09:12 PM)The Turk Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 07:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Scott Gleeson has recently posted this article on USA Today's website: "Power Mid Majors with final four Potential". That's precisely the kind of program that the Big East should be looking for in expansion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca...l/2842433/

UNM is an interesting choice...would be a nice part of a "western" division. The Lobos have an intense fanbase that would add to the BE. If we're going to go with a public, I'd prefer a flagship with a rabid fanbase plus Denver/SLU over a commuter school in vcu + SLU/UD

Denver is intriguing. Would be a great link to to the West if we ever wanted to cross it and wouldn't be a bad option to go with SLU.

Denver is all hockey.

They are now, but they're also an investment. If they pan out, and they appear to have some degree of ambition, you have a presence in a major Western market while not ceding the point on institutional fit. They're on an island, but there's also a hub on that island, so it's not that big a deal.

Seattle may not be a bad long-term investment either. Nothing that you'd move on for quite some time, but eventually a western division of Creighton/Gonzaga/Denver/Seattle/St. Louis/DePaul/Marquette (and Butler if you expand to 16) might have a lot of potential.
11-23-2013 11:40 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-23-2013 11:40 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(11-23-2013 04:31 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(09-28-2013 10:22 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 09:12 PM)The Turk Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 07:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Scott Gleeson has recently posted this article on USA Today's website: "Power Mid Majors with final four Potential". That's precisely the kind of program that the Big East should be looking for in expansion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca...l/2842433/

UNM is an interesting choice...would be a nice part of a "western" division. The Lobos have an intense fanbase that would add to the BE. If we're going to go with a public, I'd prefer a flagship with a rabid fanbase plus Denver/SLU over a commuter school in vcu + SLU/UD

Denver is intriguing. Would be a great link to to the West if we ever wanted to cross it and wouldn't be a bad option to go with SLU.

Denver is all hockey.

They are now, but they're also an investment. If they pan out, and they appear to have some degree of ambition, you have a presence in a major Western market while not ceding the point on institutional fit. They're on an island, but there's also a hub on that island, so it's not that big a deal.

Seattle may not be a bad long-term investment either. Nothing that you'd move on for quite some time, but eventually a western division of Creighton/Gonzaga/Denver/Seattle/St. Louis/DePaul/Marquette (and Butler if you expand to 16) might have a lot of potential.

They both need to show some investment on their part first. They need to get up to Big East level before they can be considered. Also I don't think a full on western division will ever really be wanted by the league.
11-23-2013 12:31 PM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
(11-23-2013 11:40 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(11-23-2013 04:31 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(09-28-2013 10:22 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 09:12 PM)The Turk Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 07:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Scott Gleeson has recently posted this article on USA Today's website: "Power Mid Majors with final four Potential". That's precisely the kind of program that the Big East should be looking for in expansion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca...l/2842433/

UNM is an interesting choice...would be a nice part of a "western" division. The Lobos have an intense fanbase that would add to the BE. If we're going to go with a public, I'd prefer a flagship with a rabid fanbase plus Denver/SLU over a commuter school in vcu + SLU/UD

Denver is intriguing. Would be a great link to to the West if we ever wanted to cross it and wouldn't be a bad option to go with SLU.

Denver is all hockey.

They are now, but they're also an investment. If they pan out, and they appear to have some degree of ambition, you have a presence in a major Western market while not ceding the point on institutional fit. They're on an island, but there's also a hub on that island, so it's not that big a deal.

Seattle may not be a bad long-term investment either. Nothing that you'd move on for quite some time, but eventually a western division of Creighton/Gonzaga/Denver/Seattle/St. Louis/DePaul/Marquette (and Butler if you expand to 16) might have a lot of potential.

2012-13 Attendance Numbers (per game) for the Western schools proposed:

Creighton - 17,155
Marquette - 15,033
Butler - 7,899
DePaul - 7,681
St Louis -7,673
Gonzaga - 6,000
Denver - 3,312
Seattle - 2,726
11-24-2013 12:57 AM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Mid Majors with Final Four Potential
i thought denver was d1 in hockey only????
11-24-2013 11:14 AM
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