(09-16-2013 07:02 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Some reports of shooter allegedly having PTSD despite not being combat deployed.

Quote:He also told Seattle police he had witnessed the Sep. 11, 2001 terrorist attack and "how these events had disturbed him," according to a police report.

PTSD from this? Guess millions must have PTSD.....

(09-16-2013 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Why does NRA demand that employers not have the right to keep random people from taking firearms onto their premises again? Why do we need no questions asked access to high capacity clips and assault weapons at any 'gun show'?

I'd like to say I'm surprised about this horrible act. But I'm not. Because the last dozen times this exact same thing has happened, no one has done anything to stop the problem, which is access to extremely deadly weapons by those that shouldn't have that access.

It's already illegal to shoot people.

(09-16-2013 12:10 PM)Lush Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 12:06 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 11:59 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 11:50 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 11:42 AM)hburg Wrote:  It may be far fetched. But the descriptions given of the "shooters" fit the bill.

What was their description? I wouldn't doubt for one second that it either involved foreigners, was done to take the attention off of current affairs, or if it was a move made to further try to control gun rights.

Or they could just be a couple of crazy bastards.

That's a very logical assumption too, yes.

does it really matter who did it? all i know is people are dead

No. It evidently needs to be politicized. Lives are expendable for the sake of scoring political points on a college athletic message board.

Oh, I hate that term now, "What does it matter."

(09-16-2013 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Why does NRA demand that employers not have the right to keep random people from taking firearms onto their premises again? Why do we need no questions asked access to high capacity clips and assault weapons at any 'gun show'?

I'd like to say I'm surprised about this horrible act. But I'm not. Because the last dozen times this exact same thing has happened, no one has done anything to stop the problem, which is access to extremely deadly weapons by those that shouldn't have that access.

At least you're not already making it political. So there's that. GAY POWER!

Snowden, Chelsea Mannng, and now Alexis. All had at least Top Secret Clearances.

WTF??

I'm going to start my own Background Security Check Company. Jesus

(09-16-2013 12:10 PM)Lush Wrote:  does it really matter who did it?

I think it does, yes.

Quote:all i know is people are dead

That's the most important fact in this. But other facts are important, too.

(09-17-2013 06:17 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Snowden, Chelsea Mannng, and now Alexis. All had at least Top Secret Clearances.

WTF??

I'm going to start my own Background Security Check Company. Jesus

Ever watched the Science channel show Dark Matters? Has some very interesting episodes about how the CIA can control the minds of people.









The show claims these things are true and really happened.

(09-16-2013 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Why does NRA demand that employers not have the right to keep random people from taking firearms onto their premises again? Why do we need no questions asked access to high capacity clips and assault weapons at any 'gun show'?

I'd like to say I'm surprised about this horrible act. But I'm not. Because the last dozen times this exact same thing has happened, no one has done anything to stop the problem, which is access to extremely deadly weapons by those that shouldn't have that access.

Well, at this point you can't have a gun on a military installation, so liberal gun policies (aside from buying them in the first place) aren't really applicable here. The question should be how did this guy, who wasn't an MP, get a gun on a military base period. The next question is how did this guy get a clearance to contract for the military with the apparent problems he's had.

Twenty Five years ago Dick Marcinko and three other former members of Seal Team Six dressed in civilian clothing infiltrated the Washington Navy Yard and captured the Residence of the Chief of Naval Operations and held hostages, including members of his residential staff.

(09-17-2013 10:08 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Twenty Five years ago Dick Marcinko and three other former members of Seal Team Six dressed in civilian clothing infiltrated the Washington Navy Yard and captured the Residence of the Chief of Naval Operations and held hostages, including members of his residential staff.

His books are great. I wonder if he's still considered "persona non grata" by military folks?

(09-17-2013 06:17 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Snowden, Chelsea Mannng, and now Alexis. All had at least Top Secret Clearances.

WTF??

I'm going to start my own Background Security Check Company. Jesus

Start by asking "do you plan to kill or harm the United States or its citizens?", and follow up with "no, really?", and "were you just lying?".

(09-17-2013 09:28 AM)hburg Wrote:  The show claims these things are true and really happened.

So does "The Men Who Stared at Goats". If you watch both of them while you're stoned, I could see how you could believe they were true.

(09-16-2013 05:36 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Here I thought Buddhists were non-violent.....

There you go with your stereotypes again... lol. I particularly love it when people defending (in particular) violent Muslims from the stereotype that Muslims are violent, counter it with the equally untrue stereotype that Muslims are particularly peaceful. They're people... just like everyone else.

(09-16-2013 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Why does NRA demand that employers not have the right to keep random people from taking firearms onto their premises again?

The NRA can't "demand" anything any more than (choose your favorite minority group) can. Given that this is a military installation and private firearms are not allowed, this comment is not only incorrect but makes no sense at all.

Quote:Why do we need no questions asked access to high capacity clips and assault weapons at any 'gun show'?

There is functionally no difference between an AR-15 and most hunting rifles... other than the fact that most hunting rifles pack a bigger punch. I've not read that he had a high capacity magazine or that it was bought at a gun show, but perhaps you have. He also had a shotgun and a pistol he took off of a policeman he shot. I raise this point because clearly he could have walked in with nothing but a 3 shot shot-gun and suddenly had possession of a military/police grade weapon without need for a gun show. I'm no huge fan of gun shows and wouldn't have a problem with stricter guidelines here... but the introduction of facts not in evidence to make a point that isn't supported by the evidence alone is an emotional and not factual reach. Even if this portion is true... that it was high capacity and that he got it from a gun show, is there any evidence that someone with a military clearance wouldn't have been allowed to purchase the same weapon from a regular dealer?

Quote:I'd like to say I'm surprised about this horrible act. But I'm not. Because the last dozen times this exact same thing has happened, no one has done anything to stop the problem, which is access to extremely deadly weapons by those that shouldn't have that access.

On what basis do you reach the conclusion that he shouldn't have had access? How exactly is an AR-15 any more deadly than a 9mm Glock?

When only one guy had a gun everyone else is at his mercy.

(09-17-2013 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 05:36 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Here I thought Buddhists were non-violent.....

There you go with your stereotypes again... lol. I particularly love it when people defending (in particular) violent Muslims from the stereotype that Muslims are violent, counter it with the equally untrue stereotype that Muslims are particularly peaceful. They're people... just like everyone else.

(09-16-2013 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Why does NRA demand that employers not have the right to keep random people from taking firearms onto their premises again?

The NRA can't "demand" anything any more than (choose your favorite minority group) can. Given that this is a military installation and private firearms are not allowed, this comment is not only incorrect but makes no sense at all.

Quote:Why do we need no questions asked access to high capacity clips and assault weapons at any 'gun show'?

There is functionally no difference between an AR-15 and most hunting rifles... other than the fact that most hunting rifles pack a bigger punch. I've not read that he had a high capacity magazine or that it was bought at a gun show, but perhaps you have. He also had a shotgun and a pistol he took off of a policeman he shot. I raise this point because clearly he could have walked in with nothing but a 3 shot shot-gun and suddenly had possession of a military/police grade weapon without need for a gun show. I'm no huge fan of gun shows and wouldn't have a problem with stricter guidelines here... but the introduction of facts not in evidence to make a point that isn't supported by the evidence alone is an emotional and not factual reach. Even if this portion is true... that it was high capacity and that he got it from a gun show, is there any evidence that someone with a military clearance wouldn't have been allowed to purchase the same weapon from a regular dealer?

Quote:I'd like to say I'm surprised about this horrible act. But I'm not. Because the last dozen times this exact same thing has happened, no one has done anything to stop the problem, which is access to extremely deadly weapons by those that shouldn't have that access.

On what basis do you reach the conclusion that he shouldn't have had access? How exactly is an AR-15 any more deadly than a 9mm Glock?

Replying to Lazytom is like talking to a fencepost. OOps, I'm stereotyping fenceposts.......

(09-16-2013 07:02 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Some reports of shooter allegedly having PTSD despite not being combat deployed.

GMA reported that he had helped rescue people on Sept. 11, 2001. His family is from Brooklyn.

PTSD is not limited to those who have been in combat. It is possible for a child to suffer from it:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraum...s_disorder

(09-17-2013 10:56 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 06:17 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Snowden, Chelsea Mannng, and now Alexis. All had at least Top Secret Clearances.

WTF??

I'm going to start my own Background Security Check Company. Jesus

Start by asking "do you plan to kill or harm the United States or its citizens?", and follow up with "no, really?", and "were you just lying?".

(09-17-2013 09:28 AM)hburg Wrote:  The show claims these things are true and really happened.

So does "The Men Who Stared at Goats". If you watch both of them while you're stoned, I could see how you could believe they were true.

Actually if you google the scientist names, you will find that they did indeed have these types of experiments and were quite successful. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra a little bit of information about Project MKUltra in the 1950's.

I'm not willing to put a lot of effort into researching this, but I do find Brian Dunning to do a pretty good job of examining various mythologies, and will post a link to his discussion of this. I can't vouch for Dunning as being impeccable, but I think he does a pretty good job most of the time.

Information about MK Ultra is pretty widely available, and it was definitely evil and ill-advised... they probably found one of a million of ways to destroy someone's being, but saying it was quite successful is a pretty broad stretch.

The Secrets of MKULTRA

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4373 Wrote:The short version of the MKULTRA story is that the CIA spent a long time trying to control minds. After performing all kinds of dastardly and unethical testing, they found they couldn't reliably achieve their goals, and terminated the program. That's it. It's important to keep it in context, both what it was and what it wasn't. It's evidence that the government tried something that didn't work. It's also evidence that the government has been proven willing to bend the rules; and by "bending the rules" I mean breaking laws and violating both civil rights and ethics at every level.

He was working there as a HP consultant.

Quote:He most likely gained entry into the facility with a CAC card, or a common access card. The system does not require workers to pass through a metal detector and usually only requires employees to show the card. Senior military officials tell Fox News that he most likely shot his way into building 197, because that building requires a separate pass he did not have.

Quote:Hewlett-Packard issued a statement Monday saying that at the time of the shootings, Alexis worked for The Experts, a subcontractor on an HP Enterprise Services contract to refresh equipment used on the Navy Marine Corps Intranet network. The FBI said he had legitimate access to the Navy Yard "as a result of his work as a contractor."