(09-25-2013 12:50 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  If I'm not mistaken, this is a thread regarding expansion candidates. Is this out of place?

I'm sorry if you don't like VCU for whatever reason. It seems you have a natural dislike for the school for some reason and tend to downplay positives that are brought up regarding VCU aughnanure.

I'm not sure why, but I've seen that both on here and HolyLandOfHoops.

No, the problem is it becomes a thread entirely devoted to VCU fans posting every positive media mention they get. Honestly, we can't even even mention other schools without everything immediately turning into "why aren't you talking about VCU?"

I just don't think VCU's pros are as big and bright as you all think they are. Somehow every negative against VCU is a mirage and every positive shows VCU is just moments from becoming UConn. Stever freakin' acts like The Big East's success as a league will be dependent on if VCU is included or not.

I have said multiple times if we're going to 16 then bring VCU and Wichita St in.

(09-25-2013 12:37 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it's natrual to debate VCU, SLU, Gonzaga, etc. as they are the schools that are the ones that will be the expansion candidates.

Except you try to quiet any mention of "etc" with "VCU!!!!!!"

I will say this and I like VCU. VCU versus LaSalle & St Louis will be must see TV for me this year.

Look, VCU is a nice little program on the come up. They have a great coach who may or may not stick around long term. The truth is they have exactly one more Sweet 16 appearance than I do. If they trend upwards the next 5 years or so and create a brand bigger than Shaka. Great, they will be worth this discussion. Until then they deserve a pat on the head and a smack on the ... and told to go play in the kids sandbox (A10). A hot month in 2011 does not make a program. Please don't insult me by telling me about their history of winning when they haven't made it past the 2nd round of the NCAA's until 2 years ago.

Brands are not built in a few years. Gonzaga is a brand that has a sustained string of success.

(09-25-2013 01:33 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  I will say this and I like VCU. VCU versus LaSalle & St Louis will be must see TV for me this year.

Look, VCU is a nice little program on the come up. They have a great coach who may or may not stick around long term. The truth is they have exactly one more Sweet 16 appearance than I do. If they trend upwards the next 5 years or so and create a brand bigger than Shaka. Great, they will be worth this discussion. Until then they deserve a pat on the head and a smack on the ... and told to go play in the kids sandbox (A10). A hot month in 2011 does not make a program. Please don't insult me by telling me about their history of winning when they haven't made it past the 2nd round of the NCAA's until 2 years ago.

Brands are not built in a few years. Gonzaga is a brand that has a sustained string of success.

I think the thing with VCU though- if they make the elite 8 or final 4 again- that changes the entire equation. I mean, right there, they would have done more than Gonzaga EVER has done. Actually, even right now, VCU has done more than Gonzaga. Gonzaga 1st time made the elite 8. They have NEVER been back.

Also, the fact is- if the Big East is expanding now- VCU's credentials far outweigh any of the other candidates. It's not even remotely close. Dayton has exactly 2 tourney wins in the last 29 years. That's the exact same as VCU has had since they made the final 4. Richmond is so far behind VCU in the city of Richmond it's not even close. Oh, and they have as many tourney wins in the last 15 years as VCU has had since the final four! The only one who can come remotely close is SLU just because of where they are the last couple of years.... All of you anti-VCU folks say well VCU hasn't done enough to guarantee they'll stay good, but then say we'll take Dayton and sprinkle some Big East fairy dust on them, and they'll be good. That's just loony bin stuff.... All of this has NOTHING to do with how good VCU is on the floor. NOTHING. The only thing it has to do with is a damn litmus test. And you all know that. If Richmond had VCU's resume, they are in right now. PERIOD. This conference can't afford to make a mistake right now. Not with all the D4 stuff swirling.

VCU still would not be in. If the BEAST wanted them in, they would be in. They have yet to build a program with sustained success. Gonzaga has been to the Sweet 16 five times, VCU 1 (just 2 years ago). If Gonzaga were located further East it wouldn't even be a discussion. The Big East waited because other teams in the East & Midwest were not good enough. Whenever a program can step up a discussion can be made.

Just seems like a lot of hostility for optimism from fans of a team. You don't expect VCU fans to want to sell their school?

Doesn't make too much sense to me.

The facts are all of the candidates are pretty much as or less accomplished than VCU unless we're talking Gonzaga as an actual viable candidate, which no one has seriously mentioned in the media recently. Dayton, SLU, and Richmond have similarly done pretty little of note in the big picture over the last 30-40 years.

No one is replacing UConn, Cuse, Pitt, Louisville etc. Not even close.

Continuing on...
Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU and Richmond are the leaders.

Below are the northeastern population centers without a Big East team right now: I can't see any of these teams making a run, though the city of Buffalo is sitting there for the taking like a giant ripe peach:

Pittsburgh:
Duquesne: No NCAA tourneys since 1977. 5 total. Shares city with Pitt.

Buffalo: each of these three has loads of old school history with many Big East teams:
Canisius (in city): One tourney since the Eisenhower Administration, in 1996.
Niagara (20 miles north): NCAA's in 2007, 2005 and 1970 (Calvin Murphy in '70!).
Saint Bonaventure (75 miles south): 2 NCAA's since 1980, in 2012 and 2000. 6 total. Final Four in 1970 (Bob Lanier!)

Albany:
Siena: NCAA's in 2010, 2009, 2008, 2002, 1999, 1989. 3 wins. Very impressive attendance for a MAAC school. Has Albany to itself.

Boston:
Boston University: 6 NCAA's from 1983 til today. No wins. Made Elite-8 in 1959. Draws 850 fans per game at home, making them an impossible add. Would be perfect otherwise. Located in Kenmore Square, around corner from Fenway Park and Citgo Sign. Great hockey school. Pitino's first head coaching gig.
Northeastern: Dominated ECAC-North in the 80's under Jim Calhoun. Had Reggie Lewis, Perry Moss and Andre LaFleur. No NCAA's since 1991. Good hockey. Fourth most popular school in Boston, behind, BC, Harvard and BU.

Connecticut:
Fairfield: 3 NCAA's in history. Pete Gillen alma mater. Ed Cooley's first head coaching gig. Great location, far enough from St John's, but still in NYC orbit.
Quinnipiac: New program. Money being poured into school. Very good hockey that reached the national finals last season. Great polling.

Baltimore:
Umm... Towson: 2 NCAA's, in 1990 and 1991. Only Baltimore school with a hoops team that I can think of.

Maybe someone can do a grouping of midwestern and southern cities without Big East teams...

(09-25-2013 02:28 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  VCU still would not be in. If the BEAST wanted them in, they would be in. They have yet to build a program with sustained success. Gonzaga has been to the Sweet 16 five times, VCU 1 (just 2 years ago). If Gonzaga were located further East it wouldn't even be a discussion. The Big East waited because other teams in the East & Midwest were not good enough. Whenever a program can step up a discussion can be made.

If the Big East expands anytime in the near future, VCU has done by far more than anyone in contention. I mean they have as many wins after their final 4 than Dayton in the last 29 years, Richmond in the last 15 years, and SLU in the last 18 years.

If VCU makes the tourney this year they'd have been in the tourney 7/10 years and 6/7 years. That's getting into sustained success. If they win a game this year, that's wins in 4 straight years. You're not going to find much more in terms of sustained success than that. Hell, Creighton can't even match that. Tourney bids in 9/15 years. Wins in 4 of those years(total of 4 wins). Oh, and exactly ZERO sweet 16's.

Bottom line, the only reason why VCU isn't in is they're public. Period. You and I both know that. It's absolute bs. Especially given what is going on with this d4 stuff.

(09-25-2013 04:41 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-25-2013 02:28 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  VCU still would not be in. If the BEAST wanted them in, they would be in. They have yet to build a program with sustained success. Gonzaga has been to the Sweet 16 five times, VCU 1 (just 2 years ago). If Gonzaga were located further East it wouldn't even be a discussion. The Big East waited because other teams in the East & Midwest were not good enough. Whenever a program can step up a discussion can be made.

If the Big East expands anytime in the near future, VCU has done by far more than anyone in contention. I mean they have as many wins after their final 4 than Dayton in the last 29 years, Richmond in the last 15 years, and SLU in the last 18 years.

If VCU makes the tourney this year they'd have been in the tourney 7/10 years and 6/7 years. That's getting into sustained success. If they win a game this year, that's wins in 4 straight years. You're not going to find much more in terms of sustained success than that. Hell, Creighton can't even match that. Tourney bids in 9/15 years. Wins in 4 of those years(total of 4 wins). Oh, and exactly ZERO sweet 16's.

Bottom line, the only reason why VCU isn't in is they're public. Period. You and I both know that. It's absolute bs. Especially given what is going on with this d4 stuff.

It's not just that. They would not and should not have been in ahead of any if the teams who were added.

(09-25-2013 01:27 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  No, the problem is it becomes a thread entirely devoted to VCU fans posting every positive media mention they get. Honestly, we can't even even mention other schools without everything immediately turning into "why aren't you talking about VCU?"

You think we're annoying now, wait until we're IN the Big East.

(09-25-2013 04:47 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(09-25-2013 04:41 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-25-2013 02:28 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  VCU still would not be in. If the BEAST wanted them in, they would be in. They have yet to build a program with sustained success. Gonzaga has been to the Sweet 16 five times, VCU 1 (just 2 years ago). If Gonzaga were located further East it wouldn't even be a discussion. The Big East waited because other teams in the East & Midwest were not good enough. Whenever a program can step up a discussion can be made.

If the Big East expands anytime in the near future, VCU has done by far more than anyone in contention. I mean they have as many wins after their final 4 than Dayton in the last 29 years, Richmond in the last 15 years, and SLU in the last 18 years.

If VCU makes the tourney this year they'd have been in the tourney 7/10 years and 6/7 years. That's getting into sustained success. If they win a game this year, that's wins in 4 straight years. You're not going to find much more in terms of sustained success than that. Hell, Creighton can't even match that. Tourney bids in 9/15 years. Wins in 4 of those years(total of 4 wins). Oh, and exactly ZERO sweet 16's.

Bottom line, the only reason why VCU isn't in is they're public. Period. You and I both know that. It's absolute bs. Especially given what is going on with this d4 stuff.

It's not just that. They would not and should not have been in ahead of any if the teams who were added.

Agree with this. The Big East got it right with who they added.

That they didn't rush to 12 shows they want to make sure they get 11 and 12 right as well.

(09-25-2013 02:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-25-2013 01:33 PM)BigmanU Wrote:  I will say this and I like VCU. VCU versus LaSalle & St Louis will be must see TV for me this year.

Look, VCU is a nice little program on the come up. They have a great coach who may or may not stick around long term. The truth is they have exactly one more Sweet 16 appearance than I do. If they trend upwards the next 5 years or so and create a brand bigger than Shaka. Great, they will be worth this discussion. Until then they deserve a pat on the head and a smack on the ... and told to go play in the kids sandbox (A10). A hot month in 2011 does not make a program. Please don't insult me by telling me about their history of winning when they haven't made it past the 2nd round of the NCAA's until 2 years ago.

Brands are not built in a few years. Gonzaga is a brand that has a sustained string of success.

I think the thing with VCU though- if they make the elite 8 or final 4 again- that changes the entire equation. I mean, right there, they would have done more than Gonzaga EVER has done. Actually, even right now, VCU has done more than Gonzaga. Gonzaga 1st time made the elite 8. They have NEVER been back.

Also, the fact is- if the Big East is expanding now- VCU's credentials far outweigh any of the other candidates. It's not even remotely close. Dayton has exactly 2 tourney wins in the last 29 years. That's the exact same as VCU has had since they made the final 4. Richmond is so far behind VCU in the city of Richmond it's not even close. Oh, and they have as many tourney wins in the last 15 years as VCU has had since the final four! The only one who can come remotely close is SLU just because of where they are the last couple of years.... All of you anti-VCU folks say well VCU hasn't done enough to guarantee they'll stay good, but then say we'll take Dayton and sprinkle some Big East fairy dust on them, and they'll be good. That's just loony bin stuff.... All of this has NOTHING to do with how good VCU is on the floor. NOTHING. The only thing it has to do with is a damn litmus test. And you all know that. If Richmond had VCU's resume, they are in right now. PERIOD. This conference can't afford to make a mistake right now. Not with all the D4 stuff swirling.

I think you're making it seem to easy to accomplish those things. If and that's a big if, they do make another run like that again it will be quite the accomplishment. It's no where near a given though. You just make it sound so easy.

I think a consensus has emerged from all of the debate on this thread:

1. The big East should not add teams just for the sake of adding.
2. Whomever they add should be a strong basketball program with a proven track record.
3. If they have to wait 5 years to find programs, then they should wait the 5 years.
4. Programs like that are hard to find.

(09-26-2013 06:43 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  I think a consensus has emerged from all of the debate on this thread:

1. The big East should not add teams just for the sake of adding.
2. Whomever they add should be a strong basketball program with a proven track record.
3. If they have to wait 5 years to find programs, then they should wait the 5 years.
4. Programs like that are hard to find.

This!!!

I think one major question is does the Fox contract require the Big East to be up to 12 schools by a certain year? I've seen some posters indicate this. That would kind of eliminate #3 and change everything.

(09-26-2013 08:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think one major question is does the Fox contract require the Big East to be up to 12 schools by a certain year? I've seen some posters indicate this. That would kind of eliminate #3 and change everything.

I highly doubt that there's a *requirement* to that effect. There's a litany of negative legal issues that arise for the Big East and Fox to actually put it into a contract, so I don't think that their respective lawyers would be crazy/dumb enough to include that type of provision. What's more likely is a look-in or a commitment by Fox that they'll keep the per school payments at the same level if there's expansion (so any expansion decision would be revenue neutral).

However, there are certainly some reasons to expand outside of the TV context. For instance, adding some scale by going up to 12 teams can even out the results of the league year-to-year. Final Fours are nice for the league, but aren't as important as making sure that 3 to 5 schools from the league are making it to the NCAA Tournament every single year. As we saw with the Pac-10 prior to expansion (where their headliners of UCLA and Arizona hit a rough patch at the same time a few years ago), there's no margin for error in a 10-team league when your marquee programs falter. 12 schools give you more of a buffer (even if those additional 2 schools aren't world-beaters). Exposure in other new markets and recruiting areas is another factor in expansion.

Here's the thing: if you ask fans, players and coaches, they'll probably overwhelmingly tell you that they love a 10-school conference where you can play a double round robin. It's incredibly desirable for pure on-the-court interests. The problem is that this concept increasingly looks like a relic in today's world where realignment is driven by off-the-court interests. Virtually every interest off-the-court (TV networks, university presidents looking for more institutional exposure, sponsors, Madison Square Garden, etc.) are going to have very heavy incentives to expand to 12. If there's one thing that we should have learned by now in conference realignment, it's that the voices of the fans, players and coaches are basically irrelevant in the decisions. This is about the interests of university presidents and TV network executives off-the-court (and they, as a rule, take a "bigger is better" approach).

To be sure, getting bigger isn't better in and of itself, but all things being equal, there's still more risk in being too small than being too large. This is today's college sports reality. That's why I don't think the Big East will end up waiting very long for expansion. It will happen sooner rather than later.

(09-26-2013 10:16 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 08:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think one major question is does the Fox contract require the Big East to be up to 12 schools by a certain year? I've seen some posters indicate this. That would kind of eliminate #3 and change everything.

I highly doubt that there's a *requirement* to that effect. There's a litany of negative legal issues that arise for the Big East and Fox to actually put it into a contract, so I don't think that their respective lawyers would be crazy/dumb enough to include that type of provision. What's more likely is a look-in or a commitment by Fox that they'll keep the per school payments at the same level if there's expansion (so any expansion decision would be revenue neutral).

However, there are certainly some reasons to expand outside of the TV context. For instance, adding some scale by going up to 12 teams can even out the results of the league year-to-year. Final Fours are nice for the league, but aren't as important as making sure that 3 to 5 schools from the league are making it to the NCAA Tournament every single year. As we saw with the Pac-10 prior to expansion (where their headliners of UCLA and Arizona hit a rough patch at the same time a few years ago), there's no margin for error in a 10-team league when your marquee programs falter. 12 schools give you more of a buffer (even if those additional 2 schools aren't world-beaters). Exposure in other new markets and recruiting areas is another factor in expansion.

Here's the thing: if you ask fans, players and coaches, they'll probably overwhelmingly tell you that they love a 10-school conference where you can play a double round robin. It's incredibly desirable for pure on-the-court interests. The problem is that this concept increasingly looks like a relic in today's world where realignment is driven by off-the-court interests. Virtually every interest off-the-court (TV networks, university presidents looking for more institutional exposure, sponsors, Madison Square Garden, etc.) are going to have very heavy incentives to expand to 12. If there's one thing that we should have learned by now in conference realignment, it's that the voices of the fans, players and coaches are basically irrelevant in the decisions. This is about the interests of university presidents and TV network executives off-the-court (and they, as a rule, take a "bigger is better" approach).

To be sure, getting bigger isn't better in and of itself, but all things being equal, there's still more risk in being too small than being too large. This is today's college sports reality. That's why I don't think the Big East will end up waiting very long for expansion. It will happen sooner rather than later.

I agree, especially with the MSG part. I'm sure they would much rather have 12 fan bases coming to town than 10.

My prediction is we will expand within the next two years. No latter then shortly after the 2014-2015 season.

totally agree. Which could be huge this year- imagine a scenario like last year with VCU where they showed extremely well at Barclay's. The A10 tourney could be huge for that.

I think in a lot of ways, performance this year is huge. I would not be shocked to see us at 12 next season quite frankly with VCU and SLU.

VCU and SLU would be the smart move!