BB Elite = UK, IU, UCLA, Kansas, Duke and UNC.

FB Elite = Miami/FSU/Florida (I see them together for some reason), Alabama, PSU, ND, Michigan, Ohio State and USC. Texas, OU and Nebraska as well.

These names transcend the games they are known for - some downer years or even stretches but over time have remained at or near the top consistently for years and will so for years to come.

If we are going to count Louisville and Cincinnati as Elite basketball programs then why not Ohio State too?

23 NCAA appearances
18 Big Ten Championships
9 Final Four appearances
4 National Player of the Year winners
1 NCAA Championship
1 Greg Oden


The actual Elite basketball programs are(in no particular order) North Carolina, Duke, Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA.

For Football they are: Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, and USC.

BuckeyeStu Wrote:If we are going to count Louisville and Cincinnati as Elite basketball programs then why not Ohio State too?

23 NCAA appearances
18 Big Ten Championships
9 Final Four appearances
4 National Player of the Year winners
1 NCAA Championship
1 Greg Oden


The actual Elite basketball programs are(in no particular order) North Carolina, Duke, Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA.

For Football they are: Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and USC

Need that 2nd NCAA Title my friend. BUT tOSU is IMHO right there with Syracuse, Michigan and Arizona.

Maize Wrote:

BuckeyeStu Wrote:If we are going to count Louisville and Cincinnati as Elite basketball programs then why not Ohio State too?

23 NCAA appearances
18 Big Ten Championships
9 Final Four appearances
4 National Player of the Year winners
1 NCAA Championship
1 Greg Oden


The actual Elite basketball programs are(in no particular order) North Carolina, Duke, Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA.

For Football they are: Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and USC

Need that 2nd NCAA Title my friend. BUT tOSU is IMHO right there with Syracuse, Michigan and Arizona.

I know that Ohio State in not an elite program, my point is that neither is Lousiville or Cincinnati. There are 6 basketball programs that truly stand above the rest, Louisville, Cincy, Ohio State, and many others fall in to the second tier of programs.

I think I will abstain from this discussion. It's merely a subjective view of a popularity contest. This year's NCAA tournament was more in the luck of the draw than it was talent I think. Florida just got a great draw. Nothing more, nothing less. Although I think peaking in the final four helped out a bit too.

BuckeyeStu Wrote:

Maize Wrote:

BuckeyeStu Wrote:If we are going to count Louisville and Cincinnati as Elite basketball programs then why not Ohio State too?

23 NCAA appearances
18 Big Ten Championships
9 Final Four appearances
4 National Player of the Year winners
1 NCAA Championship
1 Greg Oden


The actual Elite basketball programs are(in no particular order) North Carolina, Duke, Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA.

For Football they are: Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and USC

Need that 2nd NCAA Title my friend. BUT tOSU is IMHO right there with Syracuse, Michigan and Arizona.

I know that Ohio State in not an elite program, my point is that neither is Lousiville or Cincinnati. There are 6 basketball programs that truly stand above the rest, Louisville, Cincy, Ohio State, and many others fall in to the second tier of programs.

Well both Street and Smith and The Sporting News have put Louisville as the number 7 program in NCAA Basketball history. Cincinnati was in the Top 10 for the Sporting News.

Louisville
NCAA Appearances 32
NCAA Wins 53
NCAA Elite Eights 9
NCAA Final Fours 8
NCAA Titles 2
NIT Titles 1

If that is not elite historically then I don't know what is. Overall that is better then the other Tier 2 schools.

I'm with you fellows.

As much as I hate them, they're one of only 9 schools to have won both a national championship in basketball and a mythical national championship in football (as determined by either the AP or the coaches poll). Can you name the 9?

Even more impressive, only one school has won both multiple times. Can you name that school?

USFFan

usffan Wrote:As much as I hate them, they're one of only 9 schools to have won both a national championship in basketball and a mythical national championship in football (as determined by either the AP or the coaches poll). Can you name the 9?

Even more impressive, only one school has won both multiple times. Can you name that school?

USFFan

The 9
UCLA
Michigan St
Michigan
Florida
Arkansas
Maryland
Ohio St
California
Syracuse

-This is not really an "exact" question since a lot of years have 3 champions listed, each with 2 to 3 polls from the time or retroactively agreeing with that selection of champion. I think that's probably the 9 you refer to though.

Michigan St is the only team with multiple titles in both sports.

CollegeCard Wrote:

usffan Wrote:As much as I hate them, they're one of only 9 schools to have won both a national championship in basketball and a mythical national championship in football (as determined by either the AP or the coaches poll). Can you name the 9?

Even more impressive, only one school has won both multiple times. Can you name that school?

USFFan

The 9
UCLA
Michigan St
Michigan
Florida
Arkansas
Maryland
Ohio St
California
Syracuse

-This is not really an "exact" question since a lot of years have 3 champions listed, each with 2 to 3 polls from the time or retroactively agreeing with that selection of champion. I think that's probably the 9 you refer to though.

Michigan St is the only team with multiple titles in both sports.

Agree with the point you make about multiple mythical championships - the same could be true for basketball as well, since prior to the NIT in 1938, the bb 'champion' was a mythical one as well and from 1939 to about 1949, the NIT and NCAA created 2 different bb champions - it wasn't until CCNY won both in 1950 that the NCAA started to draw away from the NIT. Wonder how many more could be added to the list if we looked at the 'retroactive mythical champs' and the NIT champs?

For me, the standard is, how many schools were determined to be the outright football best team of a given year (no dispute) as well as an NCAA championship from 1950 forward?

In that case, Florida just joined Michigan, Ohio State, and Syracuse as the only schools to have accomplished this feat.

Cheers,
Neil

I think Michigan State's 1952 national championship in football was undisputed.

For what it's worth, I did mention that the only criteria I was using for football was either the AP or the coaches poll (UPI until 1990, USA Today starting in 1991). Those give you the following:

Stanford (football 1926, basketball 1942)
Cal (football 1920, basketball 1959)
Ohio State (football 1942, 54, 57, 68, 2002, basketball 1960)
UCLA (football 1954, basketball 1964, 65, 67-73, 75, 95)
Michigan State (football 1952, 65, basketball 1979, 2000)
Michigan (football 1901, 02, 32, 33, 48, 97, basketball 1989)
Maryland (football 1953, basketball 2002)
Syracuse (football 1959, basketball 2003)
Fl*rida (football 1996, basketball 2006)

Arkansas has never won a football championship from either poll. That 1964 "championship" was awarded to Bama in both of the aforementioned polls.

I also realized that prior to 1936, neither poll existed. I used this site:

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/r...champs.txt

to list the ones prior to 1936.

USFFan

Maize Wrote:

BuckeyeStu Wrote:

Maize Wrote:

BuckeyeStu Wrote:If we are going to count Louisville and Cincinnati as Elite basketball programs then why not Ohio State too?

23 NCAA appearances
18 Big Ten Championships
9 Final Four appearances
4 National Player of the Year winners
1 NCAA Championship
1 Greg Oden


The actual Elite basketball programs are(in no particular order) North Carolina, Duke, Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA.

For Football they are: Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Alabama, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and USC

Need that 2nd NCAA Title my friend. BUT tOSU is IMHO right there with Syracuse, Michigan and Arizona.

I know that Ohio State in not an elite program, my point is that neither is Lousiville or Cincinnati. There are 6 basketball programs that truly stand above the rest, Louisville, Cincy, Ohio State, and many others fall in to the second tier of programs.

Well both Street and Smith and The Sporting News have put Louisville as the number 7 program in NCAA Basketball history. Cincinnati was in the Top 10 for the Sporting News.

Louisville
NCAA Appearances 32
NCAA Wins 53
NCAA Elite Eights 9
NCAA Final Fours 8
NCAA Titles 2
NIT Titles 1

If that is not elite historically then I don't know what is. Overall that is better then the other Tier 2 schools.

I think you are missing his point, and your being a Card's fan makes it understandable - since I see Louisville as truly betwixt and between. As great a resume as Louisville has (and I agree with Street & Smith placing it at #7), it falls short of the Top 6 programs. To gain on the Top 6, Louisville will need to win at least two more championships since it has only about a .600 winning percentage in the NCAAs and isn't likely to enter the Top 10 in terms of all-time wins or winning percentage. When the Cards have done this (won 2 more titles) then they are likely to be considered on the same level as the Top 6 programs.

Until that point in time, they are indeed #7 (unless some program overtakes them), but just being #7 doesn't make them 'elite' or put them in the same class as the programs ahead of them.

And for the record, I'm much more impressed with the Cards 9 Final Four appearances than their 2 NCAA championships - and believe Louisville would still be #7 even if they had only won 1 NCAA instead of 2.

Still, as another poster rightly points out, this is all subjective.

Cheers,
Neil

Here's where I would rank them (in order), with consistency across eras being a big plus:

The Elite: UCLA, North Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, with Indiana lagging behind those five.

2nd tier: Louisville, Syracuse, Arizona, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Michigan State, Ohio State, Oklahoma State

3rd tier: North Carolina State, Georgetown, Arkansas, Michigan, Maryland, Florida, Marquette, Villanova

Saint Monday Wrote:Here's where I would rank them (in order), with consistency across eras being a big plus:

The Elite: UCLA, North Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, with Indiana lagging behind those five.

2nd tier: Louisville, Syracuse, Arizona, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Michigan State, Ohio State, Oklahoma State

3rd tier: North Carolina State, Georgetown, Arkansas, Michigan, Maryland, Florida, Marquette, Villanova

I could agree with that.

I would say. Eventhough i may not like it. They have a very good coach and they have lots of loyal fans and a HUGE budget.

usffan Wrote:I think Michigan State's 1952 national championship in football was undisputed.

For what it's worth, I did mention that the only criteria I was using for football was either the AP or the coaches poll (UPI until 1990, USA Today starting in 1991). Those give you the following:

Stanford (football 1926, basketball 1942)
Cal (football 1920, basketball 1959)
Ohio State (football 1942, 54, 57, 68, 2002, basketball 1960)
UCLA (football 1954, basketball 1964, 65, 67-73, 75, 95)
Michigan State (football 1952, 65, basketball 1979, 2000)
Michigan (football 1901, 02, 32, 33, 48, 97, basketball 1989)
Maryland (football 1953, basketball 2002)
Syracuse (football 1959, basketball 2003)
Fl*rida (football 1996, basketball 2006)

Arkansas has never won a football championship from either poll. That 1964 "championship" was awarded to Bama in both of the aforementioned polls.

I also realized that prior to 1936, neither poll existed. I used this site:

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/r...champs.txt

to list the ones prior to 1936.

USFFan

Using the AP and UPI polls is a fair way to look at the mythical championships from 1936 forward - but even here, there is dispute since several sources existed outside the polls to measure this 'mythical' champion. For prior to, I definitely use this site. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com

This site also gives every team that received some recognition as 'national champion' for every year and then makes a call as to whether or not enough of these sources were in dispute to allow for more than one team to claim the mythical championship.

If you go to the site check out 1920, 1926, 1952, 1953, and 1964 with years like 1924, 1955, 1959, and 1963. I think you might see a marked difference between what constitutes a disputed mythical championship versus what marks a disputed one.

Cheers,
Neil

Does anyone know how many ncaa bb championships kansas has won? How many final fours have they been to?

What site do you guys use to find these stats for bb?

cuseroc Wrote:Does anyone know how many ncaa bb championships kansas has won? How many final fours have they been to?

What site do you guys use to find these stats for bb?

I got this from this web site:

9 NCAA Final Fours
2 NCAA Titles

Remember the NCAA Tournament did not start until 1939.

http://www.rockchalk.com/seasons/

Maize Wrote:

fsquid Wrote:San Francisco and Oklahoma State have multiple national titles and final fours. You have to put them in the elite status.

I counted Final Fours as well. The Dons have not won anything since KC Jones and Bill Russell graduated and went to the Celtics. Plus you need to win for a LONG period of time. Oklahoma State is on that 2nd Tier since their titles are in the freaking 40s.

Cincy hasn't done much since Oscar left either! Except to flame out in the first weekend of the NCAAs.

FSquid, actually, UC didn't win any championships while Oscar was there. UC won their championships the first 2 years after he left...