(08-13-2013 02:32 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:11 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

Quote:at some point a little bit of logic needs to happen. is a 17 year old smart enough to know whats best for herself? i mean she's smart enough to drive, apply to a college, have a job......

An 18 y/o can get statutory rape charges for sleeping with a 17 y/o. Obviously the law doesn't think she's fit to know what's best for her.

im pretty sure thats been changed to make it legal (2 years in between rule)

and fyi a 17 year old can drive & apply for college but we deem them not capable of making their own decisions about their body

I got my license in 1994 when I was 15. What's your point about driving age?

(08-13-2013 02:38 PM)john01992 Wrote:  id rather have a scared teen go to a clinic with trained staff rather than a black market location. you dont make a bad point, we just have different perspectives on where we dont want a scared teen to turn too

Clearly. I'd rather they turned to the guy they've always turned to when they were scared: Me.

You don't have children, do you?

(08-13-2013 02:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:32 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:17 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:12 PM)john01992 Wrote:  they should as heck get counseling. my concern is what if the teen is absolutely adamant that their parents cant find out. sometimes they overblow things like "my dads gonna kill me cuz i crashed his car" or sometimes they know that their parents will make their lives miserable if they do it. thats where things get problematic. teens will go through unnecessary means to get an abortion if they dont want their parents to find out. and thats what i want to eliminate. if were talking safety here then abortion should be as accessible as possible because we surely as hell dont want a bunch of teens resorting to black market clinics of try to give themselves abortions.

as for the college/driving argument. you can help & teach her. but you cant force her to get behind the wheel of a car & you cant force her to apply for college. all those actions are done by her consent first but with your guidance

That's the exact reason that they shouldn't be able to make that decision by themselves.

it is a very good reason. but i think the reason i gave right after the point you bolded trumps that first reason (i underlined/bolded it)

It doesn't really trump it. It just says that the issue isn't black and white. Laws just happen to be written to be black and white.

i think it trumps it because we are talking about child safety. and which one makes children more safe? and i think the 2nd one does. kids seek advice from their parents all the time, so i think a lot of them will still go to their parents, we will just root out the children who wont go to their parents and make them safer as well.

But don't most other issues of child safety involve informing their parents? An exception can be given if they're abusive.

What you've said earlier with our bolded/bolded-underlined conversation is that because they're sometimes unable to think clearly they should be able to make this decision on their own.

(08-13-2013 02:38 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:32 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:11 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

Quote:at some point a little bit of logic needs to happen. is a 17 year old smart enough to know whats best for herself? i mean she's smart enough to drive, apply to a college, have a job......

An 18 y/o can get statutory rape charges for sleeping with a 17 y/o. Obviously the law doesn't think she's fit to know what's best for her.

im pretty sure thats been changed to make it legal (2 years in between rule)

and fyi a 17 year old can drive & apply for college but we deem them not capable of making their own decisions about their body

I got my license in 1994 when I was 15. What's your point about driving age?

well today its 16

but as for the 15 reference......can 15 year olds get pregnant?

15 to 17 is a huge difference. but the point i make here is that i dont want a 15 year old resorting to dangerous unnecessary means to get an abortion just so her parents wont find out. and that point right there is the basis for why i take this stance on this issue. the whole "can 17 yr olds make their own decisions" is a very minor point in the thick of things IMO.

if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

(08-13-2013 02:43 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:32 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:17 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  That's the exact reason that they shouldn't be able to make that decision by themselves.

it is a very good reason. but i think the reason i gave right after the point you bolded trumps that first reason (i underlined/bolded it)

It doesn't really trump it. It just says that the issue isn't black and white. Laws just happen to be written to be black and white.

i think it trumps it because we are talking about child safety. and which one makes children more safe? and i think the 2nd one does. kids seek advice from their parents all the time, so i think a lot of them will still go to their parents, we will just root out the children who wont go to their parents and make them safer as well.

But don't most other issues of child safety involve informing their parents? An exception can be given if they're abusive.

What you've said earlier with our bolded/bolded-underlined conversation is that because they're sometimes unable to think clearly they should be able to make this decision on their own.

parents love their children and will always make a decision for what they think is best for their children. however abortion is such a politically/religiously driven issue that i worry that some parents will let religion & politics factor into their decision and not whats best for their child.

while the part from our bolded/bolded underline discussion i had with someone else is still by far my biggest concern. this is also a concern of mine. its not because they are making a decision that goes against my political beliefs, that makes me worry but because those things CAN have an impact

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

(08-13-2013 02:56 PM)john01992 Wrote:  parents love their children and will always make a decision for what they think is best for their children.

You should have stopped right there.

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:56 PM)john01992 Wrote:  parents love their children and will always make a decision for what they think is best for their children.

You should have stopped right there.

in an ideal world yes......but unfortunately we have to face reality

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

(08-13-2013 03:02 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:56 PM)john01992 Wrote:  parents love their children and will always make a decision for what they think is best for their children.

You should have stopped right there.

in an ideal world yes......but unfortunately we have to face reality

Do you have children? It's a yes or no question.

(08-13-2013 03:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

yeah but this is such a hot button issue with religion & politics that this is the world we live in. not every parent is gonna be cool headed and open minded if their child tells them they are knocked up. im not saying you are a bad parent, but others are....

(08-13-2013 03:16 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

yeah but this is such a hot button issue with religion & politics that this is the world we live in. not every parent is gonna be cool headed and open minded if their child tells them they are knocked up. im not saying you are a bad parent, but others are....

So, you'd take this out of the hands of good parents because of the bad.

Quit dodging the question. Do you have children?

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:46 PM)john01992 Wrote:  if as a compromise that teens getting an abortion must first talk to an expert counselor so they understand the full ramifications of what they are doing before they can get an abortion im all for that type of law being implemented because its a smart no brainer decision. (as long as the law is designed to educate the teen not to delay the abortion process).

You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

Point is, the law has been the same from the time the first abortion was performed. It's not broken, so why fix it? And yes, I understand what you're saying and what you're posting, I've read them.

So the "most important decision" a 15 yo girl can make should be done without knowledge of the parent, hunh? How about somewhat less important decisions? Like they are caught drinking or shooting up? Should we know about that? It's her body afterall, why can't she do what she wants? Who are you to tell her she can't?

(08-13-2013 03:24 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:16 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:50 PM)Smaug Wrote:  You think a parent can't do this?

We've done it their entire lives to this point. Why are we suddenly unqualified?

dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

yeah but this is such a hot button issue with religion & politics that this is the world we live in. not every parent is gonna be cool headed and open minded if their child tells them they are knocked up. im not saying you are a bad parent, but others are....

So, you'd take this out of the hands of good parents because of the bad.

Quit dodging the question. Do you have children?

Since he won't answer you, no. We've asked the same thing over on the ESPN boards on similar threads.

(08-13-2013 03:37 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:24 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:16 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 02:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  dude....you really need to read what im posting. my point has never been "parents are not qualified" but that i dont want teens going through dangerous means like doing it themselves or a black market clinic to prevent their parents from knowing about it

I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

yeah but this is such a hot button issue with religion & politics that this is the world we live in. not every parent is gonna be cool headed and open minded if their child tells them they are knocked up. im not saying you are a bad parent, but others are....

So, you'd take this out of the hands of good parents because of the bad.

Quit dodging the question. Do you have children?

Since he won't answer you, no. We've asked the same thing over on the ESPN boards on similar threads.

Yeah, I did all my best parenting before I had children, too.

(08-13-2013 03:41 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:37 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:24 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:16 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  I don't want that, either. I want them to turn to me.

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs when people start advocating positions where children must necessarily distrust their parents.

yeah but this is such a hot button issue with religion & politics that this is the world we live in. not every parent is gonna be cool headed and open minded if their child tells them they are knocked up. im not saying you are a bad parent, but others are....

So, you'd take this out of the hands of good parents because of the bad.

Quit dodging the question. Do you have children?

Since he won't answer you, no. We've asked the same thing over on the ESPN boards on similar threads.

Yeah, I did all my best parenting before I had children, too.

Eggszackly. Well put.

saying you need to have children is pretty mind blowing imo. it reminds me of very old logic back in the day where only those who own property should be allowed to vote because they didnt have the proper experiences. and thats a joke. just because i dont have a kid doesnt mean i dont bring up valid point.

no one should ever be forced to have a kid, no one should ever let somebody else's life be radically altered because of another persons religious or political thoughts. the fact that you guys cant seem to understand that is mind blowing to me. the fact that you guys want to dismiss any new notion or think that someone whose younger than you cant have a valid opinion is pretty pathetic.

(08-13-2013 03:36 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  So the "most important decision" a 15 yo girl can make should be done without knowledge of the parent, hunh? How about somewhat less important decisions? Like they are caught drinking or shooting up? Should we know about that? It's her body afterall, why can't she do what she wants? Who are you to tell her she can't?

i already hit this point 20x on this thread regarding big decisions vs little decisions. so lemme just give a quick summary

-no decision is as big as having a baby which will have an effect on your daughter long after you die

-this is a parenting decision that can be driven by politics & religion and sometimes whats best for a teen gets overlooked. a parents political & religious ideals should not play a factor in this. im not saying every parent will do that, but a lot of them will

thats why this is a decision that someone should make for themselves.