(07-31-2013 02:08 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 12:26 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 12:14 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 10:04 AM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  tuesday/wednesday/thursday games <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Saturday games.

there's just no comparison. none. at all.

Saturday football is fun when people care about it.

I came to a JMU game back in 2001, before all the hype over football, and while the game was on Saturday, no one cared. If at the end of the day we stay CAA, people are going to slowly not care about going as much. Its won't be because they dont love JMU any less but its hard to buy into a water downed FCS product.

I am all about not playing during the week but I will take the OCCASIONAL weekday game (lets not be over dramatic and pretend like week day games become the norm) vs. staying in the CAA and watch our attendance numbers slowly drop to around sub-12,000 fans.

Talk about being overdramatic. The only way JMU's attendance drops to under 12k fans is if JMU turned in multiple 0 to 4 win seasons in row.

JMU could stay in IAA and if were 7+ wins every season and making the playoffs
every season attendance would stay above 20k.

Completely agree. Winning draws the fans, regardless of classification, and the notion that a winning JMU team that remained in FCS would see attendance atrophy to sub 12k is frankly, stupid.

Yep. There's apparently a lot of stupid going on around here.

(07-31-2013 12:43 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 12:26 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 12:14 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 10:04 AM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  tuesday/wednesday/thursday games <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Saturday games.

there's just no comparison. none. at all.

Saturday football is fun when people care about it.

I came to a JMU game back in 2001, before all the hype over football, and while the game was on Saturday, no one cared. If at the end of the day we stay CAA, people are going to slowly not care about going as much. Its won't be because they dont love JMU any less but its hard to buy into a water downed FCS product.

I am all about not playing during the week but I will take the OCCASIONAL weekday game (lets not be over dramatic and pretend like week day games become the norm) vs. staying in the CAA and watch our attendance numbers slowly drop to around sub-12,000 fans.

Talk about being overdramatic. The only way JMU's attendance drops to under 12k fans is if JMU turned in multiple 0 to 4 win seasons in row.

JMU could stay in IAA and if were 7+ wins every season and making the playoffs
every season attendance would stay above 20k.

I'm with Dolley, staying in the CAA = 11,000 - 12,000 average pumped up by the fish in a barrel parents-weekend. The fcs model very rarely supports 20,000+ sans being in the middle of nowhere and you're literally the only game in town. In addition, the 20,000 have to be locals.... too many JMU fans travel to games for the only game in town variable to work.

what about $3 seats to games...?

http://www.jmusports.com/ViewArticle.dbm...=208885860

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Sorry, my assumption was based on the other 97% of FCS schools that are averaging below 20,000 fans.

Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

The more FBS gets watered down with these schools moving up, the even less FCS schools will be respected nationally. On top of that, we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

Maybe 12,000 was to low (maybe it wasn't) but it won't be long until we are backing to averaging under 15k if we stay in the CAA.

This is the exact frightening parallel that came to mind for me as well.

Frustration can lead to apathy and that can be hard as hell to overcome.

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  ... we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

JMU is in a better position than Liberty to be the fourth FBS team. Liberty has announced their FBS intentions but no one, repeat, no one, wants a part of them. True, we have not announced but there has been too much chatter the last month that would suggest that we are joining the FBS ranks:

Recruiting coaches twitters
SB holding off on expanding to wait for the right program
Troy State President's comments regarding JMU as the plum
C-USA visit
TY's media day rant
MM's comment
ESPN
Virginia Pilot
Daily News Record
Charlotte game
Getting recruits from Georgia
Ghost of Terry Holland's comments "the ink is dry and deal is done" - ha

Something's happening

Awesome. $3.00 ticket giveaways is certainly no indication of attendance issues, right? Yes, a whole lot of stupid going on.

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Sorry, my assumption was based on the other 97% of FCS schools that are averaging below 20,000 fans.

Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

The more FBS gets watered down with these schools moving up, the even less FCS schools will be respected nationally. On top of that, we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

Maybe 12,000 was to low (maybe it wasn't) but it won't be long until we are backing to averaging under 15k if we stay in the CAA.

Oh BS.

Neither I-A not I-AA is getting watered down. In fact, the opposite has happened.

1990 # of I-A teams: about 105 x 95 schollies each = about 10k schollies

2015 # of I-A teams: about 129 x 85 schollies each = about 11k schollies.

According to US Census, US population 1990 about 249 million, and estimated in 2015 to be about 321 million.

So in the last 25 years the # of I-A schollies will have increased only about 10%, while the population will have increased close to 30%.

There would need to be an additional 20+ I-A teams just to keep up with population growth over the last 25 years.

Similar exists at the I-AA level

JMU needs to and will move up, but its not because of the fallacy that the product is being watered down at either level.

(07-31-2013 04:06 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Sorry, my assumption was based on the other 97% of FCS schools that are averaging below 20,000 fans.

Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

The more FBS gets watered down with these schools moving up, the even less FCS schools will be respected nationally. On top of that, we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

Maybe 12,000 was to low (maybe it wasn't) but it won't be long until we are backing to averaging under 15k if we stay in the CAA.

Oh BS.

Neither I-A not I-AA is getting watered down. In fact, the opposite has happened.

1990 # of I-A teams: about 105 x 95 schollies each = about 10k schollies

2015 # of I-A teams: about 129 x 85 schollies each = about 11k schollies.

According to US Census, US population 1990 about 249 million, and estimated in 2015 to be about 321 million.

So in the last 25 years the # of I-A schollies will have increased only about 10%, while the population will have increased close to 30%.

There would need to be an additional 20+ I-A teams just to keep up with population growth over the last 25 years.

Similar exists at the I-AA level

JMU needs to and will move up, but its not because of the fallacy that the product is being watered down at either level.

Thank you for proving my point. I didnt have the numbers but appreciate you providing them.

Where there was once 105 FBS programs that were perceived as "better" than JMU 20 years ago, there are now 129 FBS perceived better than us. Trust me, I will be the first to argue that a top 10 FCS program can beat up on the bottom half of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA. But all that matters is there are now 129 teams that are viewed as superior programs to JMU.

I love JMU, will always go to JMU games, will try and always buy season tickets, and will always be a Duke Club donor. The reality is me, and the people on this message board, are not the norm.

With an growing apathetic fan base, lack in trust in our leadership, peers moving to other conferences, and technology making it easier to follow your favorite teams without seeing them in person, are all an equation to start seeing crowds half of what BFS can hold if JMU decides to continue to compete at the FCS level.

The people who think we'll average 20,000+ in FCS are optimistic, misguided, and overconfident. Had there not been an exodus of top East Coast FCS schools (sans Ga St.), I could see an alignment where 20,000+ crowds would be the average. However, that boat has sailed...

Fact is, in 2012, we averaged roughly 10% less than in 2011. Both seasons were ROUGHLY identical in terms of records with relatively similar home opponents (2011 featured 3 straight home games...usually an attendance drain). If we see another double digit decline in attendance, I would love to hear some reasons why. My take is that excitement among the "on the fence" fans has declined.

(07-31-2013 04:16 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 04:06 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Sorry, my assumption was based on the other 97% of FCS schools that are averaging below 20,000 fans.

Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

The more FBS gets watered down with these schools moving up, the even less FCS schools will be respected nationally. On top of that, we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

Maybe 12,000 was to low (maybe it wasn't) but it won't be long until we are backing to averaging under 15k if we stay in the CAA.

Oh BS.

Neither I-A not I-AA is getting watered down. In fact, the opposite has happened.

1990 # of I-A teams: about 105 x 95 schollies each = about 10k schollies

2015 # of I-A teams: about 129 x 85 schollies each = about 11k schollies.

According to US Census, US population 1990 about 249 million, and estimated in 2015 to be about 321 million.

So in the last 25 years the # of I-A schollies will have increased only about 10%, while the population will have increased close to 30%.

There would need to be an additional 20+ I-A teams just to keep up with population growth over the last 25 years.

Similar exists at the I-AA level

JMU needs to and will move up, but its not because of the fallacy that the product is being watered down at either level.

Thank you for proving my point. I didnt have the numbers but appreciate you providing them.

Where there was once 105 FBS programs that were perceived as "better" than JMU 20 years ago, there are now 129 FBS perceived better than us. Trust me, I will be the first to argue that a top 10 FCS program can beat up on the bottom half of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA. But all that matters is there are now 129 teams that are viewed as superior programs to JMU.

I love JMU, will always go to JMU games, will try and always buy season tickets, and will always be a Duke Club donor. The reality is me, and the people on this message board, are not the norm.

With an growing apathetic fan base, lack in trust in our leadership, peers moving to other conferences, and technology making it easier to follow your favorite teams without seeing them in person, are all an equation to start seeing crowds half of what BFS can hold if JMU decides to continue to compete at the FCS level.

Perception isn't always reality.

(07-31-2013 03:46 PM)JMU Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  ... we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

JMU is in a better position than Liberty to be the fourth FBS team. Liberty has announced their FBS intentions but no one, repeat, no one, wants a part of them. True, we have not announced but there has been too much chatter the last month that would suggest that we are joining the FBS ranks:

Recruiting coaches twitters
SB holding off on expanding to wait for the right program
Troy State President's comments regarding JMU as the plum
C-USA visit
TY's media day rant
MM's comment
ESPN
Virginia Pilot
Daily News Record
Charlotte game
Getting recruits from Georgia
Ghost of Terry Holland's comments "the ink is dry and deal is done" - ha

Something's happening

you sir just perfectly summarize the last month or so of smoke! We should sticky this.

[/quote]

Talk about being overdramatic. The only way JMU's attendance drops to under 12k fans is if JMU turned in multiple 0 to 4 win seasons in row.

JMU could stay in IAA and if were 7+ wins every season and making the playoffs
every season attendance would stay above 20k.
[/quote]

Completely agree. Winning draws the fans, regardless of classification, and the notion that a winning JMU team that remained in FCS would see attendance atrophy to sub 12k is frankly, stupid.
[/quote]

I just looked up the Mount Union Raiders, 11 NCs and a winning percentage that is top in the nation. Largest crowd in history of program, 8,900. They must have allowed people to stand on the track b/c their stadium is about 25 seats tall between the 30 yard lines. Average attendance not listed...best not to highlight disinterest...

Who you play matters, if you think remaining fcs wont cause a huge hit in attendance you're living in denial.

If you think it is a 50% hit... then there is a lot of denial going around.

New Hampshire and Villanova are two of the winningest FCS programs in one of the top FCS conferences in the country.

And I find it ironic that BDK highlighted my word perceived but clearly didn't continue reading to the next sentence where I admit that a top level FCS team can compete with the bottom half of CUSA, MAC, and Sun Belt. Unfortunately, Joe Alumni and John Doe College Football Fan still view the Akrons of the world above JMU simply because of the perception FCS carries. If we expect to fill BFS in the coming years, it won't happen without a move up to FBS.

(07-31-2013 04:50 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  I just looked up the Mount Union Raiders, 11 NCs and a winning percentage that is top in the nation. Largest crowd in history of program, 8,900. They must have allowed people to stand on the track b/c their stadium is about 25 seats tall between the 30 yard lines. Average attendance not listed...best not to highlight disinterest...

Who you play matters, if you think remaining fcs wont cause a huge hit in attendance you're living in denial.

Making a comparison with a small, private, non scholly Div III with 2200 undergrads..

And you need to learn quote function (see your post above). Had to go back and edit to fix the quotes so you can tell who is quoting who and what...

(07-31-2013 05:01 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  New Hampshire and Villanova are two of the winningest FCS programs in one of the top FCS conferences in the country.

And I find it ironic that BDK highlighted my word perceived but clearly didn't continue reading to the next sentence where I admit that a top level FCS team can compete with the bottom half of CUSA, MAC, and Sun Belt. Unfortunately, Joe Alumni and John Doe College Football Fan still view the Akrons of the world above JMU simply because of the perception FCS carries. If we expect to fill BFS in the coming years, it won't happen without a move up to FBS.

-Nova is a PRIVATE, CATHOLIC Univ with 10k students with an old stadium.

-NH is a 12k student hockey school in New England where HS and college football aren't big, with what is probably the worst stadium in the CAA.

Why do people keep making apples to oranges comparisons?

App State, Montana, and UD are more apt comparisons to JMU than UNH and Villanova.

ASU was above 20k for the last 6 seasons in I-AA, and would have continued above 20k if they hadn't announced a move up.

Montana has been over 20k for 15? years.

UD was over 20k for several decades. In 2010 avg over 20k for the regular season (under 18k including 3 playoff games). Their last 2 seasons (7-4 & 6-5) they have avg 19k and 18.5k, and their fans will tell you they were under 20k because of some ridiculous pricing policies. They're less likely to move up than JMU, or move up as soon, and you don't here any of their fans making delusional statements of "If we don't move up, attendance is going to drop to 12k."

(07-31-2013 04:59 PM)mistrhanky Wrote:  If you think it is a 50% hit... then there is a lot of denial going around.

+1

(07-31-2013 12:26 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  The only way JMU's attendance drops to under 12k fans is if JMU turned in multiple 0 to 4 win seasons in row.

JMU could stay in IAA and if were 7+ wins every season and making the playoffs every season attendance would stay above 20k.

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

And what did basketball due for a # of seasons, including 3-4 straight, that cut their attendance in half? Had a winning percentage that would be equivalent to football having 3-4 seasons in a row with records of 2-9 to 3-8.

Now I'm not a basketball guy, so someone who is correct me if I'm wrong but if bball had coninued to have winning seasons and contended for the CAA title every season during the 2000s they wouldn't have had much if any drop in attendance. Just like if football continues to 7+win seasons and makes a 24 team playoff every season, they won't have much, if any drop in attendance below 20k.

(07-31-2013 03:34 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Sorry, my assumption was based on the other 97% of FCS schools that are averaging below 20,000 fans.

Some of you sound like JMU basketball fans in the 80's and 90's scoffing at anyone that would ever dare suggest JMU basketball would only average 2-3k fans a game.

The more FBS gets watered down with these schools moving up, the even less FCS schools will be respected nationally. On top of that, we now have 3 FBS schools (soon to be 4 with Liberty) competing for time in the media spot light.

Maybe 12,000 was to low (maybe it wasn't) but it won't be long until we are backing to averaging under 15k if we stay in the CAA.

The assumption you made is based on schools that have never hit 20,000, never will hit it, and don't even have the capacity for it. The only schools you should make comparisons to are schools like app state and Montana that have maintained FBS sized crowds for years because of great fan bases and continued success in FCS. We lost basketball fans because we lost basketball games, and for no other reason. I would like to see us make a change, but to say we will lose half our fans if we continue to win in our conference is crazy, and I don't think you would be able to find an example of this happening anywhere.

DD, to answer your question I have been paying closer attention over the last couple of seasons to these conferences. I really enjoy attending away games, and have been studying up on some of the towns these schools are in for potential future trips. I would love for fans as a whole to be able to roll right into a new conference and immediately step it up just like we expect our team to do. By this I mean be able to have educated discussions about the other teams, and of course travel well.