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If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #41
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Wild idea time. Take Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and West Virginia. With that lineup to 18 it is only a matter of time before North Carolina and Virginia want in on the money and the comradeship of other flagship schools. The SEC stands at 20. Now that would be one heck of a conference for which to shoot. If you are going to dream, dream big.
07-09-2013 08:08 PM
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Gamecock Offline
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Post: #42
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
West Virginia and VT are the two fits for me in an ideal world.

If we are sticking with a BIG 12 theme, OU and WVU
07-09-2013 10:21 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #43
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-09-2013 10:21 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  West Virginia and VT are the two fits for me in an ideal world.

If we are sticking with a BIG 12 theme, OU and WVU

Either set is a winner.
07-09-2013 10:22 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #44
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-09-2013 06:13 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 06:21 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 03:10 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-06-2013 10:21 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  I would add Oklahoma for sure. But I would add Cincinnati before I added anyone else. The potential market is just to great to pass up.

Cincinnati?? You are joking, right?
No. I'm not joking at all. Cincy would be a great addition to the east division.

Maybe on NCAA "create your own conference" it is. The SEC will add a flagship school when it does expand again...not a city school (and there are certainly larger markets than Cincinnati) that will always be second fiddle in-state playing in an FCS stadium. Some combination of West Virginia, Va Tech, a North Carolina program or a Kansas program. Cinci just ain't happening my friend...and you may be the 1st SEC poster I have ever seen actually support the notion. Gross.
Your missing the point. I'm not saying we should take Cincy over any program from North Carolina or Virginia. I would however take them over West Virginia. Cincinnati isn't just a city school. They happen to be the second largest university in the state of Ohio.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._of_Cincinnati) Which happens to be the sixth largest state and has three top 50 media markets.(17,32,and 34) With the new network coming. Getting coverage in those markets would mean a great deal to a network. That's why I keep pointing at Cincy.
07-09-2013 10:50 PM
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USAFMEDIC Offline
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Post: #45
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-09-2013 04:29 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-09-2013 11:40 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 11:14 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  I have to stray from the Kansas choice. They aren't a very good football program. Maybe you are looking at it from a different angle.

Some options:

The state of Oklahoma is southern and OU would be a good cultural fit. Oklahoma also belongs in a conference with Alabama. An elite program that would be a great addition to the already elite conference. A border war with Arkansas would be epic.

Oklahoma State would probably have to come along. Their academics would be an issue. Another great rival for Arkansas

Texas. Sooner or later the SEC is going to have to lure Texas or the Pac 12 will. Snagging a team like Oklahoma might start that process. They are stubborn and want to run the show.

Miami to expand into the south Florida Market. Cons. Violation prone.

North Carolina. Cultural fit and expansion into the Atlantic coast market

I do agree with your points about the PAC 12. Eventually they have to deal with the Big XII schools. They have no other options that meets their requirements. If the SEC doesn't grab a couple, the PAC 12 or B1G will. I do not believe the Sooners fit the PAC 12 liberal culture. I also believe their goal is not to play Northern schools all year, every year. The only upside is playing their old rival Nebraska again. I still believe they would be a natural fit for the SEC.

They would have their game against Nebraska. They would maintain ties to Kansas. The Head Coaches of Oklahoma and Iowa have history together as was talked about constantly for their Bowl Game.

The Admin of Oklahoma would absolutely push Oklahoma towards the Big Ten instead of the SEC. They would probably face some blowback on that from fans and some alumni but so did President Loh of Maryland. As long as Oklahoma can maintain it's key rivalries of Texas and Oklahoma State, then it would be just fine.

They most certainly would have a better chance to win or finish strongly in the Big Ten and the Big Ten will Never be cut out of the National Picture. Oklahoma could definitely take advantage of that.

Sure there might be some fan support for an SEC move instead but there is no way that the persons making the decisions would choose the SEC over the B1G, in my opinion.
Their mistake. Okie in the B1G is the true fish out of water.....
07-10-2013 12:18 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-09-2013 08:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Wild idea time. Take Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and West Virginia. With that lineup to 18 it is only a matter of time before North Carolina and Virginia want in on the money and the comradeship of other flagship schools. The SEC stands at 20. Now that would be one heck of a conference for which to shoot. If you are going to dream, dream big.

And how exactly do you get Texas away from Tech, TCU and Baylor? To say nothing of whether or not there is actual support for the Longhorns in the SEC West.

It's not a knock on your dream as I love trying to solve these little Gordian knots myself. And while I could see ESPN trying to force Texas on the SEC, I'm just not sure how such a move goes over at the state capital.

Plus, imagine if you will a weekend in Destin, Texas is now in the SEC and at one of the Trustee Meetings a Longhorn rep says, "Nice place you've got here, but it could use a little redecorating. For example, wouldn't it be great if the conference headquarters and Championship Game were moved to Dallas..."
07-10-2013 07:09 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-09-2013 10:50 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  
(07-09-2013 06:13 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 06:21 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  
(07-08-2013 03:10 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-06-2013 10:21 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  I would add Oklahoma for sure. But I would add Cincinnati before I added anyone else. The potential market is just to great to pass up.

Cincinnati?? You are joking, right?
No. I'm not joking at all. Cincy would be a great addition to the east division.

Maybe on NCAA "create your own conference" it is. The SEC will add a flagship school when it does expand again...not a city school (and there are certainly larger markets than Cincinnati) that will always be second fiddle in-state playing in an FCS stadium. Some combination of West Virginia, Va Tech, a North Carolina program or a Kansas program. Cinci just ain't happening my friend...and you may be the 1st SEC poster I have ever seen actually support the notion. Gross.
Your missing the point. I'm not saying we should take Cincy over any program from North Carolina or Virginia. I would however take them over West Virginia. Cincinnati isn't just a city school. They happen to be the second largest university in the state of Ohio.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._of_Cincinnati) Which happens to be the sixth largest state and has three top 50 media markets.(17,32,and 34) With the new network coming. Getting coverage in those markets would mean a great deal to a network. That's why I keep pointing at Cincy.

But I'm not sure those stats make Cincy a better pick than WVU. The B12 had their pick of Ohio Valley schools and chose the Eer's over the other two. As the B12's existence is predicated on Fox and ESPN's TV crack deal, the networks clearly felt there was more value in the Mountaineers and the Cards and the Bearcats.
07-10-2013 07:12 AM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #48
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
That's just it Van,

Realignment has made OSU and TTU (and TCU and BU) MORE dependent on their big brothers, not less.

The idea that OU or UT could ditch them because another power conference would pick them up is wishful thinking at best. None of the power conferences want them without big brother and most arent even willing to take little brother to get big brother.

The PAC is the only power conference willing to take the 4 team combo of UT/TT/OU/OSU that satisfies all the legislators involved. That's just reality and saying things like "UT can ditch TTU because the PAC will take TTU" is wishful thinking to make a scenario work.

In 10 years, when the GOR runs out, UT has a choice to make: move west with their entourage of OU, OSU and TT or stay put...that's really it.
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 08:48 AM by 10thMountain.)
07-10-2013 08:46 AM
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LSUtah Offline
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Post: #49
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 08:46 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  That's just it Van,

Realignment has made OSU and TTU (and TCU and BU) MORE dependent on their big brothers, not less.

The idea that OU or UT could ditch them because another power conference would pick them up is wishful thinking at best. None of the power conferences want them without big brother and most arent even willing to take little brother to get big brother.

The PAC is the only power conference willing to take the 4 team combo of UT/TT/OU/OSU that satisfies all the legislators involved. That's just reality and saying things like "UT can ditch TTU because the PAC will take TTU" is wishful thinking to make a scenario work.

In 10 years, when the GOR runs out, UT has a choice to make: move west with their entourage of OU, OSU and TT or stay put...that's really it.

Agree completely. We will probably see little in the way of conference realignment until that day happens, and my bet is that there is a good chance the "Texoma 4" are eventually part of a PAC-16. An eastern division anchored by TEXAS/USC and a western division anchored by USC/OREGON? Good grief...that is a very good product right there.

At that point WVU and most likely Kansas State to the SEC (unless an unlikely NC or VA school falls out of the ACC).

Sorry hayhiggs, but Cinci will not be invited to the party for all the reasons outlined by vandiver. The reality is there are more Ohio State fans in Cincy than Bearcat fans (just like there are more TEXAS and TAMU fans in Dallas than TCU fans). It's a game of flagships for the B1G, PAC and SEC. The Big12 remaining viable is Cincy's only hope...maybe ACC if Cincy goes on a mad run.
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 09:57 AM by LSUtah.)
07-10-2013 09:50 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #50
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 07:09 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(07-09-2013 08:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Wild idea time. Take Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and West Virginia. With that lineup to 18 it is only a matter of time before North Carolina and Virginia want in on the money and the comradeship of other flagship schools. The SEC stands at 20. Now that would be one heck of a conference for which to shoot. If you are going to dream, dream big.

And how exactly do you get Texas away from Tech, TCU and Baylor? To say nothing of whether or not there is actual support for the Longhorns in the SEC West.

It's not a knock on your dream as I love trying to solve these little Gordian knots myself. And while I could see ESPN trying to force Texas on the SEC, I'm just not sure how such a move goes over at the state capital.

Plus, imagine if you will a weekend in Destin, Texas is now in the SEC and at one of the Trustee Meetings a Longhorn rep says, "Nice place you've got here, but it could use a little redecorating. For example, wouldn't it be great if the conference headquarters and Championship Game were moved to Dallas..."

Well, we all know how Alexander solved that knot issue. I would love to do the same and simply see where all the pieces of the Big 12 fell. Like I said a wild idea. I think we might wind up more with what LSUtah is predicting and if we get lucky maybe Oklahoma & WVU or even Oklahoma State and WVU. If one is in the PAC I doubt the legislature would care if the other was in the SEC but if it was Kansas State and West Virginia we'd still make money, have 16, and an easier schedule.

We agree on on the idea of three larger divisions though and for that reason and new markets, and travel issues, I would like to see us add 4 and stop.

But in all the riddle solving everyone needs to keep in mind that the real struggle will be between what the fans of these schools want and what the network executives think will bring a semblance of balance. I have no doubt but what some execs (not necessarily those at ESPN) would love the PAC to become more nationally relevant with the addition of Texas and Oklahoma. Texas fans might be able to handle that transition, but I'm not so sure the Oklahoma fans will. Either way it will be nice when this train wreck's dust settles and order can be restored.
07-10-2013 10:10 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #51
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Let's keep in mind a few other things as well. The investment levels of Universities into their sports have natural cutoffs at 60, around 67, and again at 71. 3 regional conferences of 20 was a corporate think tank idea for a while. It was thought to be a way of energizing all three regions (North Midwest & Northeast), (Southeast), (Southwest & West) and still leaving a wildcard in the mix which could be utilized as a reward to a great team that stood to be left out of the mix. It could also be used to pull in a national crowd if one of the teams from a region championship had poor national following. Texas and North Carolina rendered that moot with refusals to take temptations to change.

The 4 x 16 model is the simplest of all to work whether it is a four team playoff or an eight team playoff. It moves us closer to a conference champions format which currently has been compromised away in order to facilitate change, but which, once consolidation has taken us to a P4 setup, will naturally creep back into the picture. Which by the way may be one reason the SEC has been content not to poach the ACC and to partner with the Big 12. That keeps multiple slots open for us in a 4 team playoff. If we have just 4 conferences Slive knows where this ends and it means each conference gets one slot.

In the end I believe the TV money will force the new structure upon all of us and they will get what they want. And what they want is a guarantee that each region of the country will have a dog in the hunt up until the semifinals. This optimizes their advertising revenue by keeping the rates higher in all regions from the start of the season up until the next to last week of it. Playing only other FBS schools also helps to eliminate duds from schedules.

While 64 teams would satisfy most of the top schools as far as exclusivity the networks will eventually figure out that 72 would bring in some markets that were left uncovered, not for the country, but for the regions. They are going to want overlap on the regional boundaries because having such guarantees that there is more than normal interest for 2 regions should an overlap school make the playoffs. It is for this reason that I believe we may look for 18 team models for 4 conferences at some point. Plus that format allows for a wildcard within each conference championship format (which is more insurance for TV execs that large fan bases that might otherwise have been excluded on a given year will stay energized). This line of thinking permeates professional sports and will be applied in collegiate sports once network control is established.

At that point, East Carolina and Cincinnati make sense as shared boundary teams. Both add markets and more importantly viewers to the mix. Viewers who might, if their teams are eliminated from even participating in the FBS, have opted not to watch. Now multiply their counterparts across all 4 regions and you can see how statistically this could be relevant in tying in two different regions in interest over 1 team. A plus for viewership.

If the PAC doesn't get Texas then TCU becomes a boundary overlap team. Louisville is such a team (the best one out there) for the ACC. Notre Dame even as a hybrid is a big time overlap addition. Cincinnati could work for the ACC or SEC. Look at what new markets were all about guys. They were about blurring regional lines. That's why Missouri and Texas A&M are terrific additions for the SEC. A&M puts us into the Southwest demographic and Missouri puts us into the Midwest demographic. That's why we wanted North Carolina and Virginia (and in a 3 x 20 model would have gotten them). The fact that this is market driven realignment (not a total cultural fit realignment) is how we know who is driving it. What is transpiring may help our conferences, but that is purely ancillary to helping the market management of the networks. I don't have a crystal ball, but I do analyze this mess from a business model. Whatever optimizes the ability of the networks to maximize viewers the longest and in the greatest number is what will transpire eventually. Which specific teams go where is not as relevant to the networks so much as the apparent balance of access to the playoffs for the regions. But maximizing potential viewership by blurring the edges of the boundaries are (hence the Texahoma idea). Also, avoiding hassles in public perception is important to get the viewers to buy in. Which is another reason I think we eventually go to an 18 team model.

At 64 you have about a dozen teams that could band together to form a class action suit. Realistically 7 of those teams would have a decent argument against exclusion versus the bottom third of those who would get in because their situations financially would not be too dissimilar. Take in those 7 and 1 more and now you are down to 4 schools who live essentially beyond the investment break at 71. Less outrage, more reasonable definition, and I think better for the top 64. Better because in a system that plays only against itself we need more teams that may gravitate toward the bottom of the new pool if we are to keep parity from destroying the records at the top.

So to my way of thinking the SEC, Big 10, ACC, and PAC need to be thinking in terms of what 18 they want rather than what 16. The ones that exercise their strategies to 18 will be the happiest with the results. And, I might add that a strategy to 18 will not be the same as a strategy to 16. Different divisional alignments would be at stake.
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 11:36 AM by JRsec.)
07-10-2013 10:57 AM
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LSUtah Offline
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Post: #52
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Good points JRsec. Ultimately I agree/like the idea of a 4 x 18 "P4", which would make for a natural playoff format. I think your point on engaging the entire country/advertisers for the course of an entire college football cannot be overstated...great point. Assuming the Big12 is disbanded and all 10 teams land in conferences (which they would), that only leaves 5 spots open to get to 72 (assuming ND joins ACC full-time). In that event I see plenty of other options happening for the SEC to get to 18 before Cincy gets the call, which would probably include at least 2-3 Big12 programs (WVU for sure, KS State as KU will go B1G, and maybe Baylor and/or TCU). ECU would likely get an invite before Cincy...their seat at the table will be in the ACC.
07-10-2013 12:13 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #53
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 12:13 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Good points JRsec. Ultimately I agree/like the idea of a 4 x 18 "P4", which would make for a natural playoff format. I think your point on engaging the entire country/advertisers for the course of an entire college football cannot be overstated...great point. Assuming the Big12 is disbanded and all 10 teams land in conferences (which they would), that only leaves 5 spots open to get to 72 (assuming ND joins ACC full-time). In that event I see plenty of other options happening for the SEC to get to 18 before Cincy gets the call, which would probably include at least 2-3 Big12 programs (WVU for sure, KS State as KU will go B1G, and maybe Baylor and/or TCU). ECU would likely get an invite before Cincy...their seat at the table will be in the ACC.
Thanks. I think West Virginia would be either the first or second pick to 16 depending on the other team. Kansas State would deliver a state, but not a new demographic as Missouri did. West Virginia is a new demographic for the SEC and a natural extension to Kentucky. I look at #15 being Oklahoma if they wanted to come because they do still have national brand cache. East Carolina is a tougher call to make and certainly would not be considered until we get into the 18th spot selection. At that time if we haven't worked an arrangement for N.C. State or Virginia Tech and I don't foresee that as a possibility then for that market we might consider them.

At 18 I think because the networks will be trying to balance conferences that West Virginia will be our #15 and then a Kansas State or Oklahoma State would be #16. That fills in the Westward expansion. Baylor/TCU would be a solidification of the Texas market with a DFW presence, but only if we didn't add both an Oklahoma and Kansas team. Then we do get down to cases don't we. I wouldn't even rule out USF as a solidification of the South Florida market. We don't have a presence in the Southern end of Florida and we don't have one really on the Gulf Coast. Now no doubt Florida carries the whole state by itself, but if you are weighing options at 18 and your choice are E.C.U. (new market, good attendance, poor academics) or South Florida (emphasis in an existing market, good attendance, improving academics) or Central Florida (emphasis in an existing market, good attendance, improving academics, but more of a commuter school) or Cincinnati (new state with partial carriage, good attendance, slightly better academics than other options, not culturally a fit) who would you pick? I'd still take the Pirates to get into North Carolina, but USF has some significant academic ties to some SEC schools and are making strides in their research funding. I think that might be a tossup.
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 01:23 PM by JRsec.)
07-10-2013 01:20 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
JR,

You've mentioned how devastating Auburn in the West has been, since they essentially marketed themselves as Goergia's second SEC school prior to '92. Will schools like Auburn and UT survive if they are placed in the SEC Central and effectively cut off from FL and GA with regard to recruiting?
07-10-2013 01:57 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 01:57 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  JR,

You've mentioned how devastating Auburn in the West has been, since they essentially marketed themselves as Goergia's second SEC school prior to '92. Will schools like Auburn and UT survive if they are placed in the SEC Central and effectively cut off from FL and GA with regard to recruiting?

They will be no worse off than they are now and at least Tennessee would return to the annual schedule. Personally if we ever go to 16 or more teams I think a 10 game conference schedule will emerge with the regular rotation as described in the 9 game schedule and 1 permanent rival as a compromise. Even if that doesn't work out as long as Georgia and Florida are not overlapping the same year's rotation then 4 out of six years Auburn will be playing one of them. Not ideal, but for the sake of regional divisions and better travel for away games for fans it will need to be done. Auburn recruited Tennessee well prior to losing the Vols annually. Your question, however, is very valid. How do you think it would affect Tennessee's recruiting, or their game with Kentucky?
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 02:05 PM by JRsec.)
07-10-2013 02:04 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #56
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
3x 18 would be interesting but I could see 4 x 18 happening (with the ACC surviving though more as a confederacy of 3 smaller sub regions rather than as a super regional conference.

here's how I see it:

PAC

Oregon
Oregon State
Washington
Washington State
California
Stanford

USC
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Nevada
UNLV

Colorado
Utah
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Texas
Texas Tech

SEC

Virginia Tech
West Virginia
North Carolina State
Kentucky
Tennessee
Vanderbilt

Florida
Georgia
Alabama
Auburn
Ole Miss
Miss State

Texas A&M
TCU
Louisiana State
Arkansas
Missouri
Kansas

B1G

Nebraska
Iowa
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Northwestern
Illinois

Purdue
Indiana
Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Notre Dame

Rutgers
Penn State
Maryland
Virginia
North Carolina
Duke

ACC
Connecticut
Syracuse
Pitt
Cincinnati
Boston College
Temple

Louisville
Wake Forest
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Miami
Florida State

Iowa State
Memphis
Baylor
SMU
Tulane
Kansas State
07-10-2013 03:10 PM
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LSU04_08 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
Definitely, DEFINITELY, should take Texas and OU from the Big 12... That would complete the SEC.
07-10-2013 03:14 PM
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LSUtah Offline
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Post: #58
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 03:14 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Definitely, DEFINITELY, should take Texas and OU from the Big 12... That would complete the SEC.



Absolutely every SEC fan would love to see this happen! In reality I think we will see something a little less sexy...
07-10-2013 03:21 PM
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LSU04_08 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 03:21 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-10-2013 03:14 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Definitely, DEFINITELY, should take Texas and OU from the Big 12... That would complete the SEC.



Absolutely every SEC fan would love to see this happen! In reality I think we will see something a little less sexy...

Hell, I'd even take TCU, TTU, or OkSt... But if they want to make it elite, they'd add Texas and OU...
07-10-2013 03:25 PM
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RE: If the SEC did expand again and did so from the Big 12 who should we take and why?
(07-10-2013 03:21 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  
(07-10-2013 03:14 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Definitely, DEFINITELY, should take Texas and OU from the Big 12... That would complete the SEC.



Absolutely every SEC fan would love to see this happen! In reality I think we will see something a little less sexy...
I think a lot of SEC fans would not like to see Texas...
07-10-2013 06:28 PM
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