Basketball in Manhattan or Brooklyn or other places too painful to mention........

http://www.news-record.com/blogs/hardin_...mode=story

I think that continued Northern expansion and a battle royale against the Big Ten for New York and the rest of the Northeast may be the name of the game.

I also think that someday soon, UConn, Navy and/or perhaps Cincinnati may be members of the ACC. Despite what has been said, I don't think that ACC expansion is over.

The dog and pony show in New York City was put on for a reason. Basketball games being played there is part of the plan, I suppose.

I think that the game is afoot......

The handwriting is on the wall, Daniel

Cincinnati does nothing in terms of NYC. Nobody outside of Cincinnati cares about them. I've lived in NW and NE Ohio and it's rare to see anything besides Ohio State or local school support. It's a good school, but seriously? No to Cincinnati, they're where they belong and I'd rather take UConn or even Temple before them if we HAD to expand.

Btw, to the people who diss WF and Duke: compare their stadium sizes to Cincy.

That will be all.

I said:

" UConn, Navy and/or perhaps Cincinnati".

My point is that a war (declared/undeclared) has broken out between the ACC and the Big Ten for the Northeast (in particular NYC).

Who will win? What will it take to win? Does the ACC want to win?

(07-02-2013 03:34 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I said:

" UConn, Navy and/or perhaps Cincinnati".

My point is that a war (declared/undeclared) has broken out between the ACC and the Big Ten for the Northeast (in particular NYC).

Who will win? What will it take to win? Does the ACC want to win?

Honest question...what would you win?

If you're going to start an ACC Network and you are positioning yourself to be picked up in the NYC/Northeast area, I get it an I'm all for it.

But it's not entirely clear what the B1G and ACC are fighting for. It's an area that doesn't give two flips about college football (outside ND maybe), which drives vastly disproportionate revenue.

The NY area schools were virtually the last picked on the playground. The previous conference anchored in that region imploded.

I'm not against making a move on NYC, but I hope it's a part of plan, particularly financially, that I've yet to see.

I'm actually very slightly intrigued by a UConn/Cinci expansion only as a way out of this horrid scheduling setup, but as a gambit to "solidify" the Northeast? I don't get it. It's like two guys in the desert stabbing at each other in a battle to control an empty well.

I hope there's a plan there, a money plan, but taking in further expansion is just too far to go with it.

The ACC really could have done a lot more yesterday to emphasize its existing commitments to presence in NYC. I am generally aware of the following:

- Pinstripe Bowl - 6 years deal, 2014-2019
- Syracuse-Penn State at Met Life, 2013
- Syracuse-Notre Dame at MetLife, 2014 and 2016
- Syracuse's long term deal with MetLife
- Duke-UCLA at MSG, December 19, 2013
- Ga. Tech in the Barclays Center Classic, November 29-30, 2013
- Syracuse-St. John's at MSG, December 14, 2013
- Syracuse-Villanova at MSG, 2015-16 season

As far as using expansion to further this effort, I agree with Swofford that 15 seems good for now. That said, UConn would clearly be another school that could enhance a conference's presence in NYC. Part of the NYC TV market is actually in Connecticut. UConn is one of the 2 or 3 best athletic programs in the G5, and generally fits the ACC academic profile. That option is there, but it is not the time to pursue it.

Finally, I'm not sure that it is necessary to "win," however that might be measured. NYC is big enough for both the ACC and the B1G to dramatically improve the level of local interest in their conferences without stepping on each other's toes. Indeed, the efforts of both leagues might work together to create a general rise in local interest in college football to the benefit of both leagues. That's at a league level. At a school level, Syracuse really needs to move its football program ahead of Rutgers.

So you're saying if the NY Market is large enough for 2 NFL Teams, NBA Teams, NHL Teams & MLB Teams it is large enough for both the ACC/B1G to have a presence and make $$$...much like they are already doing with the New Era Pinstripe Bowl & Yankee Stadium...

(07-02-2013 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  Cincinnati does nothing in terms of NYC. Nobody outside of Cincinnati cares about them. I've lived in NW and NE Ohio and it's rare to see anything besides Ohio State or local school support. It's a good school, but seriously? No to Cincinnati, they're where they belong and I'd rather take UConn or even Temple before them if we HAD to expand.

Btw, to the people who diss WF and Duke: compare their stadium sizes to Cincy.

That will be all.

And UConn does nothing for football. It's in an even worse recruiting area than Syracuse, which is saying a lot. They play in a small off-campus stadium that they can't fill. They didn't sell out their 40k stadium in 2010, their best year ever. 24/7 lists 16 player profiles from CT for 2014.

In 2015 Cincinnati will have the same stadium capacity as UConn in an on campus stadium, plus they have access to a 65k NFL stadium 5 miles away from Nippert. 24/7 lists 191 player profiles from Ohio for 2014.

I know everybody is giddy about Swofford exposing the worst kept secret ever, that our latest expansion was really for basketball, but there is another side to this conference that cares about football, and Cincy is the best candidate to provide a boost to both.

(07-02-2013 05:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  Cincinnati does nothing in terms of NYC. Nobody outside of Cincinnati cares about them. I've lived in NW and NE Ohio and it's rare to see anything besides Ohio State or local school support. It's a good school, but seriously? No to Cincinnati, they're where they belong and I'd rather take UConn or even Temple before them if we HAD to expand.

Btw, to the people who diss WF and Duke: compare their stadium sizes to Cincy.

That will be all.

And UConn does nothing for football. It's in an even worse recruiting area than Syracuse, which is saying a lot. They play in a small off-campus stadium that they can't fill. They didn't sell out their 40k stadium in 2010, their best year ever. 24/7 lists 16 player profiles from CT for 2014.

In 2015 Cincinnati will have the same stadium capacity as UConn in an on campus stadium, plus they have access to a 65k NFL stadium 5 miles away from Nippert. 24/7 lists 191 player profiles from Ohio for 2014.

I know everybody is giddy about Swofford exposing the worst kept secret ever, that our latest expansion was really for basketball, but there is another side to this conference that cares about football, and Cincy is the best candidate to provide a boost to both.

You are entitled to that opinion, but I don't see the latest expansion being about basketball at all.

I see it being about BOTH football and basketball.

The last expansion in 2003 was all about football - there certainly was absolutely no basketball involved whatsoever. Precisely what did that gain the ACC?

For those of you that grew up in the 90s or only recently became aware that there was football played in the northeast Syracuse was a national football brand Baron prior to that and was for most of its existence from the 50s onward. Prior to the emergence of the Big East and the growth of Boeheim as a coach, SU was a local, not national, basketball program.

When football fell upon hard times luckily basketball was able to sustain our athletics department. But make no mistake about it, and Boeheim will tell you the same thing, SU is a football school. The main emphasis and initiatives are about football and trying to make it as successful as it once was.

Pitt is obviously more a football school than a basketball as is ND, even though they only joined 5/8ths, that 5/8ths will have way more impact on the league than their basketball - which is basically a decent regular season team but a bad NCAA team.

And Louisville's football is on the rise. It may never match their now blue-blood standing in basketball, but it won't be from trying.

Cheers,
Neil

"Win" =ACC Network + UConn basketball+ Cincy= More $$$$, content and more exposure.

(07-02-2013 06:00 PM)TerryD Wrote:  "Win" =ACC Network + UConn basketball+ Cincy= More $$$$, content and more exposure.

But adding UConn hoops means we have to add UConn football. UConn hoops would have to add a whole lot more than anybody else to offset the negative their football brings.

(07-02-2013 03:49 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 03:34 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I said:

" UConn, Navy and/or perhaps Cincinnati".

My point is that a war (declared/undeclared) has broken out between the ACC and the Big Ten for the Northeast (in particular NYC).

Who will win? What will it take to win? Does the ACC want to win?

Honest question...what would you win?

If you're going to start an ACC Network and you are positioning yourself to be picked up in the NYC/Northeast area, I get it an I'm all for it.

But it's not entirely clear what the B1G and ACC are fighting for. It's an area that doesn't give two flips about college football (outside ND maybe), which drives vastly disproportionate revenue.

The NY area schools were virtually the last picked on the playground. The previous conference anchored in that region imploded.

I'm not against making a move on NYC, but I hope it's a part of plan, particularly financially, that I've yet to see.

I'm actually very slightly intrigued by a UConn/Cinci expansion only as a way out of this horrid scheduling setup, but as a gambit to "solidify" the Northeast? I don't get it. It's like two guys in the desert stabbing at each other in a battle to control an empty well.

I hope there's a plan there, a money plan, but taking in further expansion is just too far to go with it.

It appears that the plan is to start an ACC Network and then try and get as many cable TV subscribers as possible. New York city is quite wealthy so it could draw quite a few additional advertising dollars. It appears that this will help all the schools get richer by creating larger revenues.
The fact that the ACC is really strong in basketball could really help the ACC network get cable subscribers in New York as basketball is really popular there.

I'd rather the ACC just holds pat at this point. Slow play UC and UConn. Neither would join the Big 12 over the ACC. Both would join the Big Ten and say F You to the ACC but maybe only UConn even has the chance to do that. The SEC likely wouldn't take either.

So just wait until WVU's grant of rights is close to expiring and invite them. They would definitely join. I think around that same time the Big Ten's grant of rights are expiring so invite Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland. ACC revenue would have to be very similar to Big Ten revenue for these 3 teams to even consider it, however. I'm also assuming the ACC has a network and that it would make adding Rutgers and even re-adding Maryland more palatable since I don't see either as huge draws otherwise and also Penn State would offset them somewhat.

I'm cool with a 16- or 18-team ACC. Either four 4-team divisions or two 9-team divisions. Admittedly, 16 teams would work better. And if the ACC went to 18, I'd probably even be in favor of adding UConn and UC to get to 20, making four 5-team divisions with 4 intradivisional games and one interdivisional games from each of the other 3 divisions. But that's a ways away, if ever.

=================

Parting shots: The sooner the ACC permanently leaves Greensboro for New York City the better. It can't happen fast enough.

(07-02-2013 05:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  Cincinnati does nothing in terms of NYC. Nobody outside of Cincinnati cares about them. I've lived in NW and NE Ohio and it's rare to see anything besides Ohio State or local school support. It's a good school, but seriously? No to Cincinnati, they're where they belong and I'd rather take UConn or even Temple before them if we HAD to expand.

Btw, to the people who diss WF and Duke: compare their stadium sizes to Cincy.

That will be all.

And UConn does nothing for football. It's in an even worse recruiting area than Syracuse, which is saying a lot. They play in a small off-campus stadium that they can't fill. They didn't sell out their 40k stadium in 2010, their best year ever. 24/7 lists 16 player profiles from CT for 2014.

In 2015 Cincinnati will have the same stadium capacity as UConn in an on campus stadium, plus they have access to a 65k NFL stadium 5 miles away from Nippert. 24/7 lists 191 player profiles from Ohio for 2014.

I know everybody is giddy about Swofford exposing the worst kept secret ever, that our latest expansion was really for basketball, but there is another side to this conference that cares about football, and Cincy is the best candidate to provide a boost to both.

Oddly enough, I think you are both 100% correct - which is why the ACC needs to stay at 15 for now.

Ohio is so utterly dominated by Ohio State that Cincinnati is barely an afterthought. However, Kaplony is correct about 2 important things:
(1) UC has access to 2 stadiums, one of which is on campus, and
(2) Ohio has almost 12X more football prospects than Connecticut.
That last number counts VERY heavily!

Connecticut has some advantages: (a) it's a state flagship, (b) it has good financial backing, © it's in a strong basketball-recruiting area, and (d) it's an easy drive from NYC.
Having said all that, Storrs nearly as far away from NYC as you can get and still be in Connecticut, and there is absolutely NO guarantee that the Huskies will continue success in basketball (unlike Cincinnati which has a long history of basketball success, UConn's history in the sport is modest prior to the hiring of Jim Calhoun. So far, they are a ONE-Coach wonder.*

* you could say the same about Va Tech football - and it would be true. We have yet to prove we can win with anyone else... neither has UConn

The problem is, 99% of Ohio recruits are going to pick OSU over Cincy, even when Cincy has BCS access. Good school, good program, amazing strides, but down the list.

Bottom-line: there is absolutely no way we should add two more programs unless it is a Georgetown/Navy combo, with the assumption Notre Dame is joining for football. Georgetown counteracts the Big 10's move and adds another tremendous school.

(07-02-2013 07:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 05:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 02:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  Cincinnati does nothing in terms of NYC. Nobody outside of Cincinnati cares about them. I've lived in NW and NE Ohio and it's rare to see anything besides Ohio State or local school support. It's a good school, but seriously? No to Cincinnati, they're where they belong and I'd rather take UConn or even Temple before them if we HAD to expand.

Btw, to the people who diss WF and Duke: compare their stadium sizes to Cincy.

That will be all.

And UConn does nothing for football. It's in an even worse recruiting area than Syracuse, which is saying a lot. They play in a small off-campus stadium that they can't fill. They didn't sell out their 40k stadium in 2010, their best year ever. 24/7 lists 16 player profiles from CT for 2014.

In 2015 Cincinnati will have the same stadium capacity as UConn in an on campus stadium, plus they have access to a 65k NFL stadium 5 miles away from Nippert. 24/7 lists 191 player profiles from Ohio for 2014.

I know everybody is giddy about Swofford exposing the worst kept secret ever, that our latest expansion was really for basketball, but there is another side to this conference that cares about football, and Cincy is the best candidate to provide a boost to both.

Oddly enough, I think you are both 100% correct - which is why the ACC needs to stay at 15 for now.

Ohio is so utterly dominated by Ohio State that Cincinnati is barely an afterthought. However, Kaplony is correct about 2 important things:
(1) UC has access to 2 stadiums, one of which is on campus, and
(2) Ohio has almost 12X more football prospects than Connecticut.
That last number counts VERY heavily!

Connecticut has some advantages: (a) it's a state flagship, (b) it has good financial backing, © it's in a strong basketball-recruiting area, and (d) it's an easy drive from NYC.
Having said all that, Storrs nearly as far away from NYC as you can get and still be in Connecticut, and there is absolutely NO guarantee that the Huskies will continue success in basketball (unlike Cincinnati which has a long history of basketball success, UConn's history in the sport is modest prior to the hiring of Jim Calhoun. So far, they are a ONE-Coach wonder.*

* you could say the same about Va Tech football - and it would be true. We have yet to prove we can win with anyone else... neither has UConn

The difference is the Commonwealth of Virginia has a lot of Football Talent and Virginia Tech has very good facilities and now a commitment to winning.

UConn, Georgetown.................GET REAL!

(07-02-2013 08:49 PM)XLance Wrote:  UConn, Georgetown.................GET REAL!

I seem to recall you pushing for SC and Vandy....ahem

(07-02-2013 08:38 PM)esayem Wrote:  The problem is, 99% of Ohio recruits are going to pick OSU over Cincy, even when Cincy has BCS access. Good school, good program, amazing strides, but down the list.

Yet they have accomplished more the past few years than the majority of the current ACC. Imagine what they could accomplish being in a second rate conference, rather than the 3rd rate ones they have been a part of.

Quote:Bottom-line: there is absolutely no way we should add two more programs unless it is a Georgetown/Navy combo, with the assumption Notre Dame is joining for football. Georgetown counteracts the Big 10's move and adds another tremendous school.

Adding Navy, even when paired with ND, is simply giving up in football.

Navy is going to find out the same thing that Army found out when it joined a conference, that it is a different world when you see the same faces each year rather than hand picking 9 games a year to get bowl eligible.

It doesn't matter though because what incentive does Notre Dame ever have to join? We have given them everything possible already for absolutely nothing in return, there is nothing else to up the ante.