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The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #61
RE: The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
(06-07-2013 01:51 AM)mistabinks Wrote:  Okay, after re-reviewing some bookmarked articles, watching a few online segments, and going back through some old stuff, here is my opinion on where we are at.

Because of the time crunch, the City of El Paso agreed to build a stadium for MountainStar by first pitch 2014. We made that commitment with no firm design plans. That was last year. Even today, we still do not have a final design plan.

In my opinion only, if somebody wants to ***** and moan about something, not having a final design plan is it.

That being said, how can a sensible person say we are over budget if an actual design plan is not completed. One would be terribly incorrect if they say certain aspects of the stadium are being tossed out because we are over budget.

-There is no official design. You cannot throw out an item if there is not concrete and official design that shows that item in the plans.

-Only 20% of the stadium has gone to bid. You can't be over budget if you don't know what the other 80% is going to cost.

Right now, regardless of how loud the squeaky wheel is, right now the only official status is we are going to spend 52.8 million on a baseball stadium. Nothing else is official.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

I just don't think a lot of people realize that we are building and designing at the same time. Something that the project manager said is not how they normally do things.

So it brings up to very important questions.

1. Are we going to end up over budget?

2. If not, what kind of stadium are we going to end up with?
06-08-2013 01:24 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-07-2013 01:27 AM)mistabinks Wrote:  
(06-06-2013 11:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Perhaps you don't like my arguments but the weakest argument is that only a handful of people were against building a park in the city hall location.

Thousands showed up for the pro ball park rallies.

Tens of people showed up for the anti ball park rally.

I will grant that the people against the ballpark have been louder in the media.

(06-06-2013 11:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  In case you haven't been paying attention to the mayoral race, the ballpark has basically been the issue that ruined Ortega's chances.

That is your opinion.

Something to chew on. How could Props 1 and 2 pass by such a large margin if the majority of people aren't willing to spend to move El Paso forward?

How come thousands of people showed up to support the ballpark but only tens of people showed up to protest it?

How come MountainStar has so far sold out all of their events?

You see the ballpark as a big overall issue. You are entitled to that opinion. My differs. Leeser is a popular man in El Paso. Ortega is paying for the sins of an unpopular (at times) Joyce Wilson. I think that is why the election went the way it did. That being said, I think Oscar has screwed the pooch by not being aggressive. I think the run off is going to be a lot closer than novices think.

That is your opinion.
06-08-2013 01:25 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Latest on stadium
Since you are going to be watching it again. You might want to make note of the fact that Susie Byrd clearly says that the construction cost of the stadium would be 50 million.

We know that is a lie because the construction cost is only supposed to be 40 million.
06-08-2013 01:27 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Latest on stadium
(06-08-2013 01:27 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Since you are going to be watching it again. You might want to make note of the fact that Susie Byrd clearly says that the construction cost of the stadium would be 50 million.

We know that is a lie because the construction cost is only supposed to be 40 million.

You are absolutely wrong. Dead wrong, my friend. Regardless of what she said, and how you interpreted what she said, you are dead wrong.

The baseball stadium is a 50 million dollar project. That became 52.8 million dollars because of the way the City does its funding. A small percentage, I believe 2%, has to be dedicated to the arts. There is also fee in selling bonds/certificates/acquiring the monies.

Again, that is the way the City of El Paso chooses to fund its projects.

Rep Holguin, knowing this and being a crab, tried to claim we were over budget because we are spending 52.8 instead of 50. He knows better. The City of El Paso chooses not to deduct the art funding and finance fees from the project's budget. This has always been the case.

Also, there is no final design plan. No one, not you, not me, not Joyce, not any of your books on downtown stadiums, can say how much of the budget is going to actual construction costs versus how much is going toward planning costs. There is no final design plan.

"They" did not lie. You are simply wrong.

The baseball stadium is going to cost 52.8 million dollars.
06-08-2013 04:36 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #65
RE: The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
(06-08-2013 01:24 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So it brings up to very important questions.

1. Are we going to end up over budget?

2. If not, what kind of stadium are we going to end up with?

Great questions. Neither can be answered at this time though. Things like the condition of the soil shouldn't be blamed on the project manager. Measurements, building costs, things of that nature can be. Rep Niland made a complete ass out of herself the day of that City Council meeting. Even SuperCrab Holguin wouldn't align with her. It's going to be a state of the art baseball stadium. Now if ten different people envisioned 10 different stadiums, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
06-08-2013 04:43 PM
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RUNVSFD MINER Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-06-2013 11:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 01:42 AM)RUNVSFD MINER Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 11:59 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 04:38 PM)RUNVSFD MINER Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 11:51 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm sure the stadium will do well and attendance will be good for a while. However, as with Cohen Stadium. I don't see it being a long term success.

The Diablos' descent in leagues, affiliation, player talent, facility aging, and location, were among many factors.

Totally different situations. If you don't see the difference, then I don't think you ever will.

Really? So this new stadium isn't going to age? The affiliation with the Padres is a good one? The location is good also?

1. This stadium will age just as quickly as Cohen did.

2. The Padres aren't the greatest team in the league.

3. Many people don't like the downtown location because of traffic and parking issues.

Geez, you keep making weak points. They are so bad, they don't even seem like responses to the previous post.

Anyway, you keep refering to "many people". Just like the handful of crazies that represented the "many people" against the ball park.

This conversation is pointless. Troll on. Maybe someone else will take the pointless bait.

Perhaps you don't like my arguments but the weakest argument is that only a handful of people were against building a park in the city hall location.

In case you haven't been paying attention to the mayoral race, the ballpark has basically been the issue that ruined Ortega's chances.

You are generalizing.

I've also stated Ortega may be done. But in case you didn't see the polls; most support the ballpark. You keep going from point a to b, to c, to d. weak arguments.

But there is definitely only a handful of Crazies. You should take pride in the fact that there are few of you, and that makes you a scarce commodity... like a bearded lady or something.

Here's to the Crazies!!!!
06-08-2013 05:20 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
I"m not one of the crazies. I never opposed the ballpark. Only the location.

It's not that I don't want triple A baseball. It's just that I know that it really isn't as significant as everyone is making out to be.

Even you would agree that city council screwed up the process.
06-09-2013 09:58 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #68
RE: The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
I would be happy with the ballpark that is in all the renditions.

I see two things happening though.

We are either going to have to increase the budget..........which is going to upset even more people.

Or we are not going to get what we though we were going to get.

Just as an aside.

I've heard that the new stadium was going to be 6 or 7 thousand.

Now I've been hearing as much as 9,500.

Do you know what the capacity is going to be?
06-09-2013 10:01 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Latest on stadium
Even the official city council documents that you can find online show that 10 million is for the design and 40 million is for construction.

Susie Byrd however is now saying construction cost will be 50 million.

The 1 million for the arts wasn't something they didn't know about. That is another 1 million that has to be spend even if it isn't part of the stadium.

The 800k in legal fees can be forgiven to some extent. However, given the way they brought this thing to the public, they should have expected to have legal fees.
06-09-2013 10:04 AM
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randaddyminer Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-09-2013 09:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I"m not one of the crazies. I never opposed the ballpark. Only the location.

It's not that I don't want triple A baseball. It's just that I know that it really isn't as significant as everyone is making out to be.

Even you would agree that city council screwed up the process.

Sure you were only against the location of the stadium 01-wingedeagle... Nobody in their right mind believes that your only gripe was about the location, so please stop playing that game... Remember you were gonna make your wife and daughter vote against the other 2 props. you lose fitbud, you lose
(This post was last modified: 06-09-2013 12:22 PM by randaddyminer.)
06-09-2013 12:21 PM
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RUNVSFD MINER Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-09-2013 09:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I"m not one of the crazies. I never opposed the ballpark. Only the location.

It's not that I don't want triple A baseball. It's just that I know that it really isn't as significant as everyone is making out to be.

Even you would agree that city council screwed up the process.

Crazy shet will be crazy.
06-09-2013 05:42 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-09-2013 09:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I"m not one of the crazies. I never opposed the ballpark. Only the location.

Fair enough.

(06-09-2013 09:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's not that I don't want triple A baseball. It's just that I know that it really isn't as significant as everyone is making out to be.

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.

(06-09-2013 09:58 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even you would agree that city council screwed up the process.

City Council? Or do you mean the City Manager? Or do you mean the Deputy Director in charge of the project. How about the mayor? Better yet, I think you meant "them" or "they." Liars, and all.
06-09-2013 06:25 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Latest on stadium
(06-09-2013 10:04 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Even the official city council documents that you can find online show that 10 million is for the design and 40 million is for construction.

Which I talked about a few weeks ago. Which is just a document and not a final design or formal budget.

(06-09-2013 10:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Susie Byrd however is now saying construction cost will be 50 million.

You are absolutely incorrect if you inferred that she is saying it is going to be 50 million in construction costs and another 10 million in design. She might have said it. You might have read and/or heard it. It is not what she actually meant or implied.

(06-09-2013 10:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The 1 million for the arts wasn't something they didn't know about. That is another 1 million that has to be spend even if it isn't part of the stadium.

Understood but that is the way the City of El Paso chooses to budget their projects. That is not exclusive to the ballpark.

(06-09-2013 10:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The 800k in legal fees can be forgiven to some extent. However, given the way they brought this thing to the public, they should have expected to have legal fees.

Again, understood, but you can't expect them to deduct that from the 50 million. What if the legal fees ended up being 15 million? Should we only expect a 35 million dollar stadium?
06-09-2013 06:37 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #74
RE: The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
(06-09-2013 10:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Or we are not going to get what we though we were going to get.

Which is my point. Asked 10 different people and you will probably get 10 different expectations. Even the renditions are not very specific.

(06-09-2013 10:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I've heard that the new stadium was going to be 6 or 7 thousand.

Now I've been hearing as much as 9,500.

Do you know what the capacity is going to be?

The only places I have heard 6 or 7 thousand is from message boards and facebook comments. People on staff have always said 9 thousand.
06-09-2013 06:39 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #75
RE: The Official Downtown Baseball Stadium Discussion Thread
(06-09-2013 06:39 PM)mistabinks Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 10:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Or we are not going to get what we though we were going to get.

Which is my point. Asked 10 different people and you will probably get 10 different expectations. Even the renditions are not very specific.

(06-09-2013 10:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I've heard that the new stadium was going to be 6 or 7 thousand.

Now I've been hearing as much as 9,500.

Do you know what the capacity is going to be?

The only places I have heard 6 or 7 thousand is from message boards and facebook comments. People on staff have always said 9 thousand.

I did some research and in fact, El Paso times has said that they stadium will be between 7 and 9 thousand.

I also looked at Pacific League stadium capacities and they are all except one stadium above 9 thousand.

If we have to give up some stuff to stay under budget, perhaps we should just put more seats.
06-09-2013 11:20 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Latest on stadium
I don't know what Susie Byrd meant to say and I don't know how you would know either.

All I know is that she said the construction cost would be 50 million.
06-09-2013 11:23 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
When you compare the process to how Oklahoma city did it. I think we would have had better support had we done it the way Oklahoma city did it.
06-09-2013 11:38 PM
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randaddyminer Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-09-2013 11:38 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  When you compare the process to how Oklahoma city did it. I think we would have had better support had we done it the way Oklahoma city did it.

we should have had support from the plastic structures lobbyist... Move along fit, your kind is holding the city back
06-10-2013 12:24 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Baseball Stadium Costs
(06-09-2013 11:38 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  When you compare the process to how Oklahoma city did it. I think we would have had better support had we done it the way Oklahoma city did it.

While I am not 100% familiar with how OKC did it, I can see where you are coming from. Then again, I know the position in the city was. There were legit concerns about acquiring the franchise if we didn't move quick. There were going to be some unhappy puppies either way.
06-10-2013 01:53 PM
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mistabinks Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Latest on stadium
(06-09-2013 11:23 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I don't know what Susie Byrd meant to say and I don't know how you would know either.

All I know is that she said the construction cost would be 50 million.

In that statement, construction costs includes the design and planning. No need to become Chicken Little and declare the sky is falling.

[Image: 1280403082_gob-and-lindsay-chicken-dance.gif]
06-10-2013 02:18 PM
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