(05-06-2013 12:28 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 11:43 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  You would need to add a couple of Western conferences as well - otherwise you are leaving out a huge chunk of the country.

WCC and Big Sky cover a huge chunk of terrority, as well as good basketball.

You alse have some political ramifications - Senators from Idaho/Montana/North and South Dakota, and to a lesser extent Arizona, Washington, Oregon, California all would not be happy with this set up.

UMKC/UNO? They are the type of program you would want to eliminate if you were trying to cut DI down.

I think UMKC and UNO have the potential to grow, simply because they are located in metro areas surrounded by a population desert. They may suck now, but in 10-20 years (when I see realignment on this scale happening), I think they'll be at that level.

On a state-level, I have teams from from most of the states, even though some are in basketball-only conferences. I think the only states left unrepresented are Alaska, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, and Wyoming.

However, I could see 6 football conferences and 6 basketball conferences. I was trying to give the football conferences exactly two thirds of the teams, so that they would have power in any voting scenario. However, it was absolutely necessary you could add:

Western conferences:
WCC: Current members + Long Beach State + New Mexico State + Denver + Seattle
Big Sky: Current members

Then you would have 96 football teams and 60 basketball-only teams. You would have somewhere between 12-24 auto bids, and probably enough teams for a 64 team tournament (with enough midmajor teams to satisfy anyone that wants to root for Cinderella).

Where does Hawaii Basketball go? They are in the Big West now.
Northeastern Flagship schools would be left out - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

The CAA has good basketball heritage, and with schools like Delaware, (and famous alumni like the Current VP, and a possible all Blue Hen presidental race in 2016 (Biden-Christie), it would be hard to leave them out.


And while they are not very good, leaving out the HBCU's would be tough.

Ivy League?


It gets tough to winnow DI down artificially and with the political ramifications of who gets left out.

I think the best way to winnow out DI is to raise the commitment levels to be DI.

(05-06-2013 12:39 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 12:28 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 11:43 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  You would need to add a couple of Western conferences as well - otherwise you are leaving out a huge chunk of the country.

WCC and Big Sky cover a huge chunk of terrority, as well as good basketball.

You alse have some political ramifications - Senators from Idaho/Montana/North and South Dakota, and to a lesser extent Arizona, Washington, Oregon, California all would not be happy with this set up.

UMKC/UNO? They are the type of program you would want to eliminate if you were trying to cut DI down.

I think UMKC and UNO have the potential to grow, simply because they are located in metro areas surrounded by a population desert. They may suck now, but in 10-20 years (when I see realignment on this scale happening), I think they'll be at that level.

On a state-level, I have teams from from most of the states, even though some are in basketball-only conferences. I think the only states left unrepresented are Alaska, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, and Wyoming.

However, I could see 6 football conferences and 6 basketball conferences. I was trying to give the football conferences exactly two thirds of the teams, so that they would have power in any voting scenario. However, it was absolutely necessary you could add:

Western conferences:
WCC: Current members + Long Beach State + New Mexico State + Denver + Seattle
Big Sky: Current members

Then you would have 96 football teams and 60 basketball-only teams. You would have somewhere between 12-24 auto bids, and probably enough teams for a 64 team tournament (with enough midmajor teams to satisfy anyone that wants to root for Cinderella).

Where does Hawaii Basketball go? They are in the Big West now.
Northeastern Flagship schools would be left out - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

The CAA has good basketball heritage, and with schools like Delaware, (and famous alumni like the Current VP, and a possible all Blue Hen presidental race in 2016 (Biden-Christie), it would be hard to leave them out.


And while they are not very good, leaving out the HBCU's would be tough.

Ivy League?


It gets tough to winnow DI down artificially and with the political ramifications of who gets left out.

I think the best way to winnow out DI is to raise the commitment levels to be DI.

Are you serious about Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

Also, if Binghamton was so important most would know how to spell it.

(05-06-2013 01:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 12:39 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 12:28 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 11:43 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  You would need to add a couple of Western conferences as well - otherwise you are leaving out a huge chunk of the country.

WCC and Big Sky cover a huge chunk of terrority, as well as good basketball.

You alse have some political ramifications - Senators from Idaho/Montana/North and South Dakota, and to a lesser extent Arizona, Washington, Oregon, California all would not be happy with this set up.

UMKC/UNO? They are the type of program you would want to eliminate if you were trying to cut DI down.

I think UMKC and UNO have the potential to grow, simply because they are located in metro areas surrounded by a population desert. They may suck now, but in 10-20 years (when I see realignment on this scale happening), I think they'll be at that level.

On a state-level, I have teams from from most of the states, even though some are in basketball-only conferences. I think the only states left unrepresented are Alaska, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, and Wyoming.

However, I could see 6 football conferences and 6 basketball conferences. I was trying to give the football conferences exactly two thirds of the teams, so that they would have power in any voting scenario. However, it was absolutely necessary you could add:

Western conferences:
WCC: Current members + Long Beach State + New Mexico State + Denver + Seattle
Big Sky: Current members

Then you would have 96 football teams and 60 basketball-only teams. You would have somewhere between 12-24 auto bids, and probably enough teams for a 64 team tournament (with enough midmajor teams to satisfy anyone that wants to root for Cinderella).

Where does Hawaii Basketball go? They are in the Big West now.
Northeastern Flagship schools would be left out - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

The CAA has good basketball heritage, and with schools like Delaware, (and famous alumni like the Current VP, and a possible all Blue Hen presidental race in 2016 (Biden-Christie), it would be hard to leave them out.


And while they are not very good, leaving out the HBCU's would be tough.

Ivy League?


It gets tough to winnow DI down artificially and with the political ramifications of who gets left out.

I think the best way to winnow out DI is to raise the commitment levels to be DI.

Are you serious about Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

Also, if Binghamton was so important most would know how to spell it.

Yes - if entire states are left out of DI (and not by choice), then you create potentially rocky political turmoil, and threats from Congress. Leave too many states out, then you open up a real can of worms.

(05-06-2013 12:39 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Where does Hawaii Basketball go? They are in the Big West now.
Northeastern Flagship schools would be left out - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

The CAA has good basketball heritage, and with schools like Delaware, (and famous alumni like the Current VP, and a possible all Blue Hen presidental race in 2016 (Biden-Christie), it would be hard to leave them out.


And while they are not very good, leaving out the HBCU's would be tough.

Ivy League?


It gets tough to winnow DI down artificially and with the political ramifications of who gets left out.

I think the best way to winnow out DI is to raise the commitment levels to be DI.

Unfortunately, members of following conferences would not make the jump to "new D1:"

Football conferences:
C-USA
MAC
Sun Belt
WAC

FCS conferences:
Big South
MEAC
Northeast Conference
OVC
Patriot League
Southern Conference
SWAC

Non-football affiliated conferences:
American East
Atlantic Sun
Big West
Great West
The Summit League

Simply put, these conferences are what the rest of D1 is trying to break off from. The vast majority of the teams are too small or too poor. The flagship institutions in the states that are left out are in that category. There just are not enough people to milk profits out of those areas (and the low population states of the Mid-West). That may sound harsh, but it is just the nature of the conference realignment game. At some point, you have to draw a line.

Hawaii basketball would likely stay with the WCC. The CAA is questionable; it loses a lot of its strength without George Mason. I guess it would be possible to add them, but they'd have to be an amalgamation of current CAA members and selected schools from the other NE conferences.

The Ivy League is a harder question. I don't think they really have D1 strength, but they have D1 level prestige and influence. Unlike other schools, they have the money, they just don't want to focus on athletics. Obviously the football will not be D1 level, but a few of the basketball schools are close. But unfortunately, this move is about cutting the chaff from D1, and the Ivy League schools are usually near the bottom (24th last year).

At best, I think you could have 8 basketball only conferences, 6 with 12 teams, the Ivy League with 8, and the CAA-hybrid with 16 (so 96 teams, equal with football conferences).

So:
Ivy League: Current members
CAA+: Current members + Albany/Siena/Stony Brook + Maine + New Hampshire + Vermont + Boston U?

Either way, past this point you are starting to add teams that will not be competitive and will not add value.

Note - Hawaii is in the Big West, not WCC. But adding them to MWC for all sports solves that issue.

I am not disagreeing that DI is too big - 360 schools is too many.

Does Louisana or South Carolina need 12 DI schools? Conn 9? North Carolina 18? Probably not.

Blah, blah, blah...

Hear me now, believe me later: the most important "team" in any breakaway scenario (assuming the "break" will be from the NCAA...which it would have to be) is the legendary IRS. Despite having coast-to-coast coverage, their fan support is miserable. But they define the word "dynasty."

(05-06-2013 01:12 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 01:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 12:39 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 12:28 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 11:43 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  You would need to add a couple of Western conferences as well - otherwise you are leaving out a huge chunk of the country.

WCC and Big Sky cover a huge chunk of terrority, as well as good basketball.

You alse have some political ramifications - Senators from Idaho/Montana/North and South Dakota, and to a lesser extent Arizona, Washington, Oregon, California all would not be happy with this set up.

UMKC/UNO? They are the type of program you would want to eliminate if you were trying to cut DI down.

I think UMKC and UNO have the potential to grow, simply because they are located in metro areas surrounded by a population desert. They may suck now, but in 10-20 years (when I see realignment on this scale happening), I think they'll be at that level.

On a state-level, I have teams from from most of the states, even though some are in basketball-only conferences. I think the only states left unrepresented are Alaska, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, and Wyoming.

However, I could see 6 football conferences and 6 basketball conferences. I was trying to give the football conferences exactly two thirds of the teams, so that they would have power in any voting scenario. However, it was absolutely necessary you could add:

Western conferences:
WCC: Current members + Long Beach State + New Mexico State + Denver + Seattle
Big Sky: Current members

Then you would have 96 football teams and 60 basketball-only teams. You would have somewhere between 12-24 auto bids, and probably enough teams for a 64 team tournament (with enough midmajor teams to satisfy anyone that wants to root for Cinderella).

Where does Hawaii Basketball go? They are in the Big West now.
Northeastern Flagship schools would be left out - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

The CAA has good basketball heritage, and with schools like Delaware, (and famous alumni like the Current VP, and a possible all Blue Hen presidental race in 2016 (Biden-Christie), it would be hard to leave them out.


And while they are not very good, leaving out the HBCU's would be tough.

Ivy League?


It gets tough to winnow DI down artificially and with the political ramifications of who gets left out.

I think the best way to winnow out DI is to raise the commitment levels to be DI.

Are you serious about Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as a good chunk of New York (Albany/Stony Brook/Binghampton).

Also, if Binghamton was so important most would know how to spell it.

Yes - if entire states are left out of DI (and not by choice), then you create potentially rocky political turmoil, and threats from Congress. Leave too many states out, then you open up a real can of worms.

I'm sure the political clout of Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont has the entire nation quaking in their boots...

As for New York, Syracuse has the state covered. The rest of the NY State will either root for them, or spend their time worrying about more important issues, like making sure the rent is paid and that everyone in the family has food in their bellies...

(05-06-2013 07:45 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Instead of a breakaway with new leagues...lets just institute new guidelines.

How about your league or as an independant must average 25 or 30k actual turnstile count. Attendance is the easiest and most accurate way I know to determine support. I think we would see MWC and AAC included in it. Once that happens we'll have closer to 85 teams. I think it is healthier to include more. Army, Navy and Air Force will have to decide which way to go. Personally I want to include them.

In 1982, the major football schools broke away and formed the CFA, and that consisted of about 65 schools. While that was 30 years ago, I do not think much has changed: I do not think that the schools with the most power, the elites like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, and about 10 others will be willing to divide that money 85 ways. They will keep the number at around 64.

And, they would not permit the replacement of long-time rivals, like say Vanderbilt and Northwestern, with non-P5 that have higher attendance.

(05-06-2013 01:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 07:45 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Instead of a breakaway with new leagues...lets just institute new guidelines.

How about your league or as an independant must average 25 or 30k actual turnstile count. Attendance is the easiest and most accurate way I know to determine support. I think we would see MWC and AAC included in it. Once that happens we'll have closer to 85 teams. I think it is healthier to include more. Army, Navy and Air Force will have to decide which way to go. Personally I want to include them.

In 1982, the major football schools broke away and formed the CFA, and that consisted of about 65 schools. While that was 30 years ago, I do not think much has changed: I do not think that the schools with the most power, the elites like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, and about 10 others will be willing to divide that money 85 ways. They will keep the number at around 64.

And, they would not permit the replacement of long-time rivals, like say Vanderbilt and Northwestern, with non-P5 that have higher attendance.

That was just for a TV deal. They were still members of the NCAA and were still Division 1. The CFA broke up when individual conferences began to negotiate TV contracts.

(05-06-2013 02:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 01:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-06-2013 07:45 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Instead of a breakaway with new leagues...lets just institute new guidelines.

How about your league or as an independant must average 25 or 30k actual turnstile count. Attendance is the easiest and most accurate way I know to determine support. I think we would see MWC and AAC included in it. Once that happens we'll have closer to 85 teams. I think it is healthier to include more. Army, Navy and Air Force will have to decide which way to go. Personally I want to include them.

In 1982, the major football schools broke away and formed the CFA, and that consisted of about 65 schools. While that was 30 years ago, I do not think much has changed: I do not think that the schools with the most power, the elites like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, and about 10 others will be willing to divide that money 85 ways. They will keep the number at around 64.

And, they would not permit the replacement of long-time rivals, like say Vanderbilt and Northwestern, with non-P5 that have higher attendance.

That was just for a TV deal. They were still members of the NCAA and were still Division 1. The CFA broke up when individual conferences began to negotiate TV contracts.

Yes, but i think the CFA gives a good idea of the number of schools the power-elites would be willing to include in their club, if they decided to leave the NCAA entirely.

I would envision that new entity being comprised of all P5 members. Maybe, just maybe, room would be carved out for one or two non-P5 that have shown exceptional drawing power or performance, but that would be it.